We should allow 8 shots in USPSA

[latech15]

If 8 shots were allowed in 625 division.....I mean revo, I think they would need to be limited to minor scoring or it would just start a new arms race in the USPSA side of revoland.

An 8 shot scored minor against a 6 shot scored major makes the 6 shot obsolete.

Explain why it would be obsolete. A limited gun isn't obsolete just because there are open guns.

I personally think that more people would shoot revo if it weren't SO hard to do so. Stages are 8 shot neutral, not six shot. You could, theoretically, eliminate standing reloads with a revo.

[mrmetalweld57]

Why would you want to make Revolver more like the other divisions? Doesn't make any sense to me.

If we had two revolver classes, then I could shoot totally alone instead of one other person in my division.

I may be wrong, but I think if there was a open division, alot more people would shoot it. I think people like me that have problems seeing open sights because of age would think about it. And the somewhat slower pace with an open revolver verses a open semi-auto would be appealing. The eight shot would make it more appealing to shoot uspsa courses that are generally set up single stack friendly.

[Tom E]

Explain why it would be obsolete. A limited gun isn't obsolete just because there are open guns.

Only because they're in a separate class. On an 8 shot neutral cof, 8 vs 6 favors 8. The 6 shooter being major doesn't help enough to offset the extra reloads. Mike's King of Revo match had 8 shots one day, 6 shots the other. Same shooters. I was curious and figured the scores as 8 shot's minor and 6 shot's major for comparison. The 6's lost decisively. I was shooting when open guns were first getting optics and the first double stack .45's were appearing. My single stack .45 Open gun (that today would be a legal single stack) got obsoleted in short order and in fact became a limited gun, to be obsoleted there too. An 8 shot revolver will do the same to six shooters.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Tom E

[rtr]

My thought is to allow 8 shot guns in the current revo division if they are minor. The idea being then we can add some diversity instead of the only competitive guns being 625s. But if 8 shot minor guns and 6 shot major guns aren't competitive with each other then I guess it's a nonstarter.

It's just the an 8 shot minor revo is competitive in ICORE and Steel Challenge, would be nice for it to be competitive in USPSA revolver.

It seems to me that revolver division could really benefit from more participation and this is a way to accomplish it. Otherwise for folks to shoot in revo they have to buy a 625, not something I want to do.

[jhgtyre]

Shoot your 8 shot open revo in Open. I do it at smaller matches and have a good time. If you are a serious threat at winning your class/division/the match then obviously you might want to make other choices. Otherwise, have fun and run that wheelgun in the division that works best; Open (or production; you know what I mean).

-ld

[West Texas Granny]

I've never shot a revolver in competition, but that will soon change with a 627 I am getting.

I plan to shoot steel and ICORE with it.

But I can't really shoot USPSA with it, except maybe production.

Since revo attracts so few shooters why not try to get as many of them that are out there? By allowing 8 shot minor guns in USPSA recover division would there be more folks shooting revolver? Maybe I'm the only one but I think there would be others.

If you want to shoot 8 rounds then grab a 1911 and shoot single. Revolver is 6 rounds. Not 5, not 7 and not 8.

[Carmoney]

This is literally the exact same discussion that emerges at least every couple years here. Somebody starts it off and the same people generally say the same things they always do.

The USPSA Revo rules are exactly what we requested. With the help of one particular revo-friendly BOD member, we got just what the overwhelming majority of active wheelgunners (not a "vocal minority") here on this forum wanted, i.e. iron sights only, custom barrels OK, and 6 shots between reloads.

ICORE is not a strong argument in favor of changing the rules. Compared to USPSA, ICORE has a tiny anemic little membership base (of course, I'm one of them!) and doesn't even have a meaningful presence in the majority of states. People (largely from CA and AZ, but also some hard-core wheelers from various other places) flock to the IRC because it is known as a well-run, very fun, and prize-rich match. Create a stand-alone USPSA Revo Nationals, put together a great prize table (and not one where most of the loot is given away randomly), and the entries will pour in. Want to see guys like Sevigny and Jarrett pick up a wheelgun? Make it worth their while, and you'll see it happen.

As far as allowing 8-shot minor to compete alongside 6-shot major, I actually wouldn't mind seeing USPSA try it on a provisional basis--just like they did with Single-Stack. I personally feel that 8-shot minor and 6-shot major are much closer to parity than some of you guys seem to think. Keep in mind when Single-Stack was first proposed, lots of people cried bloody murder that the 10-shot minor would obsolete the 8-shot major. They were obviously wrong. I understand it's a little different here, but I'll guarantee you I can shoot most major USPSA matches about as well with my 625 scored major as I could with my 627 scored minor. At the higher levels of the game, points count a lot more than they do at the bottom. Having the choice, I think it would become stage-design-dependent from match to match as to which gun I decided to campaign.

Creating an Open Revolver Division in USPSA is not a good idea. There are literally only a few dozen people in the country who bother shooting a tricked-up wheelgun on any kind of serious basis. To risk splintering USPSA Revo even further is to risk losing USPSA Revo altogether. Trust me on that. Particularly in an organization where lots of people who are in power view revolvers as "those silly guns with the round thing in the middle." Going from 20 revolvers to 14 Limited revos and 7 Open revos would technically increase the number of revolvers at a match, wouldn't it?--but that kind of technical increase would not be any kind of victory for our cause.

[rtr]

As far as allowing 8-shot minor to compete alongside 6-shot major, I actually wouldn't mind seeing USPSA try it on a provisional basis--just like they did with Single-Stack. I personally feel that 8-shot minor and 6-shot major are much closer to parity than some of you guys seem to think. Keep in mind when Single-Stack was first proposed, lots of people cried bloody murder that the 10-shot minor would obsolete the 8-shot major. They were obviously wrong. I understand it's a little different here, but I'll guarantee you I can shoot most major USPSA matches about as well with my 625 scored major as I could with my 627 scored minor. At the higher levels of the game, points count a lot more than they do at the bottom. Having the choice, I think it would become stage-design-dependent from match to match as to which gun I decided to campaign.

And I think it would increase revolver participation. I hope the BOD is listening.

[Neomet]

Mike, I was hoping you would pop in on this 'cause I know you shoot both and most of us are talking in the hypothetical. I have to say I am a bit surprised that 8 minor is as close to 6 major. I thought for sure a couple 8 round arrays would just kill ya with the standing reload. Goes to show what I know although I have to say you have some smoking reloads and it might make more of a difference for mere mortals, particularly guys like me who only shoots Real Man Division a couple times a year.

Just my .02, or heck maybe only .01.

[Chills1994]

Tom E back on the first page wrote:

An 8 shot scored minor against a 6 shot scored major makes the 6 shot obsolete.

Huh?!

That's weird!

I shoot a Beretta 92 FS in 9mm (at minor power factor) in the Limited division.

Anytime I come on here to recommend to some newbie that they should just load up their normally production division Glock 17/34 all the way up with ammo, and then shoot limited minor...well. jeesh!!! I can still hear the jeers, hoots, and howls all along the same line as "MINOR SUCKS!" They might as well be yelling "BLASPHEMER!" or "PHILLISTINE!" at me. You'd think I just kicked their puppy, or called their baby ugly.

Yeah, yeah, I know, it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison, and the way the USPSA game's rules are written, each array is capped off at 8 rounds max.

Someone up above mentioned something along the lines of "If you wanna shoot 8 rounds, then just shoot single stack!"

Well, actually it's 8+1 rounds.

Still having one in the pipe is a little different than running the gun completely empty at each array.

And while I am trying to compare/contrast with the single stack division, remember, in single stack if you shoot at minor power factor, most likely a 9mm, you can load up with 10+1. That doesn't seem all that different then letting the S&W 627's to shoot all 8 rounds at minor PF.

[71Commander]

Perhaps we should use pose this question to our USPSA Presidential candidates.....I would certainly shoot my open revolver more often if it was legal. (not shooting open)

Too late. I voted.

[Bubber]

To make this argument meaningful..One needs to compete with a revo.. Get with your local Match Director and see if you could run the 8 vs 6 debate on the stages (get your 8 shot and shoot it). As most people don't care what us revo guys actually do it should be agreeable to a MD as long as YOU are willing to do the work to see that it is run "correctly". The 8 shot would have to run 6 reload only on the Classifiers for them to count in the national bank. You then need to keep records of how many revo shooters you typically have and then document the change. Along with that the change in 6 shot competitiors. When this discussion started again two years ago I got the ok here at OKC to do just that. Whereas the Revo squad has grown over the two years nobody took up the challenge to shoot his 8 shot. Only because a few of the shooters saw how much fun we had shooting the revo and the comraderie that the group has. And there are many Auto guys that like to shoot with us because they are included in the ribbing and even mentoring as a lot of us have learned about the USPSA game. Please those that advocate the change.. Make the effort to get the numbers documented and shoot revos... I've talked enough Later rdd

[Carmoney]

Mike, I was hoping you would pop in on this 'cause I know you shoot both and most of us are talking in the hypothetical. I have to say I am a bit surprised that 8 minor is as close to 6 major. I thought for sure a couple 8 round arrays would just kill ya with the standing reload. Goes to show what I know although I have to say you have some smoking reloads and it might make more of a difference for mere mortals, particularly guys like me who only shoots Real Man Division a couple times a year.

Just my .02, or heck maybe only .01.

Rick, you'll notice I limited my comments to major matches. I say that because usually major matches have mostly well-designed stages that allow several options in attacking the stage. Usually there is a way to get through them with a 6-shooter without making too many flat-footed reloads.

I'll agree with you that 8-minor would be a pretty big advantage with the "shoot 4 targets, run up to the next spot, shoot 4 more targets" routine that you sometimes too often see at local matches.

Keep in mind also that it's not just the major/minor difference--625s and 25-2s reload (on average) a little faster than the 8-shots. With my Hearthcos and short colt brass, I'm almost as fast reloading my 627 as my 625. But not quite.

[Tom E]

Mike, I was hoping you would pop in on this 'cause I know you shoot both and most of us are talking in the hypothetical. I have to say I am a bit surprised that 8 minor is as close to 6 major. I thought for sure a couple 8 round arrays would just kill ya with the standing reload.

I'll agree with you that 8-minor would be a pretty big advantage with the "shoot 4 targets, run up to the next spot, shoot 4 more targets" routine that you sometimes too often see at local matches.

At "King of Revo" we shot a classifier. 2 8 rd arrays, 16 rds. Shoot one array, run to the other shooting box and shoot the second array. 2 reloads for a six shooter, 1 with an 8 shooter.

Numbers are Pts, Pen, Time, Hit Fact

With 6 shooters, iron sights:

Walsh, Cliff 79 0 13.85 5.7040

Carmoney, Mike 78 0 15.87 4.9149

With 8 shooters, iron sights:

Carmoney, Mike 80 0 10.71 7.4697

Walsh, Cliff 78 0 10.52 7.4144

Scoring is all major. Draw your own conclusions. Sorry I couldn't get the format better.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Tom E

[underlug]

Rick, you'll notice I limited my comments to major matches. I say that because usually major matches have mostly well-designed stages that allow several options in attacking the stage. Usually there is a way to get through them with a 6-shooter without making too many flat-footed reloads.

And this is the challenge which makes revolver a more interesting division to shoot. Back in the day, I argued that 8 shot arrays were unfair. I was an idiot.

Leave it alone. It is not broken. It does not need to be fixed. People just need to discover it.

[Dwain C. Baer]

Leave it alone. It is not broken. It does not need to be fixed. People just need to discover it.

Good point...I agree

[cliffwalsh]

At "King of Revo" we shot a classifier. 2 8 rd arrays, 16 rds. Shoot one array, run to the other shooting box and shoot the second array. 2 reloads for a six shooter, 1 with an 8 shooter.

Numbers are Pts, Pen, Time, Hit Fact

With 6 shooters, iron sights:

Walsh, Cliff 79 0 13.85 5.7040

Carmoney, Mike 78 0 15.87 4.9149

With 8 shooters, iron sights:

Carmoney, Mike 80 0 10.71 7.4697

2 Walsh, Cliff 78 0 10.52 7.4144

Scoring is all major. Draw your own conclusions. Sorry I couldn't get the format better.

Mike hit all A's with his 8 shot so his score would be the same in minor.

My 6 shot score is less than 80% of Mikes 8 shot score. Since I am 15% better than Mike, simple math would suggest that 8 shooters are 35% better than 6 shooters.

[gr7070]

If the intent is to increase revolver numbers, including 627s won't help much more than the example of 1 extra in 20 that Mike used. *Revolvers* are the problem with revolver participation. There's no other single item or even a few items that we could change on a revolver to overcome the revolver on the whole.

Most folks just like autos better. Revolvers have much smaller capacities, with much more difficult reloads, much longer and heavier triggers, more expensive ammo, old technology, they're more expensive and $1000 N-frames are that much more expensive than the $700 L-frames, the revolvers "need" upgrades, on and on.

Allowing for an 8 round revolver improves only one of those many, many detractors and really it doesn't improve it all that much. Sure it puts it almost on par with the 8+1 1911s, but let's face it, 8 rd 1911s aren't nearly as popular as other autos in the gun world - the 8-round 1911s are like revolvers where to some degree only 1911-guys shoot them as only revolver-guys shoot revolvers.

While the 627 is somewhat popular (for a revolver) many revolver shooters don't even own, essentially, the lone 8-shot revolver. In addition, those that do like the 627 many of them are self-defense owners of the snubby version. They're not competitors.

It's a great gun, and I think it would be great fun to have a place in IDPA/USPSA for them to compete with, but it would be to the detriment of revolver, not their betterment.

Edited August 18, 2011 by gr7070

[mrmetalweld57]

I just don't like excluding a segment of guns from being in revolver class because they have more than six holes in the cylinder. These are NOT open class guns. They ARE revolvers. We didn't buy 8 shooters to fire six shots. With how expensive things are nowadays, I can't help but look at how much cheaper it wood be to practice too. I do like the idea of a trial period for 8-minor.

[cliffwalsh]

I just don't like excluding a segment of guns from being in revolver class because they have more than six holes in the cylinder. These are NOT open class guns. They ARE revolvers. We didn't buy 8 shooters to fire six shots. With how expensive things are nowadays, I can't help but look at how much cheaper it wood be to practice too. I do like the idea of a trial period for 8-minor.

With the 8 round array rule, an 8 shot revo can run very close to a production gun or L-10. Much closer than an 6 round gun can run with the 8's. The production rules now allow revos to wear their ammo in the front too. I don't see what is stopping anyone who wants to shoot their 8 shooters.

From 8 to 10 is a 20% increase, 6 to 8 is a 33% increase. Just saying.

[jhgtyre]

This always plays out the same. The search feature may help you find the old threads with all the same old arguments. This one isn't going anywhere so I am closing it.

-Larry Drake

The Moderating Team

[jhgtyre]

This always plays out the same. The search feature may help you find the old threads with all the same old arguments. This one isn't going anywhere so I am closing it.

-Larry Drake

The Moderating Team

Bubber fixed you guys up. Here is the link to the old thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=109154&st=0