The disabled shooter. Do they/we have a place in shooting

[EkuJustice]

BGSL is very accommodating in that regard.

[Nik Habicht]

How is having to place mags at the hips or back a "unacceptable" position? If you want to shoot and compete in those classes then you have to follow the same rules as everyone else, regardless of your disability.

I don't think that's the message we want to send. If competitors can compete safely, and within the confines of the rule book, then they may participate in any division. We have a couple of different places in the rulebook that address handicapped shooters, and how to accommodate them.

5.2.9 Competitors deemed by the Range Master to be significantly disabled may be given special dispensation in relation to the type and/or placement of their holster and related equipment, and the Range Master will remain the final authority in respect of the safety and suitability of using such equipment at USPSA matches.

5.2.9 deals specifically with the holster and allied equipment position -- we've had handicapped shooters who have played the game, often with gear they designed in order to be able to safely participate. Since no two disabilities are the same, there needs to be some leeway for interpretation that is customized to the individual need of the handicapped shooter.

Since there are potential safety concerns with some gear, there also needs to be some leeway. Range Masters should be the most experienced range officials at a match -- giving them that authority and responsibility seems appropriate to me.

[Nik Habicht]

Reasonable accommodation is a two way street.

+1. I think a handicapped shooter has to have reasonable expectations. You're presumably shooting for fun and to challenge yourself, not to try to outrun the 20 yr old track star. If competing means that instead of shooting Production or SS you need to go to Limited or Open to accommodate a non-standard holster position, where's the harm? You're still shooting, you're still competing, and you're still challenging yourself.

I'm not willing to tell a handicapped shooter that he is limited in choice of division, for a holster and pouch position compliance issue, especially since 5.2.9 requires an RM to evaluate the situation, if asked....

[pvhendrix]

Your just a big softie!

Of course I am.

But don't tell anybody. It'll just be our little secret.

Hey Mark,

I think I'll post this on the internet. You 'ol softie.

[atbarr]

BGSL is very accommodating in that regard.

[Sarge]

West Texas Granny WTG,

I have to get this off my chest, sorry. You seem to pop in once in a while and post along these same lines. I am truly sorry for what physical limitations you may have but it is not up to this or any sport to change the way we do business. While I think twodownzero's comments seemed a little harsh I somewhat see his point.

If you take the time to read the rules instead of always finding ways to circumvent them or tell us how silly they are you would be much happier. Or you would shoot another game.

I don't know what would happen if I ever got injured and could not compete by the rules. Oh I remember, I would have to give it up and shoot steel or bowling pins.

I generally don't like different rule enforcement for different levels of matches but at local matches I see no reason to make accomodations to shooters with limitations. We have an older gentleman as well as a not so old gentleman that can not hear the beeper at all. They have to be tapped on the shoulder to start them. I am certain their times are not accurate as it is not easy to tap and start the timer perfectly every time. But since they, like me, are near the bottom in stats, I feel just fine enabling them to shoot our matches.

When making accommodations starts giving a significant advantage then I have a problem. Such as the case of a shooter with bad vision shooting optics in Production. Or a shooter who wears mags in front of his hip bone. That is not fair to the other Production shooters.

Along the lines of what AT posted. We have a shooter who can't raise his arms overhead like reaching for a box which is occasionally required. I was ROing him and told him he had to reach higher. He turned and said, this is as good as it gets. I said fine and let him shoot. I knew he was not going to take home any prize money so it made little difference. But he is there every match giving it his best and doing his best to play within the rules.

WTG, my suggestion is to find a Division you can compete in legally, even if disadvantaged by your current equipment. Then gradually optimize your equipment to meet the Division requirements instead of trying to find ways to make the Divisions to meet YOUR needs.

I shot Production for a few years and wanted so bad to move to limited but my eyes were never going to allow me to keep in the game. My option was to shoot Open. It was not my option of choice at the time but it was my only option for the long run. So I went from top ten finishes locally in Production to next to last in Open. Does that suck? You bet! But that is how the system works.

[Gary Stevens]

This is interesting. Just this week I have been involved in a discussion about a hypothetical one armed shooter. This shooter would not be able to do things like pull a rope to hold open a shooting port, or pull a rope to reveal a target that remained as long as he pulled the rope.

The concensus was that the staff would do whatever it took to give the shooter the opportunity to shoot the course safely. That might mean propping the shooting port open, or propping the hidden target in the revealed position so the shooter could engage it.

All of these things, no problem. I also don't believe any "penalty" should be applied as they have already received a much more sever penalt in life.

However, selecting a Division that requires one to do physical things, like reach behind the hipbone, and then requesting a disability judgment call is a little beyond me.

This is not bowling where I get extra points before I ever throw the first ball. If I had a severe handicap, such as one arm, I would probably shoot Open where I had minimal reloading, and an optic sight to help me. What I wouldn't select is Single Stack or Production where you have to reload everytime your foot moves.

Our sport requires us to make choices all the time. It seems to me that the Division you choose is the Division you choose.

[Nik Habicht]

Our sport requires us to make choices all the time. It seems to me that the Division you choose is the Division you choose.

Gary,

how do you reconcile that with 5.2.9? What if said one-armed shooter wants to compete in Single-Stack or Production, because that's where the local talent is deepest? What if he wants to compete with his two best friends for High-B? What if -- in order to be able to reload, he needs to have mag pouches mounted at the centerline, bullets to the front, to execute a onehanded reload?

I understand that you'd choose open. Why should a person with a handicap have less of a choice of divisions than I do? I'll take this seriously when a handicapped competitor beats the entire supersquad at Nationals and they, to a man/woman, tell me that it's only because of the dispensation afforded by an RM under 5.2.9......

Somehow, I don't think that would happen....

[twodownzero]

Our sport requires us to make choices all the time. It seems to me that the Division you choose is the Division you choose.

Gary,

how do you reconcile that with 5.2.9? What if said one-armed shooter wants to compete in Single-Stack or Production, because that's where the local talent is deepest? What if he wants to compete with his two best friends for High-B? What if -- in order to be able to reload, he needs to have mag pouches mounted at the centerline, bullets to the front, to execute a onehanded reload?

I understand that you'd choose open. Why should a person with a handicap have less of a choice of divisions than I do? I'll take this seriously when a handicapped competitor beats the entire supersquad at Nationals and they, to a man/woman, tell me that it's only because of the dispensation afforded by an RM under 5.2.9......

Somehow, I don't think that would happen....

This isn't a heads-up game. If it was, I might agree with you. So long as we have classes AND divisions, I would oppose any effort to liberalize the rules such as to give anyone, handicapped or not, a competitive advantage against everyone else.

I once learned that I no long had the physical ability to serve in my nation's army. Was it a tough day for me? You bet it was! But I didn't ask them to change the Army so I could serve. I packed my gear and took an honorable discharge. It wasn't easy. I can't imagine why we wouldn't expect the same of others.

That day changed my life and career plans, by the way. I loved the military. My body just said no. I fail to see how this is different in any meaningful way. If you can't meet the division requirements, you should be bumped to a division in which you can satisfy those requirements. If this is unacceptable, there are other shooting sports that aren't as athletic as ours.

Using the fact that the person is unlikely to win just invites more local rules, which we have too many of already. The idea of the rule book is to have ONE set of rules under which everyone competes.

Anyone who thinks that handicapped people need a special accommodation needs to meet Tom Drazy, who, btw, is a master in Open the last time I checked.

[bdpaz]

Why should a person with a handicap have less of a choice of divisions than I do?

How do you define a handicap? There is a wide spectrum of mobility from the one-armed shooter to the limber long armed shooter who can reach behind his back and draw with his weak hand. Shooting single stack I can carry six magazines and have no trouble reaching them all. If another person can only reach four does he or she get to carry two in front of their hip?

Division requirements are known up front and I think it is condescending to tell the "handicapped" shooter they don't have to follow the rules because they aren't going to do well anyway. Everyone, whether officially designated as handicapped or not, has strengths and weaknesses and they deal with them. If a shooter doesn't have to follow the same rules as his two best friends is he really competing with them for High B?

We aren't talking about finding ways to let everyone participate - that clearly is not an issue as shown by all the examples of accommodating various physical limitations. We are talking about competing in a game where there is a winner and that can only work when everyone plays by the same rules.

Edited July 28, 2011 by bdpaz

[West Texas Granny]

Look I admit I can be abrasive and a bit in ones face. That's just how I am. It's how I learn. Now I've mellowed quite a bit since I took up shooting a few years ago.

Yea I want to win. Who doesn't. I mean isn't that why we keep score. Yet I realize that it may take me 60-70 seconds to do a stage when everyone else is getting it done in 15-20 seconds. It ticks me off and while I should just accept things as they are but I can't and won't. Yea I'm hard headed but its genetic so there is not much I can do about that. My attitude may be because of my initial experiences with our local MD and his comments about me not helping to setup. I can shoot or setup but not both. Its been a thorn in my side that I just can't seem to get rid of. I know I should let it go but that wound never seems to heal. Anyway...

I could very well be back in the Bluegrass of Kentucky in another year or so since that's where all the family is. Maybe get a boat and just park myself on the river and drown some worms and if I'm too lazy to get some worms I'll just float a bobber in the water, have a snack and beverage (ALE8 dang I miss those and beer cheese too). Could use some decent country ham too. Maybe I need to get back home sooner.

[atbarr]

I could very well be back in the Bluegrass of Kentucky in another year or so since that's where all the family is.

WTG, check out http://bgslinc.com/ if you move close to Lexington.

[818-DVC]

Interesting points. I have range of motion issues in my right wrist and no supination, recent shoulder surgery, I am legally blind in 1 eye, and half my skeleton is held together by pins. I try as hard to do the best of MY ability. I'm not out to win area matches and happy to take the procedural if I absolutely can't do something, or possibly hurt myself even more.

I don't see TGO limping around asking for special treatment, and this is his profession. I highly doubt I will ever reach Rob's level due to my handicaps and just accept it. Makes it more fun to me. If your never going to reach the professional GM level, what do you need to piss and moan over points for?

If you are a D shooter because you have physical limitations, accept your fate and enjoy it. I never was a great shooter, and I am even worse after my recent surgery. it doesn't stop me from having a great time regardless of where I stand overall. As Clint Eastwood said "A man has to accept his limitations" has become a mantra for me.

JL

[spanky]

For example, I have seen pics and heard stories about the shooter who had a rig build for himself that held his mags upright by the basepad. He pushed the gun down onto the mag and then forward to release the mag from the holder. And off he went shooting with one arm.

And he shoots the snot out of most people that are shooting freestyle.

[Nik Habicht]

Anyone who thinks that handicapped people need a special accommodation needs to meet Tom Drazy, who, btw, is a master in Open the last time I checked.

I could be wrong, but I think Tom has both arms and hands.....

This isn't about the success stories of handicapped shooters who soar. It's a question of access to the game, something that founders were clearly concerned about a bit.....

1. Practical competition is open to all reputable persons without regard to occupation. It may specifically not be limited to public servants.

(I know, they wanted to keep the game open to civilians and non-law enforcement. Still can't get over those first eight words....)

So, we're o.k. with building steps for Junior, or lowering ports; with handicapped penalties for not being able to comply with some part of the stage, with not assessing any penalties on weakhanded strings for a one handed shooter, but we draw the line at allowing a magpouch to move for a one-handed shooter, while allowing a different gun position for female shooters in SS Division? So we like women more than the handicapped?

Wow!

I don't think so.....

[Nik Habicht]

We aren't talking about finding ways to let everyone participate - that clearly is not an issue as shown by all the examples of accommodating various physical limitations.

I think we are talking about that. The different divisions are essentially 6 different ways of playing the same game; variations on a theme, but certainly not identical games.

Once upon a time it was a one division game, and that division was open for a little while. Spin that around -- what if the game was only one division and the name was SS?

[atbarr]

Interesting points. I have range of motion issues in my right wrist and no supination, recent shoulder surgery, I am legally blind in 1 eye, and half my skeleton is held together by pins. I try as hard to do the best of MY ability. I'm not out to win area matches and happy to take the procedural if I absolutely can't do something, or possibly hurt myself even more.

I don't see TGO limping around asking for special treatment, and this is his profession. I highly doubt I will ever reach Rob's level due to my handicaps and just accept it. Makes it more fun to me. If your never going to reach the professional GM level, what do you need to piss and moan over points for?

If you are a D shooter because you have physical limitations, accept your fate and enjoy it. I never was a great shooter, and I am even worse after my recent surgery. it doesn't stop me from having a great time regardless of where I stand overall. As Clint Eastwood said "A man has to accept his limitations" has become a mantra for me.

JL

Well said.

[bdpaz]

We aren't talking about finding ways to let everyone participate - that clearly is not an issue as shown by all the examples of accommodating various physical limitations.

I think we are talking about that. The different divisions are essentially 6 different ways of playing the same game; variations on a theme, but certainly not identical games.

Once upon a time it was a one division game, and that division was open for a little while. Spin that around -- what if the game was only one division and the name was SS?

But it isn't one division, so you shouldn't make rules based on "what ifs". Those variations on a theme allow a shooter to pick one that best fits his interests and abilities. Say my eyes are bad and I can't use iron sights but I want to shoot SS. Will you let me use an red dot optic in SS? If I understand your reasoning you should, because what if Open didn't exist?

You can't make the world fair - if someone can't follow the rules & restrictions they aren't going to win. Most all of us have some limitations on our abilities and don't ask for special treatment if it isn't necessary. If there are divisions where something is a problem and divisions where it isn't, you choose one that works for you.

(And I still get the feeling that you think this is about allowing everyone to play, where I and most of the others think it is about trying to win at a game even if you aren't suited for it. )

[Aglifter]

Honestly, this comes off as whining. My knees are pretty well toast, so I had to give up on strongman. Likewise, those "kneeling" stages can be a real B$*%h, and I'm slow as all get out - and some days, I just can't do them.

I agree w. the poster about jockeys, and NASCAR, its a sport. Sports are fair when rules are strictly followed, and evenly implemented.

If you can't draw effectively from behind your hip, its unfortunate, but life isn't fair, and deal w. it. If we let this type of thinking go on long enough, every "Production" shooter over 40 will have an optic, claiming his near-sightedness counts as disabled.

My problem w. accommodating draw position, is that there's no reason to do so, other than your desire to compete in a certain division. Its not physically impossible for the OP to complete the course of fire, she just can't do so in the manner she wishes.

I wish I could complete a course of fire in the manner of JM, but I can't, so I deal w. it.

As for being open to "all reputable persons" - most activities are, provided you can engage in the activity safely - I don't see any means for us to ever permit blind people to shoot, or people deprived of both arms, etc.

At a certain point, every sport "discriminates", and its part of what separates "sport" from "social game".

[Gary Stevens]

Our sport requires us to make choices all the time. It seems to me that the Division you choose is the Division you choose.

Gary,

how do you reconcile that with 5.2.9? What if said one-armed shooter wants to compete in Single-Stack or Production, because that's where the local talent is deepest? What if he wants to compete with his two best friends for High-B? What if -- in order to be able to reload, he needs to have mag pouches mounted at the centerline, bullets to the front, to execute a onehanded reload?

I understand that you'd choose open. Why should a person with a handicap have less of a choice of divisions than I do? I'll take this seriously when a handicapped competitor beats the entire supersquad at Nationals and they, to a man/woman, tell me that it's only because of the dispensation afforded by an RM under 5.2.9......

Somehow, I don't think that would happen....

I read 5.2.9 the same way Justice Robert Jackson read the Constitution of the United States "it is not a suicide pact". The rule gives the RM several important words to work with. One being "deemed" another being "significantly" and another being "may". Because someone claims to have a problem using the equipment of a particular Division that they selected "may" not be enough for me to "deem" that they are "significantly" disabled.

Of course each bridge is crossed as you get to it.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Gary Stevens

[Nik Habicht]

We aren't talking about finding ways to let everyone participate - that clearly is not an issue as shown by all the examples of accommodating various physical limitations.

I think we are talking about that. The different divisions are essentially 6 different ways of playing the same game; variations on a theme, but certainly not identical games.

Once upon a time it was a one division game, and that division was open for a little while. Spin that around -- what if the game was only one division and the name was SS?

But it isn't one division, so you shouldn't make rules based on "what ifs". Those variations on a theme allow a shooter to pick one that best fits his interests and abilities. Say my eyes are bad and I can't use iron sights but I want to shoot SS. Will you let me use an red dot optic in SS? If I understand your reasoning you should, because what if Open didn't exist?

You can't make the world fair - if someone can't follow the rules & restrictions they aren't going to win. Most all of us have some limitations on our abilities and don't ask for special treatment if it isn't necessary. If there are divisions where something is a problem and divisions where it isn't, you choose one that works for you.

(And I still get the feeling that you think this is about allowing everyone to play, where I and most of the others think it is about trying to win at a game even if you aren't suited for it. )

There's a huge difference between modifying the gun (gun dictates division/needs to be compliant/no rules governing exemptions) and modifying the holster position (specifically allowed per the rule book with RM approval.)

[Nik Habicht]

Our sport requires us to make choices all the time. It seems to me that the Division you choose is the Division you choose.

Gary,

how do you reconcile that with 5.2.9? What if said one-armed shooter wants to compete in Single-Stack or Production, because that's where the local talent is deepest? What if he wants to compete with his two best friends for High-B? What if -- in order to be able to reload, he needs to have mag pouches mounted at the centerline, bullets to the front, to execute a onehanded reload?

I understand that you'd choose open. Why should a person with a handicap have less of a choice of divisions than I do? I'll take this seriously when a handicapped competitor beats the entire supersquad at Nationals and they, to a man/woman, tell me that it's only because of the dispensation afforded by an RM under 5.2.9......

Somehow, I don't think that would happen....

I read 5.2.9 the same way Justice Robert Jackson read the Constitution of the United States "it is not a suicide pact". The rule gives the RM several important words to work with. One being "deemed" another being "significantly" and another being "may". Because someone claims to have a problem using the equipment of a particular Division that they selected "may" not be enough for me to "deem" that they are "significantly" disabled.

Of course each bridge is crossed as you get to it.

Fair enough. I may not agree with the point of view you're expressing here, but based on past experience, I suspect that I wouldn't be able to argue with a call you made and articulated at a match.... :D

[Gary Stevens]

Our sport requires us to make choices all the time. It seems to me that the Division you choose is the Division you choose.

Gary,

how do you reconcile that with 5.2.9? What if said one-armed shooter wants to compete in Single-Stack or Production, because that's where the local talent is deepest? What if he wants to compete with his two best friends for High-B? What if -- in order to be able to reload, he needs to have mag pouches mounted at the centerline, bullets to the front, to execute a onehanded reload?

I understand that you'd choose open. Why should a person with a handicap have less of a choice of divisions than I do? I'll take this seriously when a handicapped competitor beats the entire supersquad at Nationals and they, to a man/woman, tell me that it's only because of the dispensation afforded by an RM under 5.2.9......

Somehow, I don't think that would happen....

I read 5.2.9 the same way Justice Robert Jackson read the Constitution of the United States "it is not a suicide pact". The rule gives the RM several important words to work with. One being "deemed" another being "significantly" and another being "may". Because someone claims to have a problem using the equipment of a particular Division that they selected "may" not be enough for me to "deem" that they are "significantly" disabled.

Of course each bridge is crossed as you get to it.

Fair enough. I may not agree with the point of view you're expressing here, but based on past experience, I suspect that I wouldn't be able to argue with a call you made and articulated at a match.... :D

You know Nik I really appreciate that. While I have made my share of pooch smooches, they were made with a pure heart.

Thanks again.

Gary

[GeorgeInNePa]

As per suggestion in another topic I've started this thread on the Disabled Shooter and their place in IPSC/USPSA.

Well do I as a shooter with disabilities have a place. I personally have mobility and range of movement problems. As in another topic it was mentioned that mags must be behind the hip in certain classes and it was suggested I not shoot those classes, a position I find unacceptable. Also mentioned was a rule ( 5.2.9 ) but as usual said rule can be applied differently from one match to the next leaving the Disabled Shooter in limbo as they will never know if they can shoot. What can be done?

One of our guys had a serious circulation problem that led to him losing both legs. He now has 2 prosthetic legs.

He shoots with a walker and also with his wheel-chair. Many stages, he shoots one handed while holding himself up on the walker.

We have been known to push the wheel-chair on bigger stages for him while he reloads.

[Carmoney]

I'm all for assisting truly disabled shooters in any way possible. However, from what I see in parking lots everywhere I go, there seem to be an awful lot of people who came of age during the "Me Generation" (i.e. former filthy hippies from the late '60s and early '70s) who think that reaching the age of 60 automatically entitles them to handicapped hang-tags and the closest parking spaces.