konkapot Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 There is a good chance the people involved in this might read this post; not to be taken as a personal attack at all. A production shooter completes two squads and then comes to chrono. At chrono, his final pf does not make minor. He leaves, and comes back with new scoresheets; he spoke to match officals, who removed/deleted him from the match, and then re-entered him as if he had never shot the match. He comes back through chrono with a new gun and new ammo, and made minor. Discuss. FY42385 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Gee Whiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Is that legal???? If so, what is the point of a chrono stage? Can't be legal, can it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 If he stayed in the same division, or if it was a level 1 match, I can't find a rule that specifically makes it illegal. I hope I'm just missing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 ? Somethings missing. Isn't it the average of three round fired anyhow? Er.. Thats the one stage I've always smoked so I never have sweat it. Somethings missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Gee Whiz I'll agree, and give that a + Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 If he stayed in the same division, or if it was a level 1 match, I can't find a rule that specifically makes it illegal. I hope I'm just missing it. 5.6.1.1 The power factor rating to enable a competitor's scores to be included in match results is called "Minor". Some Divisions offer a higher power factor rating called "Major", which enables competitors to earn more points for peripheral shots on scoring paper targets. 39. If the resultant power factor fails to meet the minimum power factor floor for the relevant Division, the competitor may continue shooting the match, but not for score or match recognition. 41. If a competitor's match ammunition is retested, or if any authorized replacement ammunition is used, and different power factors are recorded when tested according to these rules, the lower power factor must be applied to all courses of fire, including those already completed by the competitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted May 8, 2011 Author Share Posted May 8, 2011 Nothing missing; happened as presented. Production shooter, at the end of the chrono process, was at about 123pf. He asked if he could change ammo; was told "no." He asked if he could change guns; also "no." Asked "Is there anybody I can talk to about this?" Was told he could talk to whoever he wanted to, but it wouldn't change what happened at chrono. Discuss further. FY42385 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 The rules are pretty clear on this as mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 If he stayed in the same division, or if it was a level 1 match, I can't find a rule that specifically makes it illegal. I hope I'm just missing it. 5.6.1.1 The power factor rating to enable a competitor's scores to be included in match results is called "Minor". Some Divisions offer a higher power factor rating called "Major", which enables competitors to earn more points for peripheral shots on scoring paper targets. 39. If the resultant power factor fails to meet the minimum power factor floor for the relevant Division, the competitor may continue shooting the match, but not for score or match recognition. 41. If a competitor's match ammunition is retested, or if any authorized replacement ammunition is used, and different power factors are recorded when tested according to these rules, the lower power factor must be applied to all courses of fire, including those already completed by the competitor If it was a level 1 match he could enter in a different division for score (6.2.4.1). At any level, he could enter a different division and not have his score count (6.2.4). What I don't see, probabaly because it is so obvious that no one thought to put it in the rulebook, is something limiting how many times you can enter in the same division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Your first attempt in the match is the only attempt that should count for score. The shooter went sub-minor at chrono, therefore all his scores would not count. If he paid another match fee, he could possibly shoot the match again (for no score), but he was already shooting for no score, so what's the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 I think he could change guns (if approved by the Range Master)..and change ammo...both would also be subject to chrono, but... It wouldn't matter, as he had already went sub-Minor. The proper call is "shooting for no score". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 If it was a level 1 match he could enter in a different division for score (6.2.4.1). At any level, he could enter a different division and not have his score count (6.2.4). What I don't see, probabaly because it is so obvious that no one thought to put it in the rulebook, is something limiting how many times you can enter in the same division. I think you are right, in that nobody has given it much consideration. But, I'd probably read item #39 above to include re-entries (at a Level I) as well...certainly within a division. From what has been posted, I don't know that this was a Level I re-entry situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 (edited) My guess is that it was a Level 2 match. ETA: I've never seen a chrono at a Level 1 match. Edited May 8, 2011 by sperman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Was this a local (level 1) match that allows re-entries or re-shoots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro2AInPA Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 ETA: I've never seen a chrono at a Level 1 match. Neither had I, until yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooter_rob Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Based on the calender, and where the original poster lives, my guess is that it was a Level 2 match. ETA: I've never seen a chrono at a Level 1 match. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Please leave all "what match it was" speculation out of the conversation. The thread will get closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 So, level 1 ok. 2 and above not ok. Is that right? If you were in 2 divisions and went sub-minor in one, could you still shoot the other for score? Maybe that's what he did, switch divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 So, level 1 ok. 2 and above not ok. Is that right? If you were in 2 divisions and went sub-minor in one, could you still shoot the other for score? Maybe that's what he did, switch divisions. Only the FIRST attempt at a COF will count for score. (See below) If the competitor went sub-minor in the FIRST attempt, then it too will not count for score. 6.2.4 Subject to the prior approval of the Match Director, a competitor may enter a match in more than one Division. However, the competitor may compete for match score in only one Division, and that must be the first attempt in all cases. Any subsequent attempts in another Division will not count for match recognition. 6.2.4.1 Level I matches may allow competitors to enter multiple Divisions for match recognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Thank you Chris. I understand now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 I hope he bought some lottery tickets on the way home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 I still don't think he fully understood what "went down." I do believe he thought things were "made right." FY42385 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee King Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 The situation was addressed Saturday night and Sunday morning. It will be corrected when final scores are posted on the USPSA web site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 If, at a match, the proper course of action is probably talk with the Range Master...and then file a third party arbitration if needed. Since this does seem to be getting "match specific"...I am going to close this one. We want to discuss rules here so that we can all understand and do better. We don't want to to use the forum to air out issues, or as a place to gripe. (not that the OP was doing that at all, but it could easily head that way). I think we have covered the bases here. Kyle Farris Forum Administrator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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