DocMedic Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 (edited) Since I'll be shooting Trooper this year at Ironman, I want to get a open shotgun. My options are as follows: I already own a FN SLP that sits in the rack, and hasen't seen much action since I bought my M2 last year, so I was thinking throwing a Xrail System on it find a way to mount a speed chute, and throw a red dot on top and have it good to go for Ironman, or would it be a better option just to get a saiga and get it "pimped" out? Which one would be most cost effective, I can still get a saiga for around $500ish... But already own the SLP. What are your thoughts? pro's con's? lets hear it. Edited March 18, 2011 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WRanger Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 If you accept the premise that winning shotgun stages is, ultimately, determined by how fast you reload, then a magwelled Saiga is the way to go. The assumption is, of course, that the Saiga is reliable. If you want a fast, reliable one, call Jack Travers. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WRanger Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 (edited) Deleted Edited March 18, 2011 by WRanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THM7 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I really like my Saigas (I have 3)....higher the round count the greater the advantage of the S12. If you can find one for $500 grab it....last time I checked prices and availability were becoming issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Magwelled Saiga all pimped out $3000 with a six week wait and when it comes your stil shooting a sheet metal gun that is far from 100% reliable. Take a stock FN and add mag well and Xrail and your only spending about $1000 and it runs like a sewing machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Magwelled Saiga all pimped out $3000 with a six week wait and when it comes your stil shooting a sheet metal gun that is far from 100% reliable. Take a stock FN and add mag well and Xrail and your only spending about $1000 and it runs like a sewing machine. Firebird Saigas are reliable, but they are still sheet metal. Yep, about $1000 on top of your SLP to make it a REALLY heavy Sewing Machine. On your SLP, you would have to get the short X-Rail or a new barrel to go with the long. I just built up my 11-87 with an X-rail. While 1.5 pounds of lead in 4.5 secodns is really cool, it is also really heavy. For me it was a cheaper option than trying to run a Saiga. I decided agsint a magewell and Tec-Loaders. I can load 8 rounds in 6 seconds using the TWinS. That appears to be about what the "average" open guys are doing to load 2 sticks. The TWinS can be used in other classes, the Tec Loaders can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Magwelled Saiga all pimped out $3000 with a six week wait and when it comes your stil shooting a sheet metal gun that is far from 100% reliable. Take a stock FN and add mag well and Xrail and your only spending about $1000 and it runs like a sewing machine. I don't know which Saiga's you have been exposed to but it certainly has not been my experience to have malf's with the Firebird guns. As to a magwell on the FN, can you point one out that can easily mounted up. If someone has the measurements to jerry rig up an Arredondo chute, it can work but the angle and distance on the mag opening is crucial. DM, Give Jim at Firebird a call. The Saiga will be more $$. Even if you choose not to go with the Saiga platform he can give you a ton of info to help you make your decision. Personally the only way to make a tube gun competitive with the mag fed platform is to utilize the xrail and tec loaders, which also means the Arredondo Tec Loader chute which as far as I know difficult to set up properly on an SLP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) Saiga is the way to go. Firebird, Jack Travers and R&R all make a good Saiga shotgun. Of the top 6 shooters at the 2010 Pan American Shotgun Match, 4 were shooting R&R Saigas (the top 2 were shooting Benellis). Open division at the last Ft Benning 3 gun match was won by Clint Upchurch with an R&R Saiga. A really good shooter can still win with a Benelli, but the average shooter is better off with a Saiga because it is easier to learn to shoot and load fast. Much shorter learning curve. I'm a perfect example, when I was shooting tactical I was finishing middle of the pack. Now at large matches in Open, with my R&R Saiga I can finish in the top 15 or 20% (examples: Pan Am - 5th/25, Ironman - 6th/32). At smaller regional matches I have a good chance of winning (Inland Empire & EWPSA Oct 3 gun 2010). I credit the shotgun with a large portion of my improvement. You have the option of getting a stock Saiga and adding the modifications yourself. I know a good local shooter who did that with excellent results. As with any gas gun you need to find ammo that the gun likes and go with it. If you have a good modified Saiga with good ammunition you should never have a problem. Doug Edited March 21, 2011 by Doug H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Add 2 cents. Saigas are a great platform. I have shot them for a while as a club shooter. Hats off to R&R for nice shotguns and they do the short gas system and take them to the limit. For those of us on a budget I have learned lessons. Jack makes great parts and if you shoot non R&R you are using his magwell. Plus I like his trigger guard that allows a magpull grip with some mods and his extended mag release is perfect IMO. Seems to me one of the biggest issues that is not mentioned that magazines need to be tuned and checked for your gun. And as long as you leave the gas system stock, have tested/good mags and concentrate on the ergonomics its solid and far faster than I will ever be. My biggest issue is now how to carry mags. I pulled a mag a couple weeks ago from a dump pouch moving from box to box and accidently droped the other one. Ended up with an empty gun and targets left at a speed shotgun match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Magwelled Saiga all pimped out $3000 with a six week wait and when it comes your stil shooting a sheet metal gun that is far from 100% reliable. Take a stock FN and add mag well and Xrail and your only spending about $1000 and it runs like a sewing machine. I don't know which Saiga's you have been exposed to but it certainly has not been my experience to have malf's with the Firebird guns. As to a magwell on the FN, can you point one out that can easily mounted up. If someone has the measurements to jerry rig up an Arredondo chute, it can work but the angle and distance on the mag opening is crucial. DM, Give Jim at Firebird a call. The Saiga will be more $$. Even if you choose not to go with the Saiga platform he can give you a ton of info to help you make your decision. Personally the only way to make a tube gun competitive with the mag fed platform is to utilize the xrail and tec loaders, which also means the Arredondo Tec Loader chute which as far as I know difficult to set up properly on an SLP. Installing a chute on a FN is not a problem and even if you pay someone to do it for you it is thousands less than an R and R which is for sure the best Saiga I have seen. But having said that I have never seen a Saiga from any maker run entirely through a match trouble with out a problem. I can say thet there appears to be a cause and effect on the amount of money you spend on a Saiga, spend more and you get a better gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 But having said that I have never seen a Saiga from any maker run entirely through a match trouble with out a problem. I can say thet there appears to be a cause and effect on the amount of money you spend on a Saiga, spend more and you get a better gun. You must be hanging around with the wrong crowd. Follow the flock of Firebirds around if you would like to change your perspective. I don't shoot one, I don't much like ROing behind them, but I've seen a bunch of them run through an entire match with no bobbles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Charles, SMM3G was the 6th major match in a row that my Saiga ran for the whole match without a malfunction. Here's a vid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastshooter03 Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I'm using the 930 this year w/X-Rail. Still deciding on whether or not to make a tecloader chute. Most likely I will. Already made my own followers and choke tubes so why not I guess. Cost wise I'm not 100% sure but I think the Saigas cost a lot more in the end with mods, mags, etc. Each one has it's merits. Certain stages will favor one over the other. Stage designers may or may not know the effects of an abnormal stage design like starting empty or having slugs mixed in all over or whatever else may favor one design over the other. With the X-Rail, when you throw a box of shells at the front of the mag it does tend to get nose heavy if you don't eat your wheaties. But just remember you've got a box of shells to go through and you might be willing to put up with it. I've added a mercury rr to the rear of the 930 to help balance it out. In the end though it's the same story. Equipment will take you only so far. Gotta have skills to be on top. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 Charles, SMM3G was the 6th major match in a row that my Saiga ran for the whole match without a malfunction. Here's a vid. Ok THAT was a badass reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Ok THAT was a badass reload. Thanks! BTW Xrails can't do that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blurryvisions Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 if he had an xrail he wouldnt have wasted 2 seconds doing a reload... think about that for a min Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Now that's funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I am about to buy a stock Saiga from a buddy just for spare parts for my R&R in case it becomes a DD. My concern now is will USPSA or the various outlaw three gun matches ban the Saiga if it becomes unavailable for the average joe. That would suck as I sunk a lot of money into my R&R saiga. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topmaul Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 (edited) Don't worry about the Saiga being banned it's imported as a sporting gun, it will be fine. I have two Saigas myself a friend had one he wanted to sell so I bought it that gun is going to be my multi-gun shotgun this year it's set up very nicely and I did it myself. I can not imagen paying 3 grand for a Saiga I don't care who blinged it out. My DIY is reliable and gets the job done. Of course I'm not a pro just a average guy that likes to shoot. Edited April 29, 2011 by Topmaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 if he had an xrail he wouldnt have wasted 2 seconds doing a reload... think about that for a min Or he would have zeroed the stage cuz his Xrail didn't work..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 (edited) Don't worry about the Saiga being banned it's imported as a sporting gun, it will be fine. I have two Saigas myself a friend had one he wanted to sell so I bought it that gun is going to be my multi-gun shotgun this year it's set up very nicely and I did it myself. I can not imagen paying 3 grand for a Saiga I don't care who blinged it out. My DIY is reliable and gets the job done. Of course I'm not a pro just a average guy that likes to shoot. I am not a pro either and it was hard to shell out the coin for this gun but I am glad I did. It was expensive but the mag well allows me to reload it much faster than the toggle system on the stock ones and the comp cuts recoil down to nothing. I have placed much better in local matches due to no one up here running a Saiga like this yet. Its like cheating. In my opinion there is no comparision between a normal Saiga and a tricked out one from RRA or Firebird. Pat Edited April 29, 2011 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I am about to buy a stock Saiga from a buddy just for spare parts for my R&R in case it becomes a DD. My concern now is will USPSA or the various outlaw three gun matches ban the Saiga if it becomes unavailable for the average joe. That would suck as I sunk a lot of money into my R&R saiga. Pat USPSA hasn't banned any of the other shotguns like the Street Sweeper or USAS -12 that are currently DD's. Nor have any IMGA matches that I'm aware of. Don't know why that would change for the Saiga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blurryvisions Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 if he had an xrail he wouldnt have wasted 2 seconds doing a reload... think about that for a min Or he would have zeroed the stage cuz his Xrail didn't work..... the door swings both ways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I am about to buy a stock Saiga from a buddy just for spare parts for my R&R in case it becomes a DD. My concern now is will USPSA or the various outlaw three gun matches ban the Saiga if it becomes unavailable for the average joe. That would suck as I sunk a lot of money into my R&R saiga. Pat USPSA hasn't banned any of the other shotguns like the Street Sweeper or USAS -12 that are currently DD's. Nor have any IMGA matches that I'm aware of. Don't know why that would change for the Saiga. Cool thanks Chuck. One of the fellow shooters I shoot with got me worried about it. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topmaul Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 I just finished mine I have just under a grand into it. Not counting mags I have had them for years. I pre-ordered AGP 10 round mags before they hit the market. The finger mag drop deal is not yet installed other than that it's done execpt for the choke I plan to run modified. I hand fitted all 10 of my AGP mags for this gun. JT Mag Well Tromix trigger and trigger guard DYI kit CSS quad rail system A PK-01 red dot 1.5 moa Trying to thing about what all else I have in this gun. that CSS stock I'm very proud of the way this gun came out. My 6th Saiga build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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