Is USPSA about accuracy?

[smokshwn]

Let's consider changing our sport because it is not all about the accuracy that we claim it is. If anyone can shoot accurately then lets see it happen.

Top shot is a silly game, but it seems to have pointed out that USPSA is less about accuracy than it claims to be.

I think a definition of accuracy has to be put forth before you can call USPSA out as falsely including accuracy in the skillset. Is it hitting an 6x11 a zone or a 2" pool ball????

If we define accuracy as hitting a 1" x in the bullseye then how will it redefine speed?

There is no room for the show's GM's to demonstrate their ability.

Like to pick up a gun, load it and shoot it accurately at a target........

With all the discussion about Jay's poor technique, it also shows the weakness of your statement. To stand and hit something accurately requires very little skill and/or technique.

So back to the previous statement that there are so many skills over and above simply hitting a target, that the show has no provision for demonstrating.

Pretty much sums it up. The latest mag showed a guy that had runup to a barrier, with one leg in the air,falling out of the box shooting at a target.

Practical. No way. Unsafe. Yep. Running,off balance,triggers so light a firefly could set them off cannot be considered safe. One must have complete control of ones body to be safe. I hope USPSA changes things before someone gets injured or killed.

Absolutely practical, having the ability to make hits from an unbalanced, unfamiliar position, while moving to or from cover is critical in almost any "practical" argument.

Unsafe? Out of control? again absolutely not. The series of pictures you refer to show a shooter who is at the pinnacle of self control and chose a technique and method that maximized his score. As evidence the gun is clearly pointed in a safe direction and in control through the whole series.

Obviously a statement with the accusation that someone will be killed shooting USPSA is very elementary and your limited skillset and exposure to the sport may prevent you from correctly interpreting the series of pics.

[JakeMartens]

This wasn't a question about safety, I think that we have a very good record of being very safe.

Nobody was talking about changing targets size or the size of the A zone....

It was a question of have we put speed over accuracy.

[smokshwn]

Nobody was talking about changing targets size or the size of the A zone....

It was a question of have we put speed over accuracy.

My purpose in talking about target size was to suggest that USPSA is the only sport to balance Power Accuracy and Speed.

When we are trying to answer a question as this one posed by the OP we can't discuss one without the other two.

So my point was if the hypothesis posed by the OP were true, that USPSA lacks emphasis on accuracy, then what would changing that accuracy standard do to speed and power. Not being able to control course design, the only way to change the accuracy standard would be to change the target size/shape to increase accuracy.

If that was done, would those changes be beneficial, or might they cause unintended consequences?

Edited March 20, 2011 by smokshwn

[mpolans]

Why assume you can't change course design? Lower round counts per stage (perhaps increase number of stages per match with creative layouts) and it should be easy to increase the emphasis on accuracy.

[Vlad]

Quick question: How many archers, hunters, blowgun artists, backyard shooters, bullseye champions, golf instructors, etc, at the top of their game, are being sought after to train military and law enforcement?

Followup question: How many USPSA GMs, 3gun shooters, etc, are in the above situation?

I'm betting the answer to the followup question is larger then that of the first question. As USPSA includes the word Practical in there somewhere, I'd say that we have sufficient practical accuracy in our blend of spices.

Of course, when we go to war with the pool ball alien nation, I'll recall these words with much bitterness.

I've also noted that Brian Z's shooting has not been what I would have considered surgical or representative of national level champions of bullseye.

[hankfan79]

Quick question: How many archers, hunters, blowgun artists, backyard shooters, bullseye champions, golf instructors, etc, at the top of their game, are being sought after to train military and law enforcement?

That doesn't make any sense to me.

Law enforcement don't execute raids with a 9 iron

If they did, they might seek out Tiger Woods.

Each sport/hobby seek out their own professionals for training. I wouldn't sign up for a 3 gun class to improve my golf swing either. Then again, I just might. Just sayin'

[Jim Norman]

The point Vlad was making I am sure was that when it comes to training their shooters in a dynamic fluid shooting skill set, the chosen instructor group that is turned to is USPSA/Multi-Gun communities best shooters, Not Skeet, trap, bullseye or Cowboy.

Not saying all the other shooting disciplines don't have their masters and that they can't be as good as anyone's, just that what we do is shoot in a fluid/dynamic environment.

[digerup]

I chose to get into USPSA shooting because it is fun to shoot fast and move. Stages that require placing shots more accurately and shooting slower just dont give you the same adrenaline rush as hosing a fast round. It is fine to have the slower rounds mixed in, but I wouldnt be as addicted to the sport if it was slower paced.

As for TS, competitors arent always eliminated on the quality of shooter they are, it has a lot to do with personal opinions from competitors. I can only imagine how many hours of filming are cut out to give us the version of the game they want us to see.

[tpcdvc]

Our club has pushed the envelope in the accuracy department (at times) to the point of stupidity IMO. To the point that newer shooters were turning the timers over and completely running out of bullets with steel still standing, zeroing stages, obvious frustration on their faces etc... I can't help but think that this is no way to grow our sport. I'm all in favor of an occasional plate at 25yds now and again and pushing targets out to 25-30yds on some stages, but beyond that it is just not practical in every sense of the word. Not practical in the application of a pistol skills in the real world, not practical in growing participation in your club or USPSA.

Again our sport was not just conceived as a game, it was designed around the idea of gaining pistol handling skills as they pertain to the real world. We are all aware that neither IDPA or USPSA develops tactical knowledge/skills, but both sports will develop your pistol handling skills that directly apply to police/military service, and civilian carry. With correct focus on the amount of accuracy that is needed.

I had my son shooting 12ga hulls off of target sticks after just a couple of days of shooting. Lining the sights up and doing a surprise break is not a great skill and anyone can be taught to do it in short order with very little time invested. That is not the case with what we do in USPSA. Anyone who is a competitive B class and above has put forth a good deal of time and effort.

[smokshwn]

Why assume you can't change course design? Lower round counts per stage (perhaps increase number of stages per match with creative layouts) and it should be easy to increase the emphasis on accuracy.

My point is that it would be relatively simple to adjust the size of the scoring zones....and relatively impossible to regulate "creative layouts".

[carlosa]

Lower round counts? Smaller A zone?

Focus on accuracy.. Do any of you guys making this comments hear of a sport called IDPA?

If not you should look into it..

And funny enough it's dominated by uspsa and Ipsc shooters

[hankfan79]

And funny enough it's dominated by uspsa and Ipsc shooters

That's because some of the best started in IDPA.

Sevigny, Vogel, and a few others.

My guess is that they learned the accuracy first..then picked up the speed.

"Slow is smooth and smooth is fast" or something.

[Jim Norman]

We DO NOT need to change the size of our targets. We have within the rules all sorts of ways to reduce the allowable non-penalty scoring zones. Put a NS or HC on top of a target, set up a NS popper to shield part of a shoot popper, put a plate in front of a popper, the popper is a NS, miss the plate? Hit the popper. I'd put a plate in front of the popper as a NS,but I don't believe that i allowed. Push a couple US Poppers or plates out to 50 yards in your matches. Just make sure that there are enough points to make not engaging the long range targets not a viable choice.

[West Texas Granny]

Let's consider changing our sport because it is not all about the accuracy that we claim it is. If anyone can shoot accurately then lets see it happen.

Top shot is a silly game, but it seems to have pointed out that USPSA is less about accuracy than it claims to be.

I think a definition of accuracy has to be put forth before you can call USPSA out as falsely including accuracy in the skillset. Is it hitting an 6x11 a zone or a 2" pool ball????

If we define accuracy as hitting a 1" x in the bullseye then how will it redefine speed?

There is no room for the show's GM's to demonstrate their ability.

Like to pick up a gun, load it and shoot it accurately at a target........

With all the discussion about Jay's poor technique, it also shows the weakness of your statement. To stand and hit something accurately requires very little skill and/or technique.

So back to the previous statement that there are so many skills over and above simply hitting a target, that the show has no provision for demonstrating.

Pretty much sums it up. The latest mag showed a guy that had runup to a barrier, with one leg in the air,falling out of the box shooting at a target.

Practical. No way. Unsafe. Yep. Running,off balance,triggers so light a firefly could set them off cannot be considered safe. One must have complete control of ones body to be safe. I hope USPSA changes things before someone gets injured or killed.

Absolutely practical, having the ability to make hits from an unbalanced, unfamiliar position, while moving to or from cover is critical in almost any "practical" argument.

Unsafe? Out of control? again absolutely not. The series of pictures you refer to show a shooter who is at the pinnacle of self control and chose a technique and method that maximized his score. As evidence the gun is clearly pointed in a safe direction and in control through the whole series.

Obviously a statement with the accusation that someone will be killed shooting USPSA is very elementary and your limited skillset and exposure to the sport may prevent you from correctly interpreting the series of pics.

Yea I've been shooting USPSA for less than a year but consider this. These are a fresh set of eyes looking at this sport. It would not be right to ignore the observations. I have a military background and a R&D background where I evaluated every square inch of a system for it's functionality, safety and vulnerabilities thus I do have the necessary skill set to evaluate what is safe or not and falling out of a box is not safe. The body is out of control. Such stunts can get people hurt or killed. Now others my not agree and that's fine but if safety is any consideration you may want to consider what I have pointed out. Remember just because nothing serious has happened does not mean it won't happen. Any failure to constantly reexamine procedures and standards for safety can only set the stage for failure,injury or death.

[waktasz]

Oh please...

[Jim Norman]

WTG, no offense, BUT, I seriously think that you should probably shoot Bullseye. USPSA doesn't sound like it is your sport.

Falling out of a box is perfectly safe so long as you are not actually falling out of control. You approach the end of the stage, there is a wall with a fault line. You get there moving at speed, you plant, more or less as you still have momentum, you shoot the targets, perhaps on one leg, and yo are slowly tilting, If you don't put your foot down, you will fall. So you complete your shots as you are 'falling' but you step out at the last instant.

Not for a new shooter, but an experienced shooter can do this safely. KNOWING, really KNOWING where you are, where your muzzle is, where your trigger finger is, if the safety is on, where your feet are at all times is a skill set that you develop over time.

If you feel USPSA is too dangerous, do yourself and all of us a favor, Shoot some other sport. I'd hate to see you be stressed out when you are supposed to be enjoying yourself.

[hankfan79]

Oh please...

I couldn't help it..

[aztecdriver]

WTG, no offense, BUT, I seriously think that you should probably shoot Bullseye. USPSA doesn't sound like it is your sport.

Falling out of a box is perfectly safe so long as you are not actually falling out of control. You approach the end of the stage, there is a wall with a fault line. You get there moving at speed, you plant, more or less as you still have momentum, you shoot the targets, perhaps on one leg, and yo are slowly tilting, If you don't put your foot down, you will fall. So you complete your shots as you are 'falling' but you step out at the last instant.

Not for a new shooter, but an experienced shooter can do this safely. KNOWING, really KNOWING where you are, where your muzzle is, where your trigger finger is, if the safety is on, where your feet are at all times is a skill set that you develop over time.

If you feel USPSA is too dangerous, do yourself and all of us a favor, Shoot some other sport. I'd hate to see you be stressed out when you are supposed to be enjoying yourself.

I gotta agree here - any time you move, you risk falling. We run, fast, with the proverbial scissors. It something we train to do - it's not something a new shooter should necessarily attempt.

This move is done over and over again. I did this exact thing along with another 160 other people this past weekend. People fall all the time, and it's incredibly safe. Track record proves that.

[pjb45]

A couple of points for the sake of the discussion:

1. The trigger pull on Top Shot guns are not tuned like our guns. Does this have an effect on shooting accurately. Yes. Should they have prepared for it. Yes. ABC TV did something like this years ago with Super Stars, where stars of other sports competed. Kyle Rote Jr. won-- a soccer player. Why: he had coaches to train him. It is kind of a no brainer, that Top Shot would have a tomahawk, bow, knife, old gun, new gun in the mix. If you are going on the show, get someone to coach you.

It is Top Shot, Chris earned his last walk on the show, it was not given to him. Maggie earned hers. Everyone who was eliminated did so on their own merit. Kind of a 6Ps moment; piss poor planning promotes poor performance.

2. Our sport favors speed over accuracy almost all the time. Model the scoring methodology with different scenarios, faster can make up for more points.

3. I am known for setting up some brutal COFs. I do try to mix it up some; accuracy and hoser but almost all my COFs have no shoots and hard cover. I even put no shoots on swingers. I get more negative feedback from the better shooters than I do from the newer ones. I have been victim of my own COFs but I learn more from that type of course than I do from nothing but shooting hosers.

4. I have not heard of any firearm injury/shooting in a USPSA COFs due to WTG's observation. The last injury I heard about was 18 months ago when a LEO stuck his finger in the trigger guard as he was holstering the weapon.

5. We do not need to change our scoring zones. If you want people to practice accuracy then set up a COF accordingly. I look at the old timer's in this sport, show them a Standards COF and they grin. Because that is what they practiced when this sport was young. Accuracy did rule. But the equipment wars took over. I grew up out west where 15 year olds got their drivers license, we loved speed then. Hell I still like to go fast, I now pay my insurance and own speeding tickets so I slow it down. But this sport is really about speed, then accuracy and more rounds down range = more fun. If you want something slower to to IDPA or Bullseye shooting. I am not disparaging those sports but they put a higher premium on accuracy than we do.

6. There are a lot of good USPSA shooters doing well at Bianchi as well as the Steel Challenge.

[smokshwn]

Yea I've been shooting USPSA for less than a year but consider this. These are a fresh set of eyes looking at this sport. It would not be right to ignore the observations. I have a military background and a R&D background where I evaluated every square inch of a system for it's functionality, safety and vulnerabilities thus I do have the necessary skill set to evaluate what is safe or not and falling out of a box is not safe. The body is out of control. Such stunts can get people hurt or killed. Now others my not agree and that's fine but if safety is any consideration you may want to consider what I have pointed out. Remember just because nothing serious has happened does not mean it won't happen. Any failure to constantly reexamine procedures and standards for safety can only set the stage for failure,injury or death.

Safety is a very serious consideration in USPSA. The level of proactive safety activity both in prevention and assessment is actually quite impressive. If as you suggest, USPSA matches are boiling cauldrons of condoned unsafe behavior, would you mind explaining why USPSA has been able to develop and maintain such an excellent safety record?

Regardless of your professional background, your observation of the pictures and subsequent interpretation are flawed in the extreme.

There is nothing in the photo to suggest the body is out of control. As a matter of fact everything about the three photos suggests not only a great deal of control but also that the action was planned. Not many shooters unload during their "stunts". Knowing Ron, and many other shooters who most likely chose a similar course of action, it was practiced several times in the walk through and was certainly not the first time any of them had done either in practice or previous matches.

Most importantly, remember just because you have an irrational fear something serious can happen, does not mean it will.

[carlosa]

As far as safety goes, read the rules, find out what gets you. Dq'ed..

There are sevral things that have to Happen an compound before there's an accident, the rules are setup so that you will get thrown out of a match before a, b, and c happen leading to an accident..

If your being unsafe an RO is going to get you the F out of there in an instant.

Even if your the greatest gm in the planet.

So no this is not your grandpa's shooting shooting sport, but saying it's not safe is very disrespectful to all the RO's who volunteer the time so we can have a fun safe match.

[carlosa]

By the way for those of you that want a game that's more about extreme speed and extreme Acuracy have you tried steel challenge??

Oh wait that's dominated by Ipsc shooters too..

In all seriousness if your only shooting Ipsc matches and your shooting at only one club your not getting a full spectrum work out..

If you want to truly be the best shooter in both speed and accuracy take part in all shooting sports.

I myself shoot steel challenge, idpa, uspsa, and unsaction steel matches.

And the reason I do all this different disciplines is because some offer what the others don't..

And as soon as get a chance I will start shooting bianchi as well.

Because in the end to reach my potential I need to shoot accurately and fast

That the possibility that our sport offers.

Ps

If you think that uspsa needs to focus more on accuracy you better be burning down your stages at the fastest times with all Alpha hits.

Until then keep trying

Edited March 21, 2011 by carlosa

[hankfan79]

If you want to truly be the best shooter in both speed and accuracy take part in all shooting sports.

+10

I competed in my first USPSA match the other weekend. I have shot in IDPA for years and wanted to try something different.

I won production but got smoked by the others (open, limited..etc).

I learned the hard way that "shoot throughs" don't count in USPSA. Bummer.

In the words of another shooter "In USPSA, accuracy is not so much rewarded vs. IDPA but drops on you like a piano if your not".

[carlosa]

If you want to truly be the best shooter in both speed and accuracy take part in all shooting sports.

+10

I competed in my first USPSA match the other weekend. I have shot in IDPA for years and wanted to try something different.

I won production but got smoked by the others (open, limited..etc).

I learned the hard way that "shoot throughs" don't count in USPSA. Bummer.

In the words of another shooter "In USPSA, accuracy is not so much rewarded vs. IDPA but drops on you like a piano if your not".

I have much more fun shooting ipsc, but idpa brings a hole new challenge that makes me a better ipsc shooter. Same goes for steel challenge. They all feed of each other.

I don't get shooters that ignore other disciplines, when it comes down to it shooting is awesome! In any flavor!!

[Vlad]

Quick side note here, we fall ALL the time. Its call walking. Don't believe me? Start walking and then without changing your stride or inertia, fold up one of your legs instead of putting it down. You will fall on your face. Walking is controlled falling forward. Controlled falling is a pretty natural activity for those of us living in a world with gravity in it.