Has Open Gun progress stopped?

[kdj]

I've recently been watching videos of all the Nationals I could find. It seems to me that the rate of progress in equipment has slowed or even stopped over the last decade.

Back in the Dark Ages (early 80s) most people were shooting Cooper approved .45s. Then there was a huge change in equipment over the next 4 or 5 years as compensators and then high pressure smaller calibre rounds became popular. You see that on the tapes through about 89 as each year people are shooting something different. There's lots of change some of it successful and some of it less so.

Then there's another huge qualitaitive leap to about 92 as everyone catches on to the idea of scopes.

Looking at 94 (which I think is the last video from Gun Videos), things have settled to compensated .355/.356 wide body guns with a red dot sight.

Then, I looked at the 2003 Super Squad Video and actually didn't see much change in terms of guns. Ancillary equipment like holsters had changed quite a bit but the guns looked very similar to those of a decade earlier.

May be next year the picture will be different and everyone will be shooting Shortys or Hibrids and things will look different again but it seems like for a decade, Open Guns have been pretty stable.

A State of the Art pistol in 94 would still be competitive in 2003.

Did we reach a maxima for Open Pistols and the gear race was effectively done, or was it a temporary hiatus while we waited for the next burst of inspiration to come and it's now here?

Or did I just miss something

Kevin

[Loves2Shoot]

It has been over 100 years and we still use the same basic platform as John Browning did, so we might say that major advancement stopped there. Sure materials have changed, but I think guns today are at a point where they can out perform the user. How long ago was the sword perfected? I think most of todays latest greateest advancement, ie short open guns, are more mental, and as long as people think there is an advantage to be gained, there is no end to the things people will try. The patent office gets something like 10k applications a day.

Now Bevens mag followers are a different story, they are a real improvement for an old problem.

If Fred Craig, or someone like him, ever perfects some of the stuff he's done with gas guns, you might see something that really make a radical difference. I shot a Craig prototype gas operated gun and it was super smooth, soft and cycled fast, too fast But there are still things yet to be done, think about a open gun that shoots as flat and soft as a .22, that would be the ticket

[ErikW]

I think somebody could make a fixed barrel, gas operated blaster that is a soft-shooting tack driver. (Isn't that what the Wolf tried to be?) But recouping the R&D expenditure would be impossible. I guess there's that 1911 conversion thing but it hasn't yet set the world on fire.

Honestly, better sights is the only area I see improvement coming. We need a smaller, shorter C-More! Easier pointing, easier to find the dot strong hand or weak hand only. Less worry about low hits into no-shoots or hardcover below IPSC upper A/B zones. Lighter. Less obstruction of the ejection port.

Oh yeah, caseless ammo to avoid any need for tuning extraction and ejection. No more broken extractors!

[TriggerT]

I agree with L2S, the open gun is just waiting for the next major revolution in technology. In the meantime, we will continue to see minor improvements on the current line of thought as to what a open gun should be.

[SRT Driver]

Maybe when the AWB sunsets a new wave will start. Cheaper MAGS!!!!!!

[kimel]

Comp design itself seems to be a major area of focus these days. That comp from 1994 probably isn't nearly as efficient as a comp from today...at least to hear those selling comps tell the story. Just read some of the discussions here about which comp is best and all that stuff.

There are also a host of new powders to play with that weren't there 10 years ago.

There also seems to be an evolution to shorter, lighter slides looking to cycle that action ever so much more quickly.

And who knows what 9x19 Major will bring. Shorter cartridge so an even shorter cycle is possible.

Is that 1994 blaster competitive today? Probably. Especially if you take today's powders and work up the optimal loads. Will it be as easy to shoot as today's state of the art open blaster? Probably not.

I kind of keep hoping some major evolution will come along so everyone will dump their "old" open blasters. I would like to gear up for Open but can't afford it right now. But if everyone had a fire sale to move on to the latest and greatest...

Evolution is still going on but it just isn't as visible as it used to be.

[kdj]

And who knows what 9x19 Major will bring. Shorter cartridge so an even shorter cycle is possible.

The first "open" gun I ever played with was a CZ-75 Major 9, which was a 9x19 loaded to meet the old 175 (i.e. 180+) power factor ... and that was in the late 80s

"There is nothing new under the Sun"

[kdj]

Hands up all those who've sketched out a design for a fixed barrel, gas-operated, caseless Open gun ... keep your hands up if you tried to find a way to fire two shots at once without crossing the boundary into automatic or burst firing.

One day I'm going to sit down with a really good creative gunsmith and a blank sheet of paper and build a truely custom gun ... and I'll still be outshoot by some cranky old timer with a rusty .45 ...

Kevin

[Patrick Sweeney]

I covered the '02 Open Nationals for American Handgunner, interviewing all the top guns about their guns. Doug Koenig was shooting a six or seven year old Caspian-framed hi-cap. As I recall, everyone was shooting an old gun, except for those who had just replaced a worn-out old gun.

We've reached the point where the "improvements" are smaller than the variables in the systems. For instance, what is an "efficient" comp? You can make almost any comp feel almost any way you want by adjusting powders and bullet weights. So, a comp is 1% better than another. You can adjust the feel by 10% by changing powders.

And there is nothing wrong with mature technology. The Romans ruled the Med for a thousand years using the Gladius and Pilum. Were there better tools? Not if you asked the Romans.

The next "improvement" is always measured for cost against higher score. Unless it propels shooters ahead fo their cohorts for only an equipment investment, it isn't an improvement.

[OpnBlstr]

I had the opportunity to put a few mags of ammo through one of Fred's Proton-X1 gas pistols at a local IDPA match. If he would (not could - it's Fred after all) make a shorty 9x19 open gun out of it it would be a very sweet shooter.

I was able to put follow up shots with the standard Proton right next to each other as fast as I could pull the trigger. And that was without the benefit of a comp! I wanted one then and I still want one.

The fixed barrel design of the Proton and the new Merc M11 as seen in AH would provide an ideal platform for a frame mounted dot sight. The extremely low barrel centerline combined with the ultra fast cycling and smaller-than-modular grip size would be an awesome combination. The only drawback I could see is mag capacity. That series uses modified Beretta 92 mags. I don't know how many 9mm rounds would fit in a 170mm but it's probably not 28. Maybe he could use a setup like the old Ramline 18 round mags with the clockspring running down the mag sidewall to get a few extra. Hmmmmm. How about something really new like an inflatable airbag that takes gas from the action to elevate the rounds in the mag. Maybe an electric primed cartridge to allow infinite tuning of the trigger system and near zero lock time - plus since it's electronic he could incorporate dial-a-burst. Oh yeah!

[ErikW]

Maybe he could use a setup like the old Ramline 18 round mags with the clockspring running down the mag sidewall to get a few extra.

<checking date> Nope, it's not April Fools' day yet.

kdj, the old blackpowder musket problem is a problem with caseless rounds? OK, how about a cellulose "case" that burns away with the charge?

[shred]

Honestly, better sights is the only area I see improvement coming. We need a smaller, shorter C-More! Easier pointing, easier to find the dot strong hand or weak hand only.

Rumor has it C-More already has a vastly improved sight that they're not going to tool up for until sales of the old one taper off. Anyway..

The AWB stifled some creativity, especially in the magazine department, but still there's only so many .355" cylinders you can stuff into 170mm and still get your hand around it. Until somebody gets the spring to live somewhere else, we're about end of the road on that.

As for the rest, the big revolutionary changes have more or less quieted down, but there's still plenty of less-visible evolution going on.

[Wakal]

Having played with (and ordered three) fixed-barrel 1911 uppers in 9mm at the last SHOT show, I think there are still new ideas out there.

I'll have to see how these work before I say "this is it", though

Alex

[schmitz]

Principles never change, only used materials do.

Changes in the margin, old stuff works, it's the owner not the gun. Historic weapons are as accurate as modern ones, but they don't last so long.

Wile E.

PS. Call 'm 1911 or 2011, doesn't matter... progression needs time, revolution, time etc.

[sgrc1]

What about the tungsten sleeved barrels? ok maybe not for the Open gun but I have one in my limited gun and it really makes a difference vs the factory SV barrel, felt recoil is even less than my Glock 17 9x19 and its much nicer to shoot!

[John Dunn]

There are nail guns that run off a liquid fuel cell and (I believe) electronic ignition.

I want a jet pack and an open gun that only needs refueling every 1,000 rounds, equipped with a Calico type helical bullet mag rotating around the barrel.

[ErikW]

I wonder how expensive the bullets will be for a frictionless magnet-accelerated rail gun. Steel jackets would be a problem. Steel sabots? Can't have that; they lower magazine capacity.

No doubt we'll have jet packs and rail guns before somebody makes an unbreakable adjustable sight.

[Sam]

I wanna cosmic plasma death ray ! No noise, no recoil, just burning cardboard and melting steel. hehehe

Oh yeah, AND a jet pack.

[ErikW]

Rays, death or otherwise, are difficult to chronograph and don't meet minimum bullet weights.

[kimel]

I wonder how expensive the bullets will be for a frictionless magnet-accelerated rail gun.

I wouldn't worry about the cost of the bullets. If you can afford the blaster, the cost of the bullets shouldn't be too bad.

But you aren't shooting at my steel with it.

[KentG]

Rays, death or otherwise, are difficult to chronograph and don't meet minimum bullet weights.

Im not a scientist and I didnt sleep at a Holiday Inn last nite but doesnt light have mass, however slight? Using the standard of fomulas for PF's there must be an awnser. Maybe I should put down the Jim Beam Black before I type.

[Scooter]

They next step should be the caseless round. It would speed up cycling time since you won't have to eject an empty case. And even better, you don't have to pick up brass.

[kimel]

Yes, a photon has mass. Not much though. And, if it made minimum PF we would all be dead.

"Rays" would obstensibly operate by shooting highly energized particles at a target which would then impart this energy to the target causing it to burn up or disintegrate or whatever. The mass of the particles would still be miniscule and, unless Einstein and others were wrong, could not exceed the speed of light...at least until we build Warp field generators. But since we haven't mastered jet packs yet, I doubt the Warp generator is in the near future.

Jim Beam Black good. But Labott & Graham Woodford Private Reserve is a better shooter solvent...at least to my tastes.

[Skywalker]

Guess y'all never heard about this project from Tanfoglio.

It's a fixed-barrel, blowback design in 9 and 10 mm (9 for open, 10 for standard), based on a thicker brass at the base.

According to Italian gunzines, an open prototype has been developed and tested by reigning world champion Eric G, too bad nobody wrote down his impressions after the test!

[Julien Boit]

I spoke about that gun with Eric once, and He told me that the main issue is brass cost.

They are really special and are only made by one manufacturer.

The principle looks good, but I'd be curious to shoot one and see how it works.

I believe there is no real improvement for us with this.

Maybe in 9mm, the case has in fact the same internal volume as a 9x19, and son you can make major, but what about the 10mm ?

Back to the thread, as somebody said, no real "major" improvement has been made since 1911 except for the modulars frame.

The system is still the same and would be for a long time !

The rest is material improvement and components improvement.

The equipment curve had flattened until someone shows something really new.

Maybe that Gas gun, SPS is working on something like this .