mikeg1005 Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) Hey how it going. I have a problem that I need you guys to give me some advice on. I do pretty good on paper targets, rarely get a Mike, most of the time is two alphas on occassion alpha charlie... I went through a bunch of matches and on average throwing out very high and very low scores, I hit about 85-90% of the points... I'm less that 1% short of B class in single stack. I have developed this habbit of pointing and shooting and it works good for me... close targets, I point and get my hits, and the farther away they get, the more I use the sights, and still get good hits... I have heard mixed reviews about this, but for me it works, becuase I can shoot a lot faster with "not aiming" on close stuff. But with steel, I have a HORRIBLE habit of attempting to do the same. The club I shoot at recently started to set up 8 popper shooting positions, and with only 9 rounds in the gun, there is no room for error... and even worse... one miss = slide lock. I have figured out the two main things I do wrong when shooting steel, the first one, is I listen for the hit, instead of seeing/calling it, and the second problem is, when the clocks on, I can't get myself to "aim" at the steel. The first problem I'm getting out of the habit of, but the second one I still can't get... I can set up a paper target the size of the middle of a popper when practicing and I can get the hit, no problem, I can infact get multiple hits, shooting pretty fast. This past weekend we shot a match where we had to shoot through a tank turret thing, which caused you to have to shoot slower cause you had to move the turret to see the targets... I got 8/8 hits on the steel and at a good speed(since I didn't miss)... It dawned on me that moving the turret while aiming caused me to slow everything down including my front post allowing me to aim how I needed to... I clocked in a time that most limited guys were getting and I had to do two mag changes after the turret to finish the course of fire. ... Next stage.... 16 poppers... 2 paper targets, 8 poppers from each side of a barracade... I ended up shooting a whole extra mag to knock all the steel down... and from that stage I realized, that instead of transitioning and aiming at the steel I will attempt to shoot it "on the fly"... it works on paper for me... but steel... I'll miss and then result in attempting to hose the steel again without aim... missing more. So... I know the answer is... well... slow down. My problem is still that I know to slow down and I tell myself this but, the buzzer goes, and I still try to "shoot on the fly." Any advice? Mike. Edited February 7, 2011 by mikeg1005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Double up your hearing protection during practice. Set up practice stages (with steel) and shoot them on the clock to replicate a match. Duel with a shooting buddy for lowest time. I like using a plate rack in practice because it is very enticing to watch the steel instead of the sight. When you miss, you were watching steel. Calling the shot is not easy to learn, but is a must to shoot fast and confidently. T.Tomasi showed a good drill on Shooting USA once. Should be able to find it online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 if you are just point shooting, you will NEVER learn to call your shots. to call your shot, you need to be watching the sights when the gun goes off, not just pointing it down range. I will point shoot a close-up open target as my index is good enough for close-up hoser stuff. anything else you need to be watching the front sight and breaking the shot when they are where you want them. its just something that takes time (like it took me all of last year to get the idea down and I still have a LOOOONG way to go, haha) but it will come with practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I think you're going to find that this "point shooting at close targets" doesn't work. Until you learn to call every shot, every time, near or far, paper or steel, you're just buying points on luck rather than skill. There is no reason you can't get a flash sight picture for every shot. It's training your eyes to get that faster that will improve your position in this game. It seems to me what you need is on the order of a Tiger Woods golf swing change. It might be painful in the short run, but learning to aim can only pay off in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Call - every - shot. Took me a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 the only advice i can give you is to work on visual patience.... you are obviously not waiting for the shot to be there before you pull the trigger.. If your shooting SS you have to shoot the steel deliberately, like you said there is never room for error.... how often do you practice group shooting? what's your best group at 7 10 and 15 yards? if you groups are good then your not exercising discipline when engaging the steel.. one of the breakthroughs i made in recent times is realizing a good shooter is not a shot maker but more of a shot catcher/hunter. we don't so much make a shot, as much as we wait for the shot we're looking for to appear before us, so we can then execute it... our physical ability we'll have a great deal to do with how long it takes for that shot to appear, but we must still wait for it to appear before us so we can catch it (execute it)! search for "Visual Patience" in the forum.. I'm sure you will find some good topics that might hit very close to home... good luck, Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 So... I know the answer is... well... slow down. Negative. Any advice? Aim. Learn what "call the shot" really means, and do it for each and every shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 While i think calling shot's is a most have skill, i don't think that is the problem here... calling the shot is... to know where the bullet hit by recalling the sight alignment and picture when the shot broke... calling your shot doesn't help you hit the target.. it helps you know when you missed a shot you can call the shot all day long, but with out visual patience you will be calling those tight shots Mikes cheers, Los. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) if you are just point shooting, you will NEVER learn to call your shots. to call your shot, you need to be watching the sights when the gun goes off, not just pointing it down range. There is no reason you can't get a flash sight picture for every shot. I was sitting here and thinking about what you guys wrote and how I shoot... Next time I'm out I'm going to make a mental note to focus on this... I know for a fact that medium/long range shots I always have focus on the front post, I recall that in my memory... for close up shots, the "point and shoot" is the way I describe it... but I will have to remember to check if I am just "pointing" or actually using the front post. I have a feeling that I am focusing on the front post though.. and the reason is because when I do mess up a close shot I realize that, and know that I simply held the gun out and pulled the trigger, but when I get 2 alphas, I can't recall what I did... just did it and it worked. Another reason that makes me believe this is when there are close targets with only headshots exposed I get 2 alphas probably 60% of the time and the other 40% is alpha/bravo, 2 bravo... and I don't think thats becuase I'm getting lucky by just pointing. the only advice i can give you is to work on visual patience.... you are obviously not waiting for the shot to be there before you pull the trigger.. how often do you practice group shooting? what's your best group at 7 10 and 15 yards? if you groups are good then your not exercising discipline when engaging the steel.. I think thats probably the best way to describe what I'm doing wrong on the steel... I can group good at those distances no problem... I typically try to get in a few mags of ammo after practice matches once a week... doing some quick sight picture shooting, longer distance as well as strong/weak hand... I'm going to look that up, thanks for the advice. As far as "calling the shots"... I'm nowhere near good at it... I can definitely call a miss and most of the times pick it up... I have noticed that I am able to call deltas now... but alpha/charlie area is still in the haze but I have a feeling I will pick that up as time goes. MIke. Edited February 8, 2011 by mikeg1005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 My good buddy helped me with this very problem and it was a quick fix. He told me to keep my focus on the front sight. I was lifting off as I broke the shot to see if the steel fell. Didn't even realize I was doing it until he told me this. I don't do that on paper because, well, I can't see the damned holes anyway. This weekend we had a steel intensive match and I only had to shoot makeup shots at a one large popper that was really close when my subconscious said "Aw, go ahead and hose it, you don't need to aim." Not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 My good buddy helped me with this very problem and it was a quick fix. He told me to keep my focus on the front sight. I was lifting off as I broke the shot to see if the steel fell. Didn't even realize I was doing it until he told me this. I don't do that on paper because, well, I can't see the damned holes anyway. This weekend we had a steel intensive match and I only had to shoot makeup shots at a one large popper that was really close when my subconscious said "Aw, go ahead and hose it, you don't need to aim." Not so much. Good stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 My good buddy helped me with this very problem and it was a quick fix. He told me to keep my focus on the front sight. I was lifting off as I broke the shot to see if the steel fell. Didn't even realize I was doing it until he told me this. I don't do that on paper because, well, I can't see the damned holes anyway. This weekend we had a steel intensive match and I only had to shoot makeup shots at a one large popper that was really close when my subconscious said "Aw, go ahead and hose it, you don't need to aim." Not so much. This. Steel is much easier to look at than paper, because it does something when you shoot it. That's why you miss, you focus on the steel more than you focus on the paper (I did this for a year, having my focus somewhere between and shooting through the sights on every target)so you think you're seeing the same amount of sights, but you're not. The only thing that changes as targets move closer is the quality of sight picture that is acceptable, not the quality of focus. Maybe at two yards and in you can go pure index, but not much farther, and usually it's no faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewColonial Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I should print this thread out. Nothing kills my self-esteem faster than shooting a falling steel match. I'm pretty sure I'm watch the steel more than then the front sight. I especially like the observation about not watching paper since I can't see the holes anyway. That's me for sure! Thanks for sharing the tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I have a similar problem and I think I know why... Most of the time in matches and in practice, we shoot at full sized cardboard targets. We get used to centering our sights on a big brown background and it starts to be come natural. In a way, the target becomes a part of that sight picture. With steel, the target is narrower and a different shape and it throws off our (or at least my) sight picture. Same for partly hidden targets - they are a different shape so we get mentally confused. Obviously, the solution is practice. I can't practice on steel because I don't have any and wouldn't have any place to shoot it anyway. But it occurs to me that it might be possible to make some popper cutouts from paper and stick them on regular targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I have a similar problem and I think I know why... Most of the time in matches and in practice, we shoot at full sized cardboard targets. We get used to centering our sights on a big brown background and it starts to be come natural. In a way, the target becomes a part of that sight picture. With steel, the target is narrower and a different shape and it throws off our (or at least my) sight picture. Same for partly hidden targets - they are a different shape so we get mentally confused. Obviously, the solution is practice. I can't practice on steel because I don't have any and wouldn't have any place to shoot it anyway. But it occurs to me that it might be possible to make some popper cutouts from paper and stick them on regular targets. I think you suffer from a lack a visual patience as well If you take an extra tenth of a second to refine your sight picture and aligment this problem will go away.. A target is a target... Standard, metric, popper, plate, etc. They all require that you acquire The proper sight picture and aligment to execute the shot.. If you start shooting a smaller targets in practice (like 2 inch shoot and c's). You will start to develop visual patience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Do you have a plate rack you can practice on? This is where I learned to call shots. Start close, and just ride that front sight with your eyes as you run the rack. You will get good and fast not missing much at all because you will be focused on that front sight picture. Then move back five yards and do the same. Then move back five yards and do the same. Then move back five yards and do the same. As you get further away you will slow some, but you will still be calling your shots. It will come to you if you relax and just let that front sight be your guide and not really thinking about aiming but trusting that front sight. I notice how guys seem to tense up on the steel. This leads to bad shooting and lack of trust with sight picture. Your sights don't lie. Don't confuse slow shooting with the ability to see more. It's sometimes that relaxed shooting that allows you to just see, and not get tense second-guessing your sights. Just a little something that I learned last year shooting production for the first time, and I made C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 Unforunately I don't have any steel to practice on... the club that holds Thursday night shoots has stuff like that... and I'd like to join but with school I have a lot to do and I got to get a few things done to become a member. MIke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Unforunately I don't have any steel to practice on... the club that holds Thursday night shoots has stuff like that... and I'd like to join but with school I have a lot to do and I got to get a few things done to become a member. MIke. Stakes and paper-plates works too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 just to be clear visual patience is not about shooting slower... is about shooting as soon as the shot shows up, this is the same as shooting as fast as you could possibly execute the shot with out missing... sometimes when i read this posts i think that allot of shooters definition of "calling the shot" is much different than mine Calling your shot is knowing where the bullet hit, by simply recalling the sight picture and alignment when the shot broke.... it is a skill who's only purpose is to monitor, and gauge the quality of a shot while operating at speed this action does not happen before or during the shot. it happens right after the shot has been performed. so it can't really have an effect on the quality of the shot.. I guess that what I'm trying to say is that a mike does not equal not calling the shot... harder shots are more about patience and discipline... steel in particular are mostly used to test our patience and discipline.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Your sights don't lie. Awesome.... the single most important thing that can be said about all shooting "issues". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kreativecid Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Stance, grip, front sight. Learn to trust your front sight. Easier said than done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkatz44 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 See your front sight, pull the trigger straight to the rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik S. Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) This might be taking a step TOO far back, but make sure you know where your gun shoots at different distances with the same POA. Put targets from 5-50 yards and shoot a few rounds each to observe your POI's. A good drill for calling your shots is from Saul Kirsch's book "Perfect Practice". I won't give too much info because you need to buy the book for your sake anyway as well as support the literature that's out there for this great sport. Essentially, shoot a target at a decent distance (25m) and immediately look away after the shot and CALL where it went (ex: middle left Charlie, or high Alpha). You can also mark it on a piece of paper. If you don't know where the shot went, you're probably blinking. This might take a few tries so try a bill drill or 2 beforehand so you know what the sights look like when you keep your eyes open. Wherever your sights were just before they bounced during recoil is where your shot went. Edited February 9, 2011 by Erik S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelican82 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 A friend of mine who is a GM class shooter told me "Don't shoot at the steel, shoot the steel" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 A great shooter once told me "There is no spoon." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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