Kyle O Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I do it the politically correct way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
45 Raven Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Well, I might as well weigh in here. I participated in "API 250 - General Pistol" at Gunsite (then called "The American Pistol Institute")at Paulden, Arizona in March, 1981. The class was 5 1/2 days long. I had two instructors. One was named Jeff Cooper The other was named Clint Smith. They personally press checked their 1911 pistols by placing their thumb INSIDE the front portion of the trigger guard and the "pad" portion of their index finger just below the barrel over the recoil spring plug, and "pinched" the the slide back an adequate distance to perform a chamber check. And they taught all 48 students enrolled in the class to do the same. And for several years thereafter, I checked the chamber on my pistols exactly that way every time I prepared to carry them or after I had shot and reloaded them. This included in "IPSC" matches in the Tucson and Phoenix area in the early 1980's. By around 1982 or 1983 (to the best of my recollection) numerous gun clubs, match officials, and rangemasters would not allow this methodology for a chamber check. So while this approach may have "come from the movies" for some, it didn't have its beginning that way for many. Not arguing that it is the right way or wrong way to peform a chamber check. Just stating facts that at one time, two of the most prestigious pistol experts in the world taught their students to do it that way. When I returned to Gunsite in 1993 for "350 - Intermediate Pistol", that process was no longer being used or demonstrated as a teaching methodology. Times change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adively Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Webster defines a finger as , any of the five terminating members of the hand, If you are press checking you are still in the process of loading. Not acccording to how Amidon defined it once, recently.... Nik, Do you remember what was being resolved by Amidon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Well, I might as well weigh in here. I participated in "API 250 - General Pistol" at Gunsite (then called "The American Pistol Institute")at Paulden, Arizona in March, 1981. The class was 5 1/2 days long. I had two instructors. One was named Jeff Cooper The other was named Clint Smith. They personally press checked their 1911 pistols by placing their thumb INSIDE the front portion of the trigger guard and the "pad" portion of their index finger just below the barrel over the recoil spring plug, and "pinched" the the slide back an adequate distance to perform a chamber check. And they taught all 48 students enrolled in the class to do the same. And for several years thereafter, I checked the chamber on my pistols exactly that way every time I prepared to carry them or after I had shot and reloaded them. This included in "IPSC" matches in the Tucson and Phoenix area in the early 1980's. By around 1982 or 1983 (to the best of my recollection) numerous gun clubs, match officials, and rangemasters would not allow this methodology for a chamber check. So while this approach may have "come from the movies" for some, it didn't have its beginning that way for many. Not arguing that it is the right way or wrong way to peform a chamber check. Just stating facts that at one time, two of the most prestigious pistol experts in the world taught their students to do it that way. When I returned to Gunsite in 1993 for "350 - Intermediate Pistol", that process was no longer being used or demonstrated as a teaching methodology. Times change. Thanks for that insight and history lesson, Ken. Very educational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Webster defines a finger as , any of the five terminating members of the hand, If you are press checking you are still in the process of loading. Not acccording to how Amidon defined it once, recently.... Nik, Do you remember what was being resolved by Amidon? The definition of loading or reloading came up, and Amidon basically said that the loading process wasn't complete until the mag was in the gun and the slide had been released/round had been chambered. I find it hard to equate a press check with loading. I'd probably attempt to teach -- including pointing out that if the shooter swept so much as a portion of their finger while attempting to get to or come off of the end of the guide rod, their day would be over.... Then again, I see most people press check by pull checking, i.e. pulling back the slide by either rear or occasionally front serrations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun HandlingExamples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to: Putting a thumb in the trigger guard during loading is one of many unsafe actions not specifically listed in 10.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 It was routinely done in the 70's and early 80's...and I never saw anyone have a problem...sometimes even pistol shooting can get too politically correct.... It doesn't have anything to do with politically correct. It has to do with rules and safety. FWIW, I used to hunt and shoot skeet with a bunch of guys who thought nothing of taking a cooler of beer to the range or a bottle of whiskey to the duck blind. No one ever got shot but that doesn't make it a good idea to knock back a few between stages. Can't comment on the rules that may or may not apply, but if done correctly, it is as safe as many other things I have seen done at matches which are condoned by the rules and the RO's...they don't use cross draw holsters, or sternum holsters, no more weakhand only reloads, no more original Cooper Assualt courses,but they were all routinely done early on in the sport...it appears that we are trying to be saved from ourselves by the rules, but lack of those rules did not prevent early shooters from competing safely when those rules were not in force... We are not talking about drinking and shooting, but are discussing the simple press check...have seen the more dangerous practice of racking the last round out of the chamber hard enough to toss it into the air and catch it...one is just about as likely as the other to cause a discharge or problem... I suppose that a drunk or careless person could cover part of their hand while press checking, but the careful, sober shooter likely never would... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Doesn't anyone use a Barney mag anymore? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 There are so many other, MUCH safer ways to check the chamber. This idiot not only needs a DQ but a slap to the back of the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 There are so many other, MUCH safer ways to check the chamber. This idiot not only needs a DQ but a slap to the back of the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Wait a minute... So the conclusion from these threads about a loaded sight picture was that it was legal to put your finger in the trigger guard: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=104188&view=findpost&p=1185369 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=104013&view=findpost&p=1183400 But now in this thread, we are saying that the press check is illegal because of putting your finger (thumb in this case) in the trigger guard? I'm so confused. BTW, it's one of these threads that has Amidon's old 2006 response to Steve Z, and a 2010 response to Chuck A about when loading is considered complete. My opinion based an the older threads is that loading is considered complete when there is a bullet in the chamber. Based on that, a press check (that doesn't sweep fingers) that confirms there is a bullet in the chamber would not be a DQ for finger in the trigger guard while loading since loading has been completed. On the other hand, if the press check shows an empty chamber will unfortunately be a DQ for a finger in the trigger guard while loading. Of course, now there is the interesting can of worms opened if the shooter is in Production division and they don't have a decocker so they have to manually lower the hammer. In my mind, they aren't DQ'd if they find an empty chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Wait a minute... So the conclusion from these threads about a loaded sight picture was that it was legal to put your finger in the trigger guard: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=104188&view=findpost&p=1185369 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=104013&view=findpost&p=1183400 But now in this thread, we are saying that the press check is illegal because of putting your finger (thumb in this case) in the trigger guard? I'm so confused. BTW, it's one of these threads that has Amidon's old 2006 response to Steve Z, and a 2010 response to Chuck A about when loading is considered complete. My opinion based an the older threads is that loading is considered complete when there is a bullet in the chamber. Based on that, a press check (that doesn't sweep fingers) that confirms there is a bullet in the chamber would not be a DQ for finger in the trigger guard while loading since loading has been completed. On the other hand, if the press check shows an empty chamber will unfortunately be a DQ for a finger in the trigger guard while loading. Of course, now there is the interesting can of worms opened if the shooter is in Production division and they don't have a decocker so they have to manually lower the hammer. In my mind, they aren't DQ'd if they find an empty chamber. Can you have too many rules...kind of like asking the question if government can be too big to be effective??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Rule or not It makes my day to see the Loopster posting Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 1. Loading is still being performed - you are "manipulating" the slide when you do a press check and your digit is in the guard. I chamber check by coming up under the slide and pinching it between my thumb and forfinger and pressing the gun forward to look. Do I need to, no, but it's part of my routine and I have regularly done something stupid like press half too hard and half eject the round. Checking is fine, doing it without sticking a finger in the guard is fine. 2. Sky - taking a loaded sight picture is fine - you're not in the process of loading the gun at the time of acquiring the picture. If I take a sight picture while I'm sticking a mag in the gun and have my finger still going "fake bang" - DQ me then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) 1. Loading is still being performed - you are "manipulating" the slide when you do a press check and your digit is in the guard. I chamber check by coming up under the slide and pinching it between my thumb and forfinger and pressing the gun forward to look. Do I need to, no, but it's part of my routine and I have regularly done something stupid like press half too hard and half eject the round. Checking is fine, doing it without sticking a finger in the guard is fine. 2. Sky - taking a loaded sight picture is fine - you're not in the process of loading the gun at the time of acquiring the picture. If I take a sight picture while I'm sticking a mag in the gun and have my finger still going "fake bang" - DQ me then. So if a shooter does a loaded sight picture (including sticking a finger in the trigger guard) followed by a press check with the thumb in the trigger guard, DQ or no DQ? Edited February 1, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun HandlingExamples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to: Putting a thumb in the trigger guard during loading is one of many unsafe actions not specifically listed in 10.5 Um, except that putting the thumb or finger in the trigger guard is specifically covered under 10.5.9. Press checking isn't loading. There are also exceptions built into 10.5.9 for a couple of situations, so clearly this isn't black and white..... If I'm going to make the call, I'd like it to be arbitration-resistant at minimum, here I'm not sure I've got that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) At the make ready command shooter chambers a round, inserts full mag then does a press check to make sure a round is in the chamber. Puts thumnb in front portion of trigger guard and finger on guide rod and squeezes slide back ever so slightly to see round in chamber. Is this a safety violation? while i don't know if this is legal or not.. i do think that there are much better and safer ways to do a press check. if it was me i would just show the shooter a better safer way to do a press check Edited February 1, 2011 by carlosa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Gary, Goerge, Troy .... Any guidance from the NROI crowd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 is not just about having a finger on the trigger gaurd, it's also having a finger on the guide rod... if you ask me you might as well be muzzling your finger.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 My opinion based an the older threads is that loading is considered complete when there is a bullet in the chamber. Based on that, a press check (that doesn't sweep fingers) that confirms there is a bullet in the chamber would not be a DQ for finger in the trigger guard while loading since loading has been completed. On the other hand, if the press check shows an empty chamber will unfortunately be a DQ for a finger in the trigger guard while loading. Of course, now there is the interesting can of worms opened if the shooter is in Production division and they don't have a decocker so they have to manually lower the hammer. In my mind, they aren't DQ'd if they find an empty chamber. I forgot to preface the paragraph above with some sarcasm tags. Sorry for the miscommunication. Also note one of the ugly consequences if we accept the definition that loading is complete when a round is in the chamber. Consider this scenario: 1) "Make Ready". Shooter draws the gun, and loads a magazine, half-heartedly racks the slide (or completely forgets to rack the slide) failing to chamber a round, puts on the safety or lowers the hammer, holsters his gun, and assumes the start position. "Are You Ready?" "Standby" "Beep" Shooter draws, aims at target, and Click. Do you as the RO say "Stop" because the shooter obviously put their finger into the trigger guard and loading was not complete by virtue of the bullet not being chambered? 2) During a COF a production shooter miscounts his rounds and shoots 11 instead of 10, performs a reload, and then gets back up on target, and pulls the trigger. Do you as the RO say "Stop" because the shooter obviously put their finger into the trigger guard and reloading was not complete by virtue of the bullet not being chambered? I hope, the answer is: no, these are not DQ's, although the definition above seems a bit absurd. Perhaps we should follow Geoge's wisdom when he wrote in http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=104013&view=findpost&p=1183908: Loading/reloading/unloading are shooter actions, not a gun condition. Each of them require several steps to complete. If there is an interuption (sic) between any of those steps, the shooter is no longer "in the act of...". The finger may once again be in the trigger guard until such time as the next step of L/R/U process begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Why is everyone (most everyone) so DQ happy? The gun is safely pointed down range if he cracks one off that is clearly covered as a DQable offense. I'm a big supporter and teacher of the press check though I don't do it this way. I think most guns now have a full length guide rod anyway so it doesn't work. What about CZ production guns that require pulling of the trigger to lower the hammer during the loading process? Same deal, probably not the safest thing possible to do on the planet but whats the big deal. Assuming all rules are being followed the gun is safely pointed down range, if he cracks one off then you get to call your coveted DQ. Keep all this in the context that I also run with scissors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 1. Loading is still being performed - you are "manipulating" the slide when you do a press check and your digit is in the guard. I chamber check by coming up under the slide and pinching it between my thumb and forfinger and pressing the gun forward to look. Do I need to, no, but it's part of my routine and I have regularly done something stupid like press half too hard and half eject the round. Checking is fine, doing it without sticking a finger in the guard is fine. 2. Sky - taking a loaded sight picture is fine - you're not in the process of loading the gun at the time of acquiring the picture. If I take a sight picture while I'm sticking a mag in the gun and have my finger still going "fake bang" - DQ me then. So if a shooter does a loaded sight picture (including sticking a finger in the trigger guard) followed by a press check with the thumb in the trigger guard, DQ or no DQ? In a press check, you moving the slide, right? DQ. No one says you can't go through the loading process, pause it, then continue it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) The press check it self is not illegal.. I do it every time as part of my make ready procedure. Sometimes more than once.. As long as you press check with out pointing the muzzle of your gun at your hand or put your finger on the trigger you are ok.. It is the specific technic of how this press check was perform that can lead to a unsafe action.. And possibly a dq.. Edited February 1, 2011 by carlosa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Why is everyone (most everyone) so DQ happy? The gun is safely pointed down range if he cracks one off that is clearly covered as a DQable offense. I'm a big supporter and teacher of the press check though I don't do it this way. I think most guns now have a full length guide rod anyway so it doesn't work. What about CZ production guns that require pulling of the trigger to lower the hammer during the loading process? Same deal, probably not the safest thing possible to do on the planet but whats the big deal. Assuming all rules are being followed the gun is safely pointed down range, if he cracks one off then you get to call your coveted DQ. Keep all this in the context that I also run with scissors. +1 except, I am not a supporter or teacher of the press check. I feel it is a waist of time. I have not personnally witnessed somebody load and make ready, not perform a press check and have the gun go silent. I have seen many times a gun not fully go into battery and go click after a press check. I have also seen a couple go boom out of battery...ouch. I get a real kick out of those that come up to the line and have like a dance routine to the load and make ready that often takes longer than the stage does to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) Why is everyone (most everyone) so DQ happy? The gun is safely pointed down range if he cracks one off that is clearly covered as a DQable offense. I'm a big supporter and teacher of the press check though I don't do it this way. I think most guns now have a full length guide rod anyway so it doesn't work. What about CZ production guns that require pulling of the trigger to lower the hammer during the loading process? Same deal, probably not the safest thing possible to do on the planet but whats the big deal. Assuming all rules are being followed the gun is safely pointed down range, if he cracks one off then you get to call your coveted DQ. Keep all this in the context that I also run with scissors. +1 except, I am not a supporter or teacher of the press check. I feel it is a waist of time. I have not personnally witnessed somebody load and make ready, not perform a press check and have the gun go silent. I have seen many times a gun not fully go into battery and go click after a press check. I have also seen a couple go boom out of battery...ouch. I get a real kick out of those that come up to the line and have like a dance routine to the load and make ready that often takes longer than the stage does to shoot. Hey i dance more than most.. But its doing my dAnce helps me get mentally ready.. I can tell you that I've forgotten many things while making ready.. 1)stage description for a classified 2)the sound of the timer 3)to stick a fresh magazine after a Barney 4)to rack the slide 5)to check if my magazine is fully seated.. Etc So I have a dance routine... As long as I always do the same dance routine I don't forget any of this things My routine even involves me racing my arms and trying to shake the jitters off while a breath deeply and sometimes loudly You might think its silly, but i know it helps my mental preparation... Edited February 1, 2011 by carlosa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now