Stage Design

[Coach]

I have a stage designed for an upcoming Section Championship. It is approved but there is still some leeway with set up.

Say I have a wall that is 8 feet long and 7 feet tall. I am going to cut some high ports in it and some low ports in it. If the same targets can be shot from the high port and from the low port but the high port is about 5'7" off the ground and the low port is about 8" off the ground. Is this legal? Some short folks cannot use the tall port.

I frequently hear that "everyone can get lower, but we cannot all get taller" I am tempted to explode this myth. What if the same situation happens two or three times? Meaning short folks are going to have to transition from low ports several times.

This has not happened yet but I am planning for the summer.

What do the people say? If you think it is illegal I would like to see the rule please.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Coach

[yoshidaex]

2.1.6?

[Nik Habicht]

If I was the RM, I wouldn't sign off on a stage like this under 1.1.6:

1.1.6 Difficulty – USPSA matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. This does not apply to nonshooting challenges, which should reasonably allow for differences in competitor’s height and physical build.

By your description, you've created a scenario where some folks get to shoot from a standing position, while others need to go prone -- that's not quite the same as some shooting standing straight up, while others need to squat.....

Ask yourself why you want to create this particular stage this way....

[sperman]

I might also point to 1.1.6, 1.1.8 and/or 4.6.1. I would be surprised if a state level MD or RM would let you set something like that up, but stranger things have happened.

1.1.6 Difficulty – USPSA matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. This does not apply to nonshooting challenges, which should reasonably allow for differences in competitor’s height and physical build.

1.1.8 Scenarios and Stage Props — The use of scenarios and reasonable stage props is encouraged. Care must be exercised, however, to avoid unrealistic non-shooting requirements which detract from the shooting challenge and/or may expose competitors to potentially unsafe conditions.

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. ...

[Coach]

Some of these points have been on my mind. A stage as I described would put the lie to the whole "everyone can get lower" argument though wouldn't it.

Low ports suck for big people and most times no one cares. But they should based on the number of XXXL match shirts sold.

[yoshidaex]

The way I see it, a tall person can utilize either the high port standing as is or go prone on a low port.

The same can't be said for a short person.

[Coach]

The way I see it, a tall person can utilize either the high port standing as is or go prone on a low port.

The same can't be said for a short person.

That is exactly right. Therefore I see the ethical connumbdrumb. Part of me wants to forge ahead and the other part of me wants to sleep at night.

[sperman]

If you put a step by the high port, it might work.

I know where you are coming from. So many matches require even a medium sized shooter ('m 5' 10") to squat to shoot through ports. I have a short friend who doesn't have to change his shooting position at all for these ports. It doesn't seem like a equal challenge to all shooters.

[Corey]

eliminate the ports and instead make them 7" wide slits in the walls. then no matter how tall or short you are, you have the same window of opportunity.

As for the thread post and idea, it doesnt seem 100% fair to everyone. you could put ports at varying heights in the wall sections that are staggered at a variety of heights, then the shooters just pick which port they want to engage from. its another idea.

[ChuckS]

As a 6' 4", I sort of like where you are coming from but I don't think I would do that for anything close to a sectional. There are other ways to present challenges. That said, we have guys who are fairly short and do pretty well (JoJo comes to mind) and we also have a semi-well known GM who is about 6' 8" who manages to navigate most COFs just fine. Do it for a "club match to remember" but skip the sectional.

Later,

Chuck

(remember, sometimes short guys build stages )

[spanky]

It'd be cool if you cut a rectangular, diagonal port in the middle of the wall

[Coach]

As a 6' 4", I sort of like where you are coming from but I don't think I would do that for anything close to a sectional. There are other ways to present challenges. That said, we have guys who are fairly short and do pretty well (JoJo comes to mind) and we also have a semi-well known GM who is about 6' 8" who manages to navigate most COFs just fine. Do it for a "club match to remember" but skip the sectional.

Later,

Chuck

(remember, sometimes short guys build stages )

Yes you are right, the short guys are in Nebraska.

[coldchar]

\

Not sure where you are coming from with this question. Assuming this is a challenge, I think 1.1.2 Also applies, courses are designed to test shooting skills , not their physical abilities. (or assumeably their height)/

Jim

[Flexmoney]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[coldchar]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

A philosopher in our midst.

Jim

[JakeMartens]

Here is the stage

excuse_me.DOC

Talked about adding a slot in the middle maybe

[Nik Habicht]

Some of these points have been on my mind. A stage as I described would put the lie to the whole "everyone can get lower" argument though wouldn't it.

Low ports suck for big people and most times no one cares. But they should based on the number of XXXL match shirts sold.

Sure -- I'm there with you. On the other hand, being tall helps me at nearly every match. Either I can shoot a target a step or two sooner, or I can get an angle on a popper hidden behind another, or I can eliminate a position....

Does that make up for low ports? Nope, not entirely....

That said, I think the way to get rid of 'em is by example. And frankly, I don't want to be able to shoot every position from a comfortable standing position. I like the challenges -- and I really like matches where they're pretty well spread around...

[Skydiver]

Here is the stage

excuse_me.DOC

Talked about adding a slot in the middle maybe

According to that stage description, T4, T5, and T9 and T11 are not visible from the lower ports.

I stand 5' 2". Around here we also have ladies and junior shooters who are shorter than I am. When I run tall shooters, I have to be careful to stand far enough away to avoid getting an

elbow in the eye when they draw. :-)

<tongue in cheek>

I'll help you blow out the myth that "everyone can get lower, but we cannot all get taller". Assuming you followed rule 2.2.6 (Props must be strong enough to withstand use by all competitors.), I would take advantage of rule 2.2.2.3 (Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such barriers, walls, vision barriers and snow fence barriers will be considered to go from the ground to the height as constructed.) I would shoot T1, T2, T3, T6, T7, T8, T10, T11 and then re-holster my gun. Taking advantage of my rusty rock climbing skills, I'll use the low port like a ladder rung, and holding on to the top off the wall, I'll haul myself up the wall and put my feet on the upper port and then stand up and presumably get a clear view of all the remaining targets from above the top of the wall. I'll then draw and shoot the rest of the targets from that position.

</tongue in cheek>

(I don't think I'll get DQ'd for this since 2.1.9 is only against climbing berms, not props. 10.5.4 is about drawing inside a tunnel, not about being on an elevated platform.)

Seriously though:

IF the platform shown in the diagram were about 6 to 8 inches above the ground, and if the geometry were such that T4, T5, T9, and T11 are visible from the platform, then I'll shoot from the platform through the high ports.

IF geometry didn't allow for it, and since I won't be able to see through the high ports up at 5'7", I'll have to shoot blind and one handed "gangsta" style or else I'll get failure to engage penalties on top off (sorry for the pun) the misses on those targets. Alternately, I may try put on or two feet on the low ports lower edge as a step, use my weak hand to hold on the edge of the high port, and shoot one handed, but at least get to aim at the targets.

(I assume that if I shoot blind and one handed, and a round goes over the berm, or hits the ground less than 10 feet on the other side of the wall, I'll be DQ'ed, so I'll have to be extra careful. Presumably, the RO running me will tall enough to see through the port and notice if such an incident happens.)

Let's say I do climb up the wall. (Which is going to suck since I don't like heights. Yes it's true: A skydiver and rock climber who doesn't like heights.) How quickly will the laughs and giggles over my monkey impression turn into a brownpants moment when the RO and/or the peanut gallery end up staring into the muzzle of my holstered gun as I climb up the wall? When I finally get to the top and draw, does the 3 foot radius around my feet where the gun can point while holstered expand out like a cone? (Or the question rephrased: Will the same draw on the ground that doesn't break the 180, suddenly be considered breaking the 180 if performed standing on top of a chair, table, or step ladder?)

[Flexmoney]

I assume you are going to use a barrel/tube...so that T6 & T7 are only available from the low port (which is fine...everybody has to shoot them there)?

Above that, instead of another barrel/tube on each side, I'd use a vertical slot.

[Jay870]

So it sounds like you're proposing designing a stage to intentionally put shooters of a certain stature at a known disadvantage. Aside from the 1.x rules cited above, I can say that I wouldn't pay a match fee to attend or otherwise be involved in a match where the stage designers are intentionally trying to "make a point" by screwing of some the shooters.

[High Lord Gomer]

...When I finally get to the top and draw, does the 3 foot radius around my feet where the gun can point while holstered expand out like a cone? (Or the question rephrased: Will the same draw on the ground that doesn't break the 180, suddenly be considered breaking the 180 if performed standing on top of a chair, table, or step ladder?)

I'd say no, the radius is in relation to your feet, not the ground.

10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor's feet while drawing or re-holstering.

Edited January 11, 2011 by High Lord Gomer

[centermass]

If you put a step by the high port, it might work

It is odd that the rules address scaling aids for obstacles over 3' high, but nothing about high ports for the height disadvantaged.

[JThompson]

I assume you are going to use a barrel/tube...so that T6 & T7 are only available from the low port (which is fine...everybody has to shoot them there)?

Above that, instead of another barrel/tube on each side, I'd use a vertical slot.

This is the proper solution... do not make an advantage for tall over short or reverse.

Also, designers need to keep left hand shooters in mind. Luckily we have a couple at our local match and they reminded me about it early in my stage design days. A hard lean for a right hand shooter might be impossible for a left hand guy. You need to take this into account too. I'm not talking about this stage, but designers in general, esp new ones, tend to miss this point.

JT

Edited January 11, 2011 by JThompson

[Coach]

Here is the stage

excuse_me.DOC

Talked about adding a slot in the middle maybe

This is not the stage I am talking about. This stage will be user friendly for all. All stages in the match will be user friendly for all. The discourse here as made up my mind.

[JakeMartens]

Here is the stage

excuse_me.DOC

Talked about adding a slot in the middle maybe

According to that stage description, T4, T5, and T9 and T11 are not visible from the lower ports.

I stand 5' 2". Around here we also have ladies and junior shooters who are shorter than I am. When I run tall shooters, I have to be careful to stand far enough away to avoid getting an

elbow in the eye when they draw. :-)

<tongue in cheek>

I'll help you blow out the myth that "everyone can get lower, but we cannot all get taller". Assuming you followed rule 2.2.6 (Props must be strong enough to withstand use by all competitors.), I would take advantage of rule 2.2.2.3 (Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such barriers, walls, vision barriers and snow fence barriers will be considered to go from the ground to the height as constructed.) I would shoot T1, T2, T3, T6, T7, T8, T10, T11 and then re-holster my gun. Taking advantage of my rusty rock climbing skills, I'll use the low port like a ladder rung, and holding on to the top off the wall, I'll haul myself up the wall and put my feet on the upper port and then stand up and presumably get a clear view of all the remaining targets from above the top of the wall. I'll then draw and shoot the rest of the targets from that position.

</tongue in cheek>

(I don't think I'll get DQ'd for this since 2.1.9 is only against climbing berms, not props. 10.5.4 is about drawing inside a tunnel, not about being on an elevated platform.)

Seriously though:

IF the platform shown in the diagram were about 6 to 8 inches above the ground, and if the geometry were such that T4, T5, T9, and T11 are visible from the platform, then I'll shoot from the platform through the high ports.

IF geometry didn't allow for it, and since I won't be able to see through the high ports up at 5'7", I'll have to shoot blind and one handed "gangsta" style or else I'll get failure to engage penalties on top off (sorry for the pun) the misses on those targets. Alternately, I may try put on or two feet on the low ports lower edge as a step, use my weak hand to hold on the edge of the high port, and shoot one handed, but at least get to aim at the targets.

(I assume that if I shoot blind and one handed, and a round goes over the berm, or hits the ground less than 10 feet on the other side of the wall, I'll be DQ'ed, so I'll have to be extra careful. Presumably, the RO running me will tall enough to see through the port and notice if such an incident happens.)

Let's say I do climb up the wall. (Which is going to suck since I don't like heights. Yes it's true: A skydiver and rock climber who doesn't like heights.) How quickly will the laughs and giggles over my monkey impression turn into a brownpants moment when the RO and/or the peanut gallery end up staring into the muzzle of my holstered gun as I climb up the wall? When I finally get to the top and draw, does the 3 foot radius around my feet where the gun can point while holstered expand out like a cone? (Or the question rephrased: Will the same draw on the ground that doesn't break the 180, suddenly be considered breaking the 180 if performed standing on top of a chair, table, or step ladder?)

Hey Good thing, I posted the wrong stage.....you don't have to climb anything or act like a monkey