Limited Naitonals - 2010

[pjb45]

I think I have finaly mellowed on a stage that was up at the 2010 Limited Nationals. I will post the stage number later.

Basically, the start position is 90 degrees from the back of the berm facing your first target. The target is actually at the 90 degree mark.

When shooters were loading their guns at Make Ready, the clipboard RO was standing behind everyone and warning about the "180" during the loading process. Which personally annoyed me - but that is a different whine.

I have been reviewing match videos of many GMs. The other night I watch a draw instruction by Phil Strader on Shooting USA or something like it.

Almost everytime, as the gun left the holster and the support hand was moving to the gun, the barrel of the gun move towards the center of the body, then as the gun approach eye level, the gun and barrel straighten out.

The point being on this stage, almost every draw the gun barrel broke the 90 degree rule.

To my incomplete knowledge, people were not DQ for their draws but some were for loading.

To me, this start position should not have been positioned the way it was position to cause shooters to break the rule on their draws.

[mhop]

when did personal responsibilty disapper? if a shooter breaks the 90 they go home plain and simple. was this stage 14?

[Skydiver]

Since I wasn't there, I'm assuming that the first target was on the left side of bay, and that you are talking about right handed shooters because I don't see an issue if the shooter was left handed.

I'm a righty and we had a similar start at our recent section match. I think the RO's for that stage had people face downrange, make ready, and then had them position their toes on the marks after they holstered. I don't recall any issues on the draw, since the only DQ over the entire 3 days was for AD on a completely different stage.

Was the muzzle pointing beyond the 3 feet radius allowed by 10.5.6 while holstering/drawing? Could either RO see the gun during the draw and building the grip?

(Interesting side question here: does 10.5.6 exception only apply if the shooter is facing downrange, what if the shooter is facing 90 degrees from the back berm like the OP asked?)

Edited December 29, 2010 by Skydiver

[twodownzero]

Stage designers should make a conscious effort to avoid these types of 180 traps. To me it serves no purpose to put targets even close to where a competitor might be motivated by the stage design to break the 180.

The stage that Flex and I worked at the Indiana match this year, unfortunately, had a few 180 breaks. In our case, it wasn't as much of a stage design issue as it was stage breakdown. One of the 180 breaks we had was a simple failure of the competitor to move his feet a few steps. He engaged a target that was behind him because his "plan" apparently involved engaging targets that were beyond the 180 from the wrong position. Another happened when a shooter was correcting a failure to feed by initiating a reload in an area where he probably didn't plan to do so--this one would have been impossible to avoid with stage design.

Experienced shooters seem to be extremely muzzle conscious and so these incidents are relatively rare, but I still think it's something that should be in the mind of every stage designer. It's just easier to take care of these issues before the first MR is issued to the first shooter.

I know that I've personally shot stages that I would have moved the targets just a few feet uprange to avoid the temptation of engaging targets from the wrong position. Others might not think that it matters that much, but I really think it does. Shooters are thinking about a lot of things at once while attacking a stage, and removing just one potential brain fart from a stage can go a long way.

Sometimes avoiding a 180 trap can be as simple as moving a vision barrier. if they can't see it, they won't try to shoot at it from the wrong spot.

It's a real bummer for me to issue a DQ to a competitor who hasn't put anyone in danger, but has violated the 180. I understand and sympathize with the importance of issuing the DQ because the rules require it and because it will hopefully be a learning experience for the shooter. That said, I'd prefer that we offer as few opportunities as possible for these sorts of situations to occur, because they are: 1. dangerous and 2. typically serve very little competitive issue other than to force a slightly longer transition to targets downrange (in other words, the shooter has to transition 180 degrees from left to right rather than 170 or 160.

We can't predict every method that a shooter might try to attack a stage, but sometimes it is pretty easy to remove a whole lot of temptation by merely moving the targets slightly or putting up a vision barrier that removes that temptation to risk a 180 break.

Edited December 29, 2010 by twodownzero

[Corey]

Without being there and without shooting the match or even seeing the stage, I dont think I have a problem with it. As long as you are not required to shoot past the 90* mark one way or the other, it seems fine. Thre have been a ton of stages where you start outside the shooting area and even when teh RO doesnt say anything, i always step inside the area to LAMR. then i step back out and assume the start position. This would be no different. Face directly down range, LAMR, then holster up and assume the 90* start position.

[Flexmoney]

We often talk about our belt and suspenders approach to safety...

[CHA-LEE]

I don't get it....... If the start position has you flirting with the 180, how in any way is that associated with making ready close to the 180? Every time I Make Ready for a stage run I face directly down range then proceed to draw and load my weapon. Once its holstered I will reposition myself into the starting position, wherever that may be. If the start has me flirting with the 180 I will usually give myself a generous bias towards the back berm so I am not breaking it during the draw. Why would you even consider making ready facing any other direction other than directly down range?

In all of the matches that I have attended I see two main types of shooters. The first, and also the vast majority of shooters, keep the muzzle pointed down range at all times. They know where they are at with respect to the back berm at all times so they can keep the muzzle pointed down range at all times. The second group of shooters are ones that basically lose all understanding of where they are at within the berm during a stage run and eventually end up pointing at a target up range and don't even realize what they are doing because they are so distracted by the process of shooting the stage. It usually does not take too many DQ's for these shooters to bring their attention to the fact that they can not get "Lost" in a stage and point at any target they see. More often than not, once is enough.

[sperman]

I've heard people say "the 180 goes with your shoulders." I have no idea what this means. If I turn my shoulders to face uprange, is it OK to point the gun uprange? If it confuses experienced shooters, it has to confuse the new guys.

(Sorry for the thread drift.)

[CAB33]

I don't see a problem with the stage in question.

Do you not like turn-n-draw starts either?

The 180 is part of the stage that you have to be aware of. if it is obvious or not.

Just like the targets on stage 18 from the 2010 Nationals that were right behind walls as you passed by.

You had to decide how to shoot them without breaking the 180 and not have it slow you down.

[Dwight Springthorpe]

This type of "180 trap" can happen at ULASC when the shooter has been moving to the side (left to right). The shooter finishes and is facing 85 degrees to the left and begins unloading

When I have a new shooter (and some experienced ones), I suggest that they turn and face downrange before unloading and temping the 180.

Dwight

[bdpaz]

Basically, the start position is 90 degrees from the back of the berm facing your first target. The target is actually at the 90 degree mark.

...

Almost everytime, as the gun left the holster and the support hand was moving to the gun, the barrel of the gun move towards the center of the body, then as the gun approach eye level, the gun and barrel straighten out.

The point being on this stage, almost every draw the gun barrel broke the 90 degree rule.

Don't think he is talking about LAMR.

[G-ManBart]

Three things come to mind. One, Make Ready should be done facing directly down range, and it doesn't hurt for the RO to tell the shooter to face down range (if not already doing so) before the command of Make Ready.

Two, are we sure that the centerline of the stage was perpendicular to the backstop on that stage? If not, the 180* may not have been perpendicular to the side berms....just a thought.

Three, good stage design should take reasonable measures to avoid 180* traps. It really isn't that hard to have the shooter faced so that they won't accidentally break the 180* from a static start position, or when engaging the first target immediately after the draw. Either angle the shooter a bit, or move the first target a few feet, and it becomes a non-factor unless somebody does something really stupid, and there's no perfect preventative for that. R,

[pjb45]

The load and make ready is tangent to my issue. I agree with you Gman, even Mike commented that was the way he did his load and make ready.

My concern is your shoulders are parallel to the left side of the side berm. The target is perpendicular to the center line of your body. Basically, you are right on the 90 degree mark facing the target. The issue is upon drawing a right handed shooter is breaking the 90 rule as the gun is being presented to the target. It is perpendicular to the target once the gun is about shoulder level but until then the barrel is slightly pointing up range breaking the 90 degrees.

What I have seen so far is that most people still have the muzzle of their gun pointing inward even past the 3 foot mark.

The challenge was for the right handed shooters. The left handed shooters had no problem.

I was told that originally, the start position was facing up range and too many RO/MD/RMs said it was not the right way to start the stage and they compromised on a start facing the target.

It is Stage 14. I am uploading a video of the stage to give you an idea of the start position. I am not directly behind the shooter, I am up range a little bit so the angle from the shooter to the first target is not accurately displayed.

Look under PJB45111. It should be there around 1930MT

Edited December 30, 2010 by pjb45

[Nik Habicht]

If using a box for a start position, I'm really not fond of targets being alongside the box -- I want them at least with the uprange side of the target on a line with the downrange side of the box -- and ideally I'd prefer them at the 80-85 degree mark.....

Yep, it's up to the shooter at all times to know and stay within the 90 (180), but I don't want to make it any tougher on the shooters or ROs than I need to. If a competitor busts the line, I want that to be really evident; worst case scenario is an RO going, "Well, I think he might have broken it a little on the draw, but now that we're talking about it, I'm not certain....."

Nobody needs that -- and it tests absolutely nothing that can't be tested in other ways....

[mhop]

first stage on video

i some of these videos shooters are taking a step and then shooting and there was no call i also took a step and drew and there was no call the targets we not that close to the 90

this is the best video at 4:00 he even comes back for the headshot and there is no problem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIn3uP7cbQY

[Thomas H]

It is Stage 14. I am uploading a video of the stage to give you an idea of the start position. I am not directly behind the shooter, I am up range a little bit so the angle from the shooter to the first target is not accurately displayed.

How was the beginning of stage 14 close to the 180? I remember that stage clearly (and I just looked at the video I had of people, including myself, shooting that stage, just to make sure I wasn't mis-remembering.)

The targets were all downrange of the start position, they were not on the 90 degree line. Most people did indeed take a step on the beep---mostly backward, so that they would clear the barricade and could move downrange as soon as they were finished with this array.

I agree that placing targets on the 180 is a bad idea, with respect to stage design. But I don't see how in any way this stage could be considered a "180 trap" with the target farther downrange than the start position---and you couldn't see the targets from any point past the start position, so it isn't as if anyone could step forward and try for it from farther downrange.

[pjb45]

Did you shoot Open or Limited?

I not sure I accused the stage of being a 180 trap so to speak.

The first point I was trying to make was the RO was warning shooters with "muzzle muzzle" at the Load and Make Ready. Many shooters were squaring their shoulders up to the first target and Loading. This alone should provide some indication of a potential issue.

The point I was ineffective in making was during the draw the muzzle for many shooters potentially breaks the 90 line.

I think the video of Dan gives an idea of how the first target was set in relation to the shooter. It is around 4:01 on the video. What I see is Dan is about a foot and half up range from the wall. The head shot looks pretty close to being directly in front of him. I am not sure if he is taking a step back or not as he shoots the full target partially hidden by the no shoot. His gun swings a pretty nice arc up range to shoot the head shot. I am not saying he or anyone else broke the 90 degree on the head shot! No one on our squad had a problem shooting the stage

I really am communicating poorly. The point is during the draw, which the RO probably not see, the muzzle of the gun is often pointing towards the center line (or past it) of the shooter. On starts where you are close to breaking the 90 degree rule just by loading and making ready, wouldn't this be a potential problem?

I will upload my video of Stage 14 again, I had technical problems the first time. It truly is not as good as the one of Dan.

I have no problem with turn and draw starts. That is not germane to the topic.

Edited December 30, 2010 by pjb45

[CHA-LEE]

There is no such thing as a 180 Trap. The ONLY time you would be Trapped into shooting a target beyond the 180 is if that target was placed up range of the shooting area and the only way you could shoot it while staying inside the shooting area is by breaking the 180. I am yet to see this happen at any match I have attended, big or small.

I hate it when people claim that certain targets within a stage are considered 180 traps. As a shooter it is YOUR responsibility to be aware of and adhere to not breaking the 180 at all times. If your stage plan gets screwed up and you run past a target then point back at it breaking the 180 that is not a Trap. That is a failure of your ability to keep the muzzle pointed down range of the 180 at all times.

If your first target to engage is right on or close to the 180 and you CHOOSE to make ready facing that target and break the 180, how can that be any ones fault other than your own??? Did someone force you to face that target and make ready? No. This is no different than someone running past a target then pointing back at it breaking the 180. Did someone force the shooter to point their gun up range to engage the target? No. Both of these actions are 100% in the shooters control and 100% of their responsibility to keep their muzzle pointed down range at all times.

Edited December 31, 2010 by CHA-LEE

[Kevin Spencer]

There is no such thing as a “180 Trap”.

I would respectfully disagree. When targets are placed at 90 degrees to the shooters start position or when vision barriers are placed restricting shooters options and forcing them to shoot close to the 180, I consider those 180 traps. Yes they can be shot safely but why do they need to be there? When by moving the targets or the shooters start position by a few feet, it will change everything. Doesn't placing targets that close to the 180 cause safety problems for the spectators? Especially at a range like Desert Sportsman? They already have a lot of ricochets and bullets bouncing over your head.

I believe it is very likely that if targets are continued to be placed close to the 180, it is only a matter of time until a spectator is hit by a deflected bullet. There was a stage at 2010 Nationals where a pepper popper was placed close to the 180, resulting in significant splatter being returned towards the spectators. If stages are going to be continued to be designed this way, we might need to find a better way to contain the bullet. Clint Smith @ Thunder Ranch use to use a bullet trap in his Terminator Shoot House, to help contain the bullets.

I thought 2010 Nationals did a better job of eliminating 180 degree targets, than in years past but I believe there is still room for improvement.

[MoNsTeR]

Nobody seems to have addressed the OP's main issue yet. Perhaps it is due to insufficient clarity, so I will attempt to assist with a re-statement in other words.

Visualize a perfectly rectangular berm, just to clear up any question regarding whether the 180 line is or is not perpendicular to the sides of the berm. Next, place a target near one of the side berms, and parallel to it. Now draw a line perpendicular to the target, through its centerline. Now draw another line describing the centerline (lengthwise) of the berm. These two lines intersect at a right angle. Stand on the point where those lines intersect, and face the target.

Now try to draw your gun without breaking the 180. If your holster is positioned Production-style, it's least possible. But for many (most?) shooters with race rigs, it can't be done, not without twisting your body downrange so that you are no longer directly facing the target. If your holster is in the common "crotch rocket" position, and you are standing in the position described, you are breaking the 180 the instant the gun leaves the holster.

The OP's point, as I understand it, is that this unavoidable breaking of the 180 during the draw when placed in this starting position is being systematically overlooked, and that this is something that at the very least should make us uneasy.

[twodownzero]

We often talk about our belt and suspenders approach to safety...

My point exactly. Interesting how Flex can do so much with so few words.

[CHA-LEE]

MoNsTeR> The shooter is given a muzzle pointing grace in the form of a three foot circle outward from their feet during the draw per Rule 10.5.6. During the draw once the muzzle is pointing more than 3 feet out from their feet the muzzle must adhere to the 90 rule 10.5.2.

So the legality of the muzzle pointing up range during the draw depends on how far the muzzle is pointed away from their feet while drawing. If the muzzle is biased slightly up range but still pointing within 3 feet of the shooters feet, then it’s legal. If the muzzle is biased slightly up range but is pointing further away than 3 feet from the shooters feet, then its illegal and should result in a DQ due to breaking the 180 (Rule 10.5.2).

As you stated before, the crotch rocket race holster shooters that have their holsters setup with a heavy gun pointing bias towards their weak side need to shift their body or stance the opposite direction during these "On the 180" type of draws or they will have a lot higher chance of breaking the 180 once the gun is pointing further than 3 feet away from their feet during the draw.

[mhs]

(Interesting side question here: does 10.5.6 exception only apply if the shooter is facing downrange, what if the shooter is facing 90 degrees from the back berm like the OP asked?)

MoNsTeR> The shooter is given a muzzle pointing grace in the form of a three foot circle outward from their feet during the draw per Rule 10.5.6. During the draw once the muzzle is pointing more than 3 feet out from their feet the muzzle must adhere to the 90 rule 10.5.2.

If 10.5.6 doesn't apply here, anyone using a back-raked holster would be very likely to commit a DQ offense either as the trigger becomes accessible or as the the gun comes up towards the target.

[Thomas H]

Nobody seems to have addressed the OP's main issue yet. Perhaps it is due to insufficient clarity, so I will attempt to assist with a re-statement in other words.

Visualize a perfectly rectangular berm, just to clear up any question regarding whether the 180 line is or is not perpendicular to the sides of the berm. Next, place a target near one of the side berms, and parallel to it. Now draw a line perpendicular to the target, through its centerline. Now draw another line describing the centerline (lengthwise) of the berm. These two lines intersect at a right angle. Stand on the point where those lines intersect, and face the target.

Now try to draw your gun without breaking the 180. If your holster is positioned Production-style, it's least possible. But for many (most?) shooters with race rigs, it can't be done, not without twisting your body downrange so that you are no longer directly facing the target. If your holster is in the common "crotch rocket" position, and you are standing in the position described, you are breaking the 180 the instant the gun leaves the holster.

The OP's point, as I understand it, is that this unavoidable breaking of the 180 during the draw when placed in this starting position is being systematically overlooked, and that this is something that at the very least should make us uneasy.

And my response was simple: That wasn't the start position. The targets were downrange of the start position, not in the position described (quite clearly---nice!) above. As such, the OP's question isn't really relevant.

I agree that for a situation matching that given above, a right-handed shooter would have to turn sideways then draw to avoid breaking the 180, simple due to body mechanics.

In the case of Nationals, the targets were downrange such that this didn't occur. That doesn't mean that people couldn't break the 180 anyway---but it wasn't something required by the situation.

As many people have mentioned in the past, camera angles and lens types give a distorted view of actual angles and distances. As such, posting videos are handy so that people recall the situation, but useless as arguments of exact target placement.

[pjb45]

Actually to beat the horse to death over this:

The head shot target was less than one large step downrange of the start position. One large step downrange and the shooter is at the edge of the wall. Past the wall, the shooter is looking up range to see the head shot target if they could see it.

The point being: if a shooter is "close" to be on the 90 degree to the head shot( as demostrated by the ROs giving the muzzle warning during the Load and Make Ready command and the videos) target and during the draw, when the muzzle points past the 3 foot mark and the muzzle of the gun is pointed towards the the center line of the body as with most people does that action come close to violating the rule.

The issue is not if the target is on the 90 degree but close to it and subsequently such a placement IMHO makes breaking the rule during the draw more likely.

The issue is drawing the gun, muzzle past the 3 foot radius, tends to break the rule. Turning sideways does not prevent the shooter from breaking the rule during the draw. The issue is not if the target is downrange.