Forward Falling Popper Substitution

[G-ManBart]

Say your club sets up 99-28, Hillbillton Drill. It has three paper on the left, and six poppers on the right. PP1 and PP4 obscure PP5 and PP6. I've only seen this set up with "normal" rear-falling poppers. That means you can drive PP1 and PP4 down with extra shots if you so choose. What if a club set it up with forward falling poppers? That would remove the option to drive 1 and 4 down, and pose a slightly different challenge. Should there be something in the rules that specifies what type of popper is used for classifiers?

For those that haven't seen it, below is 99-28. For the critics yes, I was terribly slow on the paper, and I probably would shoot the popper order differently if I did it again...not quite 80% as I recall.

Edited December 25, 2010 by G-ManBart

[cyburg]

I would say yes. Because it has to be standardized for all shooters and a club that deviates from that is cheating shooters.

[ima45dv8]

It would definitely change the challenge.

Agreed that some of the older classifiers probably need to be updated to specify the type of popper (forward- vs. rearward-falling poppers). Until then, it's a different mechanism and would skew the scores.

[VegasOPM]

I will not use forward falling poppers on classifiers for these reasons. You can't drive them down and a disproportionate number of follow up shots are taken since you can't see the profile change as quickly in your peripheral vision when it is falling. We all know that we should just "call the shot" and move on, but....

[MarkCO]

Yes, popper type should be specified!

[SteveU]

That would pose a problem for my club. We are notnpermitted rearward falling poppers, so if they were specified, for example, for all classifies, then we would have no classifies with steel.

Tough problem - making classifiers that are the same with forward and rearward falling steel when that is inherently impossible due to the different behavior of the targets

[wide45]

I've shot that one at a club that only uses forward falling poppers. It was sent in as a valid classifier.

[SteveU]

Also, i just checked the rulebook, and 1.2 and 4.3 don't specify which way the poppers fall. Therefore, as long as they are of the appropriate shape and properly calibrated to fall per Appendix C1, I'm not sure how you can justify altering classifiers without making a distinction in the rules. Now we all know we shoot them differently, depending on the way they fall, but the according to the rulebook, they are identical.

Hmm.. The plot thickens

[twodownzero]

This is an interesting point and I agree with the OP that it'd seem that the spirit of classifiers are violated by using a forward falling popper in this instance.

With that said, the rules define poppers, regardless of which way they fall, as the same type of target. Would the definitions need to change to reflect forward falling poppers as a different type of target in order to modify the classifiers, or would a note be sufficient? Would this change every classifier with steel, or just the ones like the one in your video with poppers behind poppers?

I've shot the classifier in your video before, but always with rearward falling poppers.

You have quite a way of coming up with interesting questions.

I don't think there's a good answer to this question right now, in light of the way the rules are written, but I'd support some effort to change that, in order to make it fair for everyone.

[G-ManBart]

Okay, now that a few folks have responded, it seems like we all pretty much agree that it probably wouldn't be a bad thing to somehow clarify the popper type used...whether that's a note, update, whatever, it shouldn't be too hard to resolve.

I have seen a similar classifier entered as a valid score when forward poppers were used...I would have doubled two of the poppers, but couldn't...typical Open shooter looking for an edge I don't find anything in the rules that say it shouldn't have been entered, so no gripe there and I can't recall which club it was (hey, I'm getting older), so it's not directed at anybody in particular. I'm just thinking that with so many clubs switching to forward-falling poppers, it's something to consider. R,

[CHA-LEE]

With as time sensitive as classifiers are taking extra shots to "Drive Down" rearward falling poppers wastes more time than its worth. At least in my opinion. On this classifier there are plenty of other poppers to shoot at while the front outer ones fall out of the way to expose the rear ones. Instead of double shooting the front outer poppers it would probably save more time and allow you to shoot faster and smoother by simply shooting the front four poppers left to right or right to left then swing back for the opposite end popper then the last one. A more economoic shooting order based on the popper numbers in the classifier drawing would be P1, P2, P3, P4, P5, P6 or for the shooters that prefer to shoot from right to left P4, P3, P2, P1, P6, P5. This way you only have to transition left or right three times, verses the five left to right transitions in the video. Using the three transiton method also allows you to shoot more smoothly as well as more aggressively.

Or you could go big time on this classifer and shoot the whole string from left to right or right to left by engaging the back poppers first and last by sneaking the rounds past the front poppers. You can see a portion of the rear poppers exposed behind the front ones when all of the steel is standing. I was able to shoot this classifier this way once and ended up with a rockin time. But its highly risky and easy to pull your shot down into the front popper. You can play it safe and shoot it the way I described before or run it like a rental this second way

[sperman]

Just to play devil's advocate:

How do you guarantee all poppers fall at the same speed? Are you going to write a rule that requires poppers to be at a certain angle at a specified time after they are hit? We all know poppers are supposed to be calibrated with ammo between 115 and 125 pf, but how often does this happen at the local level, where the majority of classifiers are shot?

Poppers are inherently different from club to club. Usually it doesn't matter, because all shooters are running the same course of fire, but classifiers are supposed to be the same across the country. I don't see an easy solution to this problem.

BTW, my club also requires the use of forward falling poppers.

Edited December 25, 2010 by sperman

[Joe4d]

I dont think this is a problem that warrants much attention, Are we gonna start adding wind speed and direction to the classifier description ? THe drive down issue is of limited use, but even if we say it does matter as sperman pointed out, Are we gonna start timing poppers ? Even with all forward or all rearward they fall at different speeds, I would have to see apretty big data base of the same classifier shot on rearward or forward before I would believe there was any difference whatsoever.

[ChuckS]

Merry Christmas!

At first I thought it would matter but now I don't think so. 99-28 was used at Area 5 this year. Max shot it in 4.75 seconds with 1 point down. He obviously called his shots on the poppers. (not to mention a rippin' reload!) If you call your shots on the popper, you work is done! Everything that happens after the hit is irrelevant if it eventually falls.

No need for more popper rules, just need to practice!

Later,

Chuck

[G-ManBart]

With as time sensitive as classifiers are taking extra shots to "Drive Down" rearward falling poppers wastes more time than its worth. At least in my opinion. On this classifier there are plenty of other poppers to shoot at while the front outer ones fall out of the way to expose the rear ones. Instead of double shooting the front outer poppers it would probably save more time and allow you to shoot faster and smoother by simply shooting the front four poppers left to right or right to left then swing back for the opposite end popper then the last one. A more economoic shooting order based on the popper numbers in the classifier drawing would be P1, P2, P3, P4, P5, P6 or for the shooters that prefer to shoot from right to left P4, P3, P2, P1, P6, P5. This way you only have to transition left or right three times, verses the five left to right transitions in the video. Using the three transiton method also allows you to shoot more smoothly as well as more aggressively.

Or you could go big time on this classifer and shoot the whole string from left to right or right to left by engaging the back poppers first and last by sneaking the rounds past the front poppers. You can see a portion of the rear poppers exposed behind the front ones when all of the steel is standing. I was able to shoot this classifier this way once and ended up with a rockin time. But its highly risky and easy to pull your shot down into the front popper. You can play it safe and shoot it the way I described before or run it like a rental this second way

This isn't about technique on the stage, it's about presenting an equal challenge. I can double a popper with an Open gun faster than I can transition from far left to far right (or vice-versa).

[G-ManBart]

I dont think this is a problem that warrants much attention, Are we gonna start adding wind speed and direction to the classifier description ? THe drive down issue is of limited use, but even if we say it does matter as sperman pointed out, Are we gonna start timing poppers ? Even with all forward or all rearward they fall at different speeds, I would have to see apretty big data base of the same classifier shot on rearward or forward before I would believe there was any difference whatsoever.

It's a valid question, and if you don't think it's worthy of attention, feel free to ignore it It seems at least some folks think it's worth looking at. Bringing up something like wind speed and direction is ridiculous....nobody is suggesting going to some crazy extreme like that.

Classifiers are intended to be set up very precisely....as precisely as we can without ridiculous measures, like worrying about wind speed, or timing the fall of the popper. We're trying to make the challenge as equal as possible, without creating an undue burden. Using different popper styles changes that challenge. It doesn't matter that sometimes, or even most of the time, it makes no difference...that fact that it could, is what matters.

Heck, we can't put a target a foot left, right, high or low from what the diagram shows can we? No. Would it normally make any difference? No. Different popper styles probably offer as much, or more, of opportunity to change the challenge as a target moved a foot...so maybe the rule should specify what popper type is used, and remove all doubt.

[G-ManBart]

Merry Christmas!

At first I thought it would matter but now I don't think so. 99-28 was used at Area 5 this year. Max shot it in 4.75 seconds with 1 point down. He obviously called his shots on the poppers. (not to mention a rippin' reload!) If you call your shots on the popper, you work is done! Everything that happens after the hit is irrelevant if it eventually falls.

No need for more popper rules, just need to practice!

Later,

Chuck

That's not true if you're waiting on the popper to fall so you can see/hit the one behind it. My video was from the A5 match....they were rear-falling poppers.

Edited December 25, 2010 by G-ManBart

[sperman]

We have authorized manufacturers for the paper targets. If you feel like this is a problem that has to be addressed, the only solution I see is to have authorized manufacturers of poppers, and give them specific criteria the popper must meet to be an "official USPSA popper."

Telling clubs they have to obsolete thousands of dollars worth of steel is probably going to be met with some resistance.

[twodownzero]

We have authorized manufacturers for the paper targets. If you feel like this is a problem that has to be addressed, the only solution I see is to have authorized manufacturers of poppers, and give them specific criteria the popper must meet to be an "official USPSA popper."

Telling clubs they have to obsolete thousands of dollars worth of steel is probably going to be met with some resistance.

I don't think that's true. I've already suggested one of the ways to modify this--recognize a rearward falling popper as a different type of target than a forward falling one.

All poppers must be calibrated properly, regardless of who made them, and so making them all the same manufacturer isn't enough.

Edited December 25, 2010 by twodownzero

[ChuckS]

That's not true if you're waiting on the popper to fall so you can see/hit the one behind it. My video was from the A5 match....they were rear-falling poppers.

You got a point there! Merry Christmas...

[spanky]

Other than range requirements, I can't see any reason why a club would use forward falling poppers on classifiers like this. All it does is potentially screw with the shooters' times.

Edited December 25, 2010 by spanky

[Joe4d]

My point in bringing up wind speed and direction, was to point out that different things will make different poppers fall at different speeds, there is probably just as much variation between two rear falling poppers set up on different days, in different places as there would be between a front and rear falling popper, This is simply a single variable among many and probably not the most significant. People are suggesting rule changes, if everyone that thought any given issue was insignificant ignored the issue, we would have a rule book full of rules addressing issues found significant by a very few people.

[bbbean]

Telling clubs they have to obsolete thousands of dollars worth of steel is probably going to be met with some resistance.

It wouldn't make the equipment obsolete, it would just limit what you could use for classifiers.

[Merlin Orr]

As to clubs losing a big investment on their rearward falling steel....

The large majority of rear falling poppers can be modified to fall forward pretty easily. And... I would think that a forward falling popper would be much more consistent (and therefore fair to all) than a rear falling popper due to the way most forward falling poppers just need to be moved rearward a very small amount to release and let gravity do its job. Whether more fair of not they are surely safer......

One thing about gravity is that it works 24 hours a day and equally to every object...

[twodownzero]

As to clubs losing a big investment on their rearward falling steel....

The large majority of rear falling poppers can be modified to fall forward pretty easily. And... I would think that a forward falling popper would be much more consistent (and therefore fair to all) than a rear falling popper due to the way most forward falling poppers just need to be moved rearward a very small amount to release and let gravity do its job. Whether more fair of not they are surely safer......

One thing about gravity is that it works 24 hours a day and equally to every object...

Forward falling poppers are always slower. It's just the nature of the beast with them.