2011 USPSA MultiGun Nationals

[Outsydlooknin75]

Jesse as far as shooting your shotgun dry according to 10.4.6 ( shot while moving and not engaging targets ) it is a match DQ.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

[gose]

I know I'd be a lot more likely to work the match if they let me shoot it ahead of time. From what I've been told, some from the higher ups, and some from Nationals staff. They used to let the RO's shoot the match, including the three gun. But they had them shoot it in one day. Too many of them didn't think it was worth the hassle to haul all their stuff down, shoot one day, then either leave it all in the hotel room or schlep it back and forth. And on top of that, with 12 stages in one day, most shot poorly anyway. Granted, this is coming from current match staff. Doesn't really answer whether allowing RO's a day or two to shoot now would gain us new blood to staff the match. It would increase the cost of the match. This is definitely not a profit making adventure for USPSA. Bringing everyone in a couple days earlier to set up and shoot the match is going to increase cost. I'd easily pay more for this to occur. Certainly worth some extra coin to help out the RO's, but how many feel the same way?

Granted, most IMGA matches have less than 12 stages, but shooting 10 BRM3G stages in a day cant be a walk in the park either...

Dont most matches let ROs shoot the pre-match for free + hotel costs during the match? Can that really be that much more expensive than paying for hotels and flights? I would have guessed that having people shoot the match for free would actually be cheaper?

Edited October 24, 2011 by gose

[grywlfbg]

I know I'd be a lot more likely to work the match if they let me shoot it ahead of time. From what I've been told, some from the higher ups, and some from Nationals staff. They used to let the RO's shoot the match, including the three gun. But they had them shoot it in one day. Too many of them didn't think it was worth the hassle to haul all their stuff down, shoot one day, then either leave it all in the hotel room or schlep it back and forth. And on top of that, with 12 stages in one day, most shot poorly anyway. Granted, this is coming from current match staff. Doesn't really answer whether allowing RO's a day or two to shoot now would gain us new blood to staff the match. It would increase the cost of the match. This is definitely not a profit making adventure for USPSA. Bringing everyone in a couple days earlier to set up and shoot the match is going to increase cost. I'd easily pay more for this to occur. Certainly worth some extra coin to help out the RO's, but how many feel the same way?

I agree w/ gose. Outlaw matches do this all the time. Letting RO's shoot the match for free has got to be cheaper than paying all their expenses (again, this is how EVERY other 3-gun match in the nation works so it's not like it's a new concept). It also helps work out the bugs on stages before the main competition starts.

I loved having 12 stages. If a few of them were modified to make them a bit shorter (ie on Stage 9, let people go prone from the second shooting position) I think it would be fine. My Squad (8) had very few reshoots and we stayed pretty close to on schedule the whole match.

In all it was a very technical match and I appreciated the stage design. Prize table was much improved from 2009 as well (missed the match last year). Thanks to everyone for putting on a great match.

[gose]

Prize table was much improved from 2009 as well (missed the match last year). Thanks to everyone for putting on a great match.

The only problem I had with the prize table was that a lot of people didnt get to see how much stuff the generous sponsors supplied! Why is the prize table hidden in a side room that no one has access to? Flaunt it, have people drool over the goodies, do something to show it off and get the sponsor names out there.

If sponsors notice that they get return on their "investment", both in goodwill and/or higher sales they'll be much more receptive to doing it again next year.

[trickpony]

In regards to working as an RO and trying to shoot the entire match in a day - I worked Benning last year and had to shoot a stage in the dark so we could finish. Worked Blue Ridge this year and had to make up stages we couldn't finish during the regular match. I think letting the staff shoot at no cost, buying their lunches and hotel room is a great way for some people to attend and feel like they're giving back to the sport. Being an RO at most any 3-Gun match is a tough job, if you haven't done it give it a try.

[smokshwn]

I heard there was one top 10-20 guy that was DQ's for burning shotgun rounds without actually aiming the gun at a target or having it off the shoulder. I also "heard" that the Tactical match winner was DQ'd for the same thing then reinstated after further review. I also heard about a DQ for taking off a CR Speed/Safariland belt rig and setting it in the back of the truck/car with the pistol still sitting in the holster. Something I saw a lot of. These are ramge rumors do take them for what there worth.

I was on the stage when Daniel (if you're going to say Tactical Match Winner you might as well use his name because we can all figure it out) burned the SG round. He had the gun off the shoulder and gun sideways when he fired. RO stopped him. Daniel said to the CRO, and he told me a few minutes later, that he knew he had a round left, saw there was a partial clay left and burned the round at it to make sure. RO didn't know what he was seeing and stopped him. Upon later review, it really wasn't a DQ (he was never DQ'd, just stopped). The first shooter you're talking about I just missed doing it, but I talked to several of the guys on his squad about it right after it happened. He just finished a load and fired the round. Might have been burning the last round of shot to get to the slug, but I doubt it. He stopped himself, not the RO. If it was intentional I'm pretty sure he'd have kept going.

Yes the first shooter you mention, by his own admission, was fumbling the shotgun getting into position and triggered the round. He then stopped himself. Yes, it was in a safe direction and greater than 3yds away from him but he did the right thing, he knew it fell under unsafe gun handling and treated it accordingly.

As for Daniel's, whether discharging in that manner is considered safe or not by the RO can be debated. Admittedly as an Open shooter I don't always see the loading pattern of the Tactical guys, but how did he have an extra round on that stage without going over the Tactical limit of 9 in the gun at any one time?

Edited October 24, 2011 by smokshwn

[RaymondMillbrae]

OK, shooters...here are my observations.

1) USPSA MULTIGUN Rules for clays and steel are as follows. You need to engage/break them yourself. Nothing will be "given" to you. For example, if you hit a popper which activates flying clays...if the clay breaks on the way up, you do not "just shoot at the largest piece". It is called an equiment failure, and it is a reshoot. Another example would be the Texas Star. Lets say you shot the 12:00 O'Clock plate, and one or more OTHER plates fall off - this is also an equipment failure, and will be called a reshoot. Once again, nothing is "given" to the shooter. C'mon shooters...I am sure y'all have been around the block enough. You know there are folks who will engage the Texas Star, use a buckshot round as their first shotshell, and aim it right in the middle of the plate and the frame. (Which essentially has enough "umphh" to knock down the first plate, and also rattle the frame enough to possibly knock loose one [or more] other plates). No, no, no. You earn what you shoot. Is it a little more time-consuming? Yes...but it also gives you what you earned. (Now...if there are contstant equipment failures, that is a totally different story, and must be address as they arrise).

2) It would be great if the RO's could shoot the match before the competitors. (I would love the honor of doing so). But as it was, it took almost 3/4 of a day to even get the stages up to par. Our first day here consisted of the CRO's and RO's getting there first thing in the morning, and going over the stages with a fine tooth and comb. Everything had to be meticulous, and all the "stage flaws" needed to be found and corrected. I know in our stage alone a few things were caught that needed to be changed. (Targets moved around/angled a bit, flaws fount in equipment, removing possible 180-traps if possible, fault lines adjusted for shoot-throughs, etc...). Nothing major, but a time consuming project. At this level of a match, we have 200 competitors who will look at every crack and crevice, and try to find "loopholes" to exploit. And as RO's, it was our job to make sure everything was primarily safe...and then gamer-proof. (Not that there is anything wrong with the latter, but you know what I am talking about). On top of that, not all the RO's are the same age or build. So some stages took a lot longer to get ready than others. And even though it didn't take some too long...it took other much longer. And if the RO's were to have shot the stage before (in the Vegas heat), it may quite easily have taken more than a day to do so. (Once again it is an age/health/experience factor). Would I have loved to shoot it? Yes!! Will it be possible for RO's to shoot it in the future? Don't know. This will be something the "Nats Gods" will have to figure-out and crunch. Bottom line, I am here to RO, and that was where my mind was. I was here for "Y'ALL," and also for my own personal learning experience.

3) In regards to AD's - Rule 10.4.6 and 8.5.1/8.5.1.1. are a little in the grey area. If a shooter engaged all the targets, then turns his head and body away from the targets to move to the next shooting location, AND THEN the shot fires while the firearm is not shouldered (the hand, wrist and ulna were rocked back fully unsupported)...what do you call that? One-handed shotgun shooting...or clearing? And if the targets had already been engaged...what targets were being engaged? Did the shooter take "one full step"? The RO does not remember. But what the RO did see was the former. Hmmmmmm. Ultimately the stage CRO made the final call, and that was that. RO's are not specifically here to DQ shooters. We are here to make sure everything is safe, and everyone gets a fair shot. Whatever tha ultimate call was, I am sure it was made for a reason. (By the way, it is perfectly fine for a shooter to fire his rifle or shotgun in a safe direction to ensure it is empty before barreling it. Many shooters did this properly)!!

4) This match is pricey. From my understanding (even though the match fees are over $200.00 per shooter), we made almost no profit from it. As a matter of fact, I believe I heard one of the more "senior RO's" tell me we were actually at a loss. This is a function set-up by the USPSA for shooters...and the shooters only. It is for the love of the sport. I am not throwing-out numbers here (cuz that is not my business)...but I kinda sat down and worked it out on my own, and it was pretty darned pricey!! AS AN EXAMPLE - I figure 60 match staff will arrive and stay from four to 9 days (flights, rooms, transportation, breakfast vouchers, dinner per-diem, shirts/polos to wear), rental equipment (ATV's/transportation vehicles/gas, tents, paying the range the cost of closing down a few days for us), targets/clays/wood/props, prize tables, etc... And like I said...quite pricey! And if the RO's were to arrive two days earlier to proof AND shoot the stages (assuming we could finish shooting in one day), it would add close to $7.000 to the cost. OK...nuff said about that.

OK...these were just my thoughts. As an RO, my job was SAFETY. Safety is the number 1 priority. Secondly is a level playing field. I wanted to make sure everyone had a good time, and knew (without a shadow of a doubt) that the playing field was level...and they earned what they shot.

Bottom line, I had a great time. And even though I did not shoot the match, the experience of ROing, learning, and meeting all the shooters (in a shooting environment) was awesome. Would I do it again? Darned tooting!!!

Maybe see y'all at the next one.

In Christ: Raymond

Edited October 24, 2011 by RaymondMillbrae

[gose]

2) It would be great if the RO's could shoot the match before the competitors. (I would love the honor of doing so). But as it was, it took almost 3/4 of a day to even get the stages up to par.

If all other 3-gun matches can do it, why not the USPSA Nationals?

4) This match is pricey. From my understanding (even though the match fees are over $200.00 per shooter), we made almost no profit from it. As a matter of fact, I believe I heard one of the more "senior RO's" tell me we were actually at a loss. This is a function set-up by the USPSA for shooters...and the shooters only. It is for the love of the sport. I am not throwing-out numbers here (cuz that is not my business)...but I kinda sat down and worked it out on my own, and it was pretty darned pricey!! AS AN EXAMPLE - I figure 60 match staff will arrive and stay from four to 9 days (flights, rooms, transportation, breakfast vouchers, dinner per-diem, shirts/polos to wear), rental equipment (ATV's/transportation vehicles/gas, tents, paying the range the cost of closing down a few days for us), targets/clays/wood/props, prize tables, etc... And like I said...quite pricey! And if the RO's were to arrive two days earlier to proof AND shoot the stages (assuming we could finish shooting in one day), it would add close to $7.000 to the cost. OK...nuff said about that.

Well, most matches pay for hotel room and food during the match, thats it... transportation to/from/in the area has to be arranged by the RO him/herself.

The "lost" match fee from the RO shooting the pre-match isnt really a $250 cost, its the cost of material to run him through + prize table, which I would think in a lot of cases would be less than the price of a plane ticket...

As for Daniel's, whether discharging in that manner is considered safe or not by the RO can be debated. Admittedly as an Open shooter I don't always see the loading pattern of the Tactical guys, but how did he have an extra round on that stage without going over the Tactical limit of 9 in the gun at any one time?

The arrays were 3, 5 and 4. You could shoot the first two positions and load four to get an extra round, or shoot the first position and load three, shoot the second position and load one more.

I think that most people shot the first position, loaded three and then didnt add any more unless they missed at the star...

Edited October 24, 2011 by gose

[RaymondMillbrae]

Gose,

the cost for the RO's to shoot would also include their transportation back and forth to the range, extra room days, an extra polo (if they did not already have one), and an extra breakfast and dinner per-diem...for approximately 45 RO's.

As for the specific stage you are mentioning...you are correct. Most just needed to reload 3 shotshell rounds, if they didn't miss.

In Christ: Raymond

UPDATE: Woops...I made an error. I initially figured TWO extra days for the RO's to shoot the match. It would only be ONE EXTRA DAY, at a cost of approximately $4,000 extra dallah.

Edited October 24, 2011 by RaymondMillbrae

[MarkCO]

1) USPSA MULTIGUN Rules for clays and steel are as follows. You need to engage/break them yourself. Nothing will be "given" to you.

3) In regards to AD's - Rule 10.4.6 and 8.5.1/8.5.1.1. are a little in the grey area.

Would I do it again? Darned tooting!!!

Maybe see y'all at the next one.

Raymond, the problem with 1) above is inconsistency and change over the several days. Two shooters on my squad had an "extra" plate drop off when firing one round, they were not stopped, and it WAS obvious.

The problem with 2) is, there is NO gray area. The rules, as written are defined. The variety of rules at matches conflicts with the programming of some shooters. I am not defending Daniel, nor the RO who Stopped him. But, the problem is more than just a rule interpretation. I specifically asked ROs on 3 stages if a round could be "burned" and was told yes. In fact I burned on on that same stage.

Above we have a shooter admitting that he broke the safety rules by taking off his belt with a pistol in the holster and was not DQ'd, while another was sent home for the same thing. Many of us are used to doing this, and IMHO, it is the same as walking around with a gun in a pistol rug, and with all due repsect, I think the official ruling from NORI should be revisted.

By a strict reading of the rules, half of the stages were not legal at all. No knock on the stages designs, I thought they were good, more a knock on the rulebook that prohibits some of the elements of most of the stages. Some RO's asked for chamber flags, some told us to put them away. The officiating between stages was inconsistent in several regards. Many 3G matches are "My match, my Rules", sometimes this felt like "My stage, my rules", THAT is frustrating, and hopefully it is now being addressed. I spoke with 3 ADs at the match, plus Voight and gave my views on various topics. Now we have to trust that what they are working on will bring about better rules suited to MG. When you have the biggest rulebook, you have the most work to do in maintaining the integrity of the rules and of the sport.

THANKS for your work, and please don't take this as disparaging of the ROs. I beleive most did the best with what they had. The leadership has seen the issues and has stated they are addressing them. No need to defend what is being fixed IMHO. We are all in the same boat, so we should all want it to float, not sink. I've been a propronent of USPSA MG, but there is stil much work to be done. Vote in the election and strike up dialog with your AD to help them understand what 3Gunners want.

IF we could shoot and work as ROs, I would have, and it CAN be done.

[aheadofthecurve]

I heard there was one top 10-20 guy that was DQ's for burning shotgun rounds without actually aiming the gun at a target or having it off the shoulder. I also "heard" that the Tactical match winner was DQ'd for the same thing then reinstated after further review. I also heard about a DQ for taking off a CR Speed/Safariland belt rig and setting it in the back of the truck/car with the pistol still sitting in the holster. Something I saw a lot of. These are ramge rumors do take them for what there worth.

I was on the stage when Daniel (if you're going to say Tactical Match Winner you might as well use his name because we can all figure it out) burned the SG round. He had the gun off the shoulder and gun sideways when he fired. RO stopped him. Daniel said to the CRO, and he told me a few minutes later, that he knew he had a round left, saw there was a partial clay left and burned the round at it to make sure. RO didn't know what he was seeing and stopped him. Upon later review, it really wasn't a DQ (he was never DQ'd, just stopped). The first shooter you're talking about I just missed doing it, but I talked to several of the guys on his squad about it right after it happened. He just finished a load and fired the round. Might have been burning the last round of shot to get to the slug, but I doubt it. He stopped himself, not the RO. If it was intentional I'm pretty sure he'd have kept going.

Yes the first shooter you mention, by his own admission, was fumbling the shotgun getting into position and triggered the round. He then stopped himself. Yes, it was in a safe direction and greater than 3yds away from him but he did the right thing, he knew it fell under unsafe gun handling and treated it accordingly.

As for Daniel's, whether discharging in that manner is considered safe or not by the RO can be debated. Admittedly as an Open shooter I don't always see the loading pattern of the Tactical guys, but how did he have an extra round on that stage without going over the Tactical limit of 9 in the gun at any one time?

You mention that it was in a safe direction and more than 3 yards away. Why does that matter at all if its an AD/NG? Does that then make it in the discretion of the RO as to whether it was "unsafe" or not? I've been confused by this rule. It seems too arbitrary, because any time someone discharges a round by accident in a safe direction it could be deemed "unsafe" or not.

[gose]

Gose,

the cost for the RO's to shoot would also include their transportation back and forth to the range, extra room days, an extra polo (if they did not already have one), and an extra breakfast and dinner per-diem...for approximately 45 RO's.

As for the specific stage you are mentioning...you are correct. Most just needed to reload 3 shotshell rounds, if they didn't miss.

In Christ: Raymond

UPDATE: Woops...I made an error. I initially figured TWO extra days for the RO's to shoot the match. It would only be ONE EXTRA DAY, at a cost of approximately $4,000 extra dallah.

No, you didnt read what I wrote... ;P

Most other matches will pay for your hotel and food during the match and let you shoot the match for free. Thats it, you get nothing more, period.

And that's what I'm proposing that USPSA do as well,ie, instead of getting paid flights and transportation, you get to shoot the match.

[Chills1994]

Pat Kelly back on page 7 wrote:

Thank you to my good friend Kurt Miller for grabbing the National Title in Limited using IRONS!!!

Just so I understand this correctly, there were one power red dot equipped rifle platforms there in LIMITED, that Kurt beat with just iron sights???

Edited October 25, 2011 by Chills1994

[Bryan 45]

Pat Kelly back on page 7 wrote:

Thank you to my good friend Kurt Miller for grabbing the National Title in Limited using IRONS!!!

Just so I understand this correctly, there were one power red dot equipped rifle platforms there in LIMITED, that Kurt beat with just iron sights???

Yes, and Kurt does it with the same regularity of Metamucil.

[MustangGreg66]

Wow, you guys have certainly covered a lot of things here since I saw this thread before the match.

I shot it and did quite well for what I was expecting. I was hoping to finish in the top 1/3 and finished in the top 1/4 at 22nd I loved the match. To be able to go and shoot the Multi-Gun Nationals and meet and see all the top shooters that I've been reading and hearing about for years was really cool. Then there was the technical nature of the stages themselves and being able to shoot to 370yds on Larue targets. There wasn't anything overly difficult for me, and I just shot my game, which right now is accuracy over speed.

If I could criticize the match on one thing it would be the match squad schedule. I think there were 15 squads and 12 stages which meant you had 2 off periods. I think the stage that took the longest and had the major backups (for us anyway) was 9, the long range stage. If the schedule had worked so that everyone except the 1st squad had their off-period before the long range stage, then I think there would have sort of been a buffer built in, and just make sure the squads start the stage on time... sounds like it'd work in my head... not sure about real application...maybe not... but anyway, it seemed like there was always a backup on that squad. Maybe have the break or lunch after so that if they run late they eat into that and don't start the next stage late...

As for bagging/unbagging. Maybe I was the exception. I ALWAYS bagged and unbagged either at the line, at the staging table or at the safe area and always re-bagged in the safe area no matter where I was or which firearm I was using. This was the biggest match I've been to for Multi-Gun so maybe bad habbits just aren't ingrained in my yet but I always feel uneasey whenever someone is bagging/unbagging anywhere other than those areas.

I also felt like it was a case of "My stage, my rules". Some ROs seemed laxed about getting started, staging, unbagging, preloading and others were right over your shoulder, breathing down your neck... Mostly a case of diffrent personalities I think. All of the staff were friendly once the firearm handling was done.

If ROs had been able to pre-shoot the match I would have volunteered for sure and will next year if it's worked out(so long as it stays this time of year, the weather was great). I will say that there's no way 12 stages can be shot in one day. At least not stages like these. Every stage required a diffrent belt setup and change to equipement, mags or caddies loaded, prewalk of the stage a few times to get a plan down and then once more for good measure. I'd say 12 stages in 2 days would be easily done for a few squads of ROs. If the stages can be setup early, as an RO, I wouldn't mind paying for my hotel/food/whatever on the pre-shoot days and leave it optional for the ROs to shoot it too since it would be what a Wednesday/Thursday for them to shoot it. Then have everything paid for during the match days that one would RO. That way stages/props and everything can be thoroughly gone through and tested before the masses get to the range. This would have actually sped up the match this year and had fewer re-shoots since an entire squad had to reshoot stage 11 because a double clay flipper was changed to a single since it was malfunctioning so much.

As for the DQs. I was shocked there were so many... although I was almost DQed myself. Thankfully due to a gap in the rule book, there was no rule to DQ me under so I was allowed to keep competing. From what I heard from the ROs and the DQs I saw myself it seemed to be a brain malfunction or overrunning the dump barrels. OH! There were not enough trash cans around since, as I understand it, most had been drafted into service as dump barrels. Going at just under warp speed, I didn't have any trouble with the dump barrels though, I thought most of the long gun barrels were angled too much into the side berm and not downrange enough. I had always thought that carpet in the barrels would be a nice touch, but seeing it in action and how much trouble it caused, I don't think it should ever be used. It's just too easy to snag something in it. Multi-Gun firearms are meant to be used and abused right? If you're worried about a scratch from a plastic dump barrel then you're in the wrong sport.

Finally, AWESOME match Jesse. I would have liked to have met you at the match, but I think we were several squads appart. From looking at the stats you shot a gread match dude.

[RaymondMillbrae]

1) USPSA MULTIGUN Rules for clays and steel are as follows. You need to engage/break them yourself. Nothing will be "given" to you.

3) In regards to AD's - Rule 10.4.6 and 8.5.1/8.5.1.1. are a little in the grey area.

Would I do it again? Darned tooting!!!

Maybe see y'all at the next one.

Raymond, the problem with 1) above is inconsistency and change over the several days. Two shooters on my squad had an "extra" plate drop off when firing one round, they were not stopped, and it WAS obvious.

The problem with 2) is, there is NO gray area. The rules, as written are defined. The variety of rules at matches conflicts with the programming of some shooters. I am not defending Daniel, nor the RO who Stopped him. But, the problem is more than just a rule interpretation. I specifically asked ROs on 3 stages if a round could be "burned" and was told yes. In fact I burned on on that same stage.

Above we have a shooter admitting that he broke the safety rules by taking off his belt with a pistol in the holster and was not DQ'd, while another was sent home for the same thing. Many of us are used to doing this, and IMHO, it is the same as walking around with a gun in a pistol rug, and with all due repsect, I think the official ruling from NORI should be revisted.

By a strict reading of the rules, half of the stages were not legal at all. No knock on the stages designs, I thought they were good, more a knock on the rulebook that prohibits some of the elements of most of the stages. Some RO's asked for chamber flags, some told us to put them away. The officiating between stages was inconsistent in several regards. Many 3G matches are "My match, my Rules", sometimes this felt like "My stage, my rules", THAT is frustrating, and hopefully it is now being addressed. I spoke with 3 ADs at the match, plus Voight and gave my views on various topics. Now we have to trust that what they are working on will bring about better rules suited to MG. When you have the biggest rulebook, you have the most work to do in maintaining the integrity of the rules and of the sport.

THANKS for your work, and please don't take this as disparaging of the ROs. I beleive most did the best with what they had. The leadership has seen the issues and has stated they are addressing them. No need to defend what is being fixed IMHO. We are all in the same boat, so we should all want it to float, not sink. I've been a propronent of USPSA MG, but there is stil much work to be done. Vote in the election and strike up dialog with your AD to help them understand what 3Gunners want.

IF we could shoot and work as ROs, I would have, and it CAN be done.

Mark, I wholeheartedly agree with your points above.

The one catch is our humanness. The RO's are human, and sometimes we make mistakes as well...no matter how clear the rules are.

This is one of the reasons I HIGHLY RECOMMEND shooters take (at least) the level 1 NROI course. There are times when you "should" question a call. And as such, you will find that sometimes the shooter wins.

One good example is the fact that a shooter can appoint a designated representative to follow the scoring RO during his scoring of the paper targets. In USPSA MG matches, the RO's are allowed to score the uprange targets after they have been shot and the shooter is continuing downrange. Well, once the target has been scored and taped, the score sticks. But the shooters designated representative may catch something (he believes it is an "A" shot, and not a "C" shot), and may hold the target for reevaluation before being scored/taped. Many folks did not know this, and I only saw TWO shooters take advantage of this.

Once again, it is all about the shooter knowing they have this tool at their disposal. And I have to stick to my guns and say that there "are" grey areas. Some things are very obvious, but are not covered under the rules handbooks "word for word". Like John Amadon once told me in a personal email, "It is the spirit of the rule, and not necessarily the word verbatim". If I clearly see an unsafe act...do I just turn a blind eye and ignore it because I cannot specifically find it covered in the rulebook?

One of the things about multigun is the amount of handbooks that need to be covered in order to rule everything effectively. Some topics are covered in the USPSA Shotgun rulebook...others in the USPSA Precision Rifle Handbook...others in the USPSA Rifle Handbook...others in the USPSA Tournament Handbook...and yet others in the USPSA Pistol Handbook. *sigh*

While at the USPSA MG Nats, I took advantage of attending the newest NROI MG Course. And in taking the final exam, there were five rulebooks we needed to cross reference rulings with. (See above). It makes you scratch your head and tell yourself to take deep calming breaths.

I had a pardner shooting a stage where he ended-up having TWO firearms in his hand. It was called a "DQ" by the RO. But my buddy (being an NROI MG certified RO) went out of his way to look-up the rule in all the four rulebooks...and ultimately won his case. He was NOT DQ'd, and got the reshoot. (He drew his pistol while he still had a shotgun in his other hand and was on his way to a barrel to ground it. In the Multi-Gun Adendum (5.1.9), it says that a competitor "...must never be required or allowed to use more than one firearm at a time". BUT it doesn't state a disiplinary action for doing so. Handgun, Rifle and Shotgun rule books each DQ for using two handguns, two rifles, or two shotguns, but the MG addendum doesn't DQ for mixed firearms).

Along the same lines, why did one shooter get DQ'd for removing his belt and holster while the handgun was still in the holster, and the other shooter did not? I am not sure why one shooter was NOT DQ'd, as I was not there to see that situation. But the other shooter WAS in my stage when it happened, the RM was called, and the call stuck.

I have also seen some bad calls in the past, and just cringe because of it. But if I am not ROing the stage, I have learned to keep my mouth shut. Otherwise it is easy to get sucked into the role of "RO Lawyer" and want to help everyone. (Which I want to do, but usually refrain from).

Bottom line...do the shooters know their "rights"? Some RO's may make a bad call (which happens, and will continue to happen), but it is the shooters resposibility to be well armed in the knowledge of the rules.

As for the use of chamber flags, that was specifically covered in the CRO/RO briefing.. A flag must have been in place if the firearm were not staged, on the preload table, or on a rack...PERIOD. If the RO's messed-up the chamber flag usage...well...they messed-up the chamber flag usage. (Can't help you on that one. But this was covered in my above interpretation of "human flaws"). But I know that no one was DQ'd because of this.

And lastly - as for the RO not stopping the stage for more than one plate falling from only one shot. Hmmmm...well...that was the RO's call. It "should" have been called an equipment failure, and been a reshoot. But like the ole saying goes, "If the RO did not personally see it, he cannot enforce the ruling". Now if the RO did see it...well...umm...I don't know what to say. I guess the shooter got something he did not earn. Sorry.

OK...enough typing. Time for dinner now.

In Christ: Raymond

Edited October 25, 2011 by RaymondMillbrae

[Religious Shooter]

OK, shooters...here are my observations.

1) USPSA MULTIGUN Rules for clays and steel are as follows. You need to engage/break them yourself. Nothing will be "given" to you. For example, if you hit a popper which activates flying clays...if the clay breaks on the way up, you do not "just shoot at the largest piece". It is called an equiment failure, and it is a reshoot. Another example would be the Texas Star. Lets say you shot the 12:00 O'Clock plate, and one or more OTHER plates fall off - this is also an equipment failure, and will be called a reshoot. Once again, nothing is "given" to the shooter. C'mon shooters...I am sure y'all have been around the block enough. You know there are folks who will engage the Texas Star, use a buckshot round as their first shotshell, and aim it right in the middle of the plate and the frame. (Which essentially has enough "umphh" to knock down the first plate, and also rattle the frame enough to possibly knock loose one [or more] other plates). No, no, no. You earn what you shoot. Is it a little more time-consuming? Yes...but it also gives you what you earned. (Now...if there are contstant equipment failures, that is a totally different story, and must be address as they arrise).

...

I think this illustrates why some parts of USPSA MG rules suck. You haven't been "around the block" enough to understand why the other matches allow taking a shot at a fallen clay, broken thrown bird, etc.

Hopefully the BOD members who have been around and have shoot multiple big matches understand and can persuade the other BOD members.

[Chills1994]

Pat Kelly back on page 7 wrote:

Thank you to my good friend Kurt Miller for grabbing the National Title in Limited using IRONS!!!

Just so I understand this correctly, there were one power red dot equipped rifle platforms there in LIMITED, that Kurt beat with just iron sights???

Yes, and Kurt does it with the same regularity of Metamucil.

Okay, thanks!

I just wanted to make sure I had the equipment distinctions correct...all the one power to four or six powered optic guys were in Tac Optics, then, right?

Kurt wasn't competing against any of those guys, right?

Just the red dots and other iron sighted shooters.

[jriera]

While I did not shoot this year (I was just an observer for a couple of hours on Friday and Saturday) I will like to give a big THANK YOU to the RO's, not easy to keep track of so many guns going around the stage.

I will like to give special THANKS to Peter Rensing and the construction crew, as you may (or may not) know, Multigun Nationals does not have a 'dedicated' construction crew from USPSA as they have for the handgun nationals and everything has to be done in a volunteer basis from the local club members, without them will be no match.

[DyNo!]

Pat Kelly back on page 7 wrote:

Thank you to my good friend Kurt Miller for grabbing the National Title in Limited using IRONS!!!

Just so I understand this correctly, there were one power red dot equipped rifle platforms there in LIMITED, that Kurt beat with just iron sights???

Yes, and Kurt does it with the same regularity of Metamucil.

What a horrible example.

I'm pretty sure Kurt Miller uses 1x glasses with a drop chart etched in right?

[RaymondMillbrae]

I think this illustrates why some parts of USPSA MG rules suck. You haven't been "around the block" enough to understand why the other matches allow taking a shot at a fallen clay, broken thrown bird, etc.

Hopefully the BOD members who have been around and have shoot multiple big matches understand and can persuade the other BOD members.

Why?

Saves resetting time?

In Christ: Raymond

Edited October 25, 2011 by RaymondMillbrae

[outerlimits]

ray-first off, thanx for all the work you put in this weekend. and tell the doubters to eat sh&*. around the block? listen, i've been around more blocks than most. them are the rules-range equipment failure, period. either mod the rules or make better props. but either way, we ain't scoring for what coulda...

[pjb45]

To some people more is better, when actually better is better. HUH? The number of stages does not make a great match. Great stages make a great match.

There is a flawed reasoning that says, shooters will be cheated if they don't get to shoot x-number of stages. I suggest that is crap. I have been to multiple Nationals with high number of stages where the shooters ask "why so many stupid little stages?" I have been to matches with less stages but real quality shooting where everyone says "What a great match!"

Quality stages make the match. Stages that do not require 10billion reshoots are good stages. You do not need all the props in the world to have a straight up shooting contest! Single Stack Championships were know for having stages that test your shooting without having too many props. That said, I am a big fan of Area 2, but they test their stages repeatedly, hence, that is the best match in the country.

I have only worked a couple of matches as an RO, being a senior shooter in decent shape, If I shoot the match in a day and half, then worked it for two-two/half days, I am totally trashed. I have been at Nationals Handgun where the ROs are dragging ass at the end of the day, making calls that require a second look.

So for me, to be an RO, I would love to the pre-shoot the match, this would eliminate some stupid stuff, but I also know I would be mighty tired.

I have heard it said many times, the USPSA is still in the learning stage of 3 Gun Competition. Again, I would suggest that is wrong. USPSA should be doing a much better job, faster at making USPSA 3 Gun matches more shooter friendly; look to SSM or RM 3gun at matches that set the standard for match administration, ROing, etc.

As for the money/profit argument, has anyone seen the actuals expenditures? Not the guessing game the actuals? Until there is full disclosure of the detail expenditures of USPSA, the 'we did not make a profit' comment in not relevant to any USPSA match.

[Religious Shooter]

I think this illustrates why some parts of USPSA MG rules suck. You haven't been "around the block" enough to understand why the other matches allow taking a shot at a fallen clay, broken thrown bird, etc.

Hopefully the BOD members who have been around and have shoot multiple big matches understand and can persuade the other BOD members.

Why?

Saves resetting time?

In Christ: Raymond

Sure.

When my squad was on your stage I remember at least 3 reshoots. One for a downed clay and two because of the star. If we were an average squad.... 3 x 15 squads = 45 reshoots on your stage.

And if your stage was "average", 45 x 12 stages = 540 reshoots.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Religious Shooter

[Religious Shooter]

ray-first off, thanx for all the work you put in this weekend. and tell the doubters to eat sh&*. around the block? listen, i've been around more blocks than most. them are the rules-range equipment failure, period. either mod the rules or make better props. but either way, we ain't scoring for what coulda...

What the current rule isn't in dispute.

The problem lies in the feasibility and practicality of the rule in actual practice.

My squad had 15-20 reshoots. I'm sure some squads had less and maybe some squads had more.

With 15 squads there were probably 70-100 reshoots.

I don't know what block you have been around, but 70-100 reshoots is absolutely lame.