Profanity On The Range...

[MarkCO]

I got my mouth washed out with soap for saying... ...f...a...r...t...

Now you owe me a Keyboard...My dad told me I could say any words that were in the dictionary (circa 1975) so when I found "fart" in the dictionary I said it loud at the dinner table. The hand was a coming, and I ducked and shoved the dictionary up with my finger pointing at the definition..."a small explosion between the legs".

BlackSabbath, thanks for this thread. I am going to start my 9 year old shooting matches in 2011. When you teach a kid to respect authority and not "potty talk" it makes it tough when the adults can't control their speech. I'm sending links of this thread out.

[BlackSabbath]

I am one that grew up with no profanity in the house, so it is rather easy for me to not use it.

BUT, why do so many people think that it should not be used.....among children....among women.....BUT it is alright to use among grown men? I am a grown man and do not like it. If you can refrain from using it in places of business and in public places, then why show less respect when on the range? For some reason people think it does not offend grown men. I am offended by profanity on the range.

Agreed. Good post.

[BlackSabbath]

I got my mouth washed out with soap for saying... ...f...a...r...t...

Now you owe me a Keyboard...My dad told me I could say any words that were in the dictionary (circa 1975) so when I found "fart" in the dictionary I said it loud at the dinner table. The hand was a coming, and I ducked and shoved the dictionary up with my finger pointing at the definition..."a small explosion between the legs".

BlackSabbath, thanks for this thread. I am going to start my 9 year old shooting matches in 2011. When you teach a kid to respect authority and not "potty talk" it makes it tough when the adults can't control their speech. I'm sending links of this thread out.

Thanks to you as well.

[Jim Norman]

Black Sabbath,

Interesting comment. Actually I also feel it is inappropriate. As a kid, I can't honestly say I remember my father swearing a whole lot. In point of fact, I remember my mother commenting that he used to get all upset if he let something slip out inadvertently. When I got older and started working on construction sites with the company the language just seemed to be a part of work. If you didn't curse you were looked at as weird.

I would really appreciate it if when after a match the guys (for the most part it is the guys) go out to a dinner or restaurant that they watch their language. It is embarrassing to me when a I see a family seated near us and the father or mother looks over as if to say that we shouldn't be allowed indoors thanks to the language.

All this is said with the full knowledge that I have dropped my share of F-bombs on the range. I have ruined my fair share of videos and I have thrown a few things and broken a few things over the years. As I age, I find that it is now only the idiocy of people that really sets me off. My own stupidity is less likely to bother me as I have come to realize that it is only myself to blame there.

[ima45dv8]

I sent a PM to the OP asking if this could be moved. It's a discussion now, a good one, but doesn't belong in Hate.

[GrumpyOne]

To those that throw things, break things, swear and curse when something doesn't go right at the range, keep on doing it....It's real funny to watch you guys break a $1,000 or more worth of equipment because you pulled a shot. And, you look very silly doing it, much like a 2 year old throwing a tantrum....I have gotten countless laughs from it.....

Remember, don't get mad, get even.

[pjb45]

As an ex-navy man and having spent two weeks with a first class boatswain's mate working of anchor chains, I can attest that expletives can flow from my mouth like water over Niagara Falls. However, being married to a woman who does not swear and having a daughter, I have learned to control it.

I am guilty of an occasional swear word. Many on my squad have succumb to the same. I have noticed that when a woman or child is around our club is very very good at controlling our language.

Many have heard me say, after someone else's lapse, "Do you kiss your mother with that mouth!" For the most part, a gentle kinder ribbing gets the message across.

[AzYooper]

Yes I agree that some restraint should be used, I know that I do in public or around my family. Just last Tuesday my wife came out to watch me shoot a match and a group guys were in a group talking next to her, using many in-polite words. They did say "sorry" and she thought that was nice, but she said they went right back to using them.

[Bigpops]

Its a family sport...plain and simple.

My wife and I truly appreciate the fact that most of the shooters we squad with respect that fact and watch their language around our 8 year old son. He is the future of our sport. How do we want him to represent us?

Now...keep in mind...after 20 years in the Navy...I too have dropped a few &%$#@. But I do try to watch it.

[Dan Hefta]

The only time I swear at a match is after the match... when all of the lazy _______ ______s take off and only a few of us are left to teardown!

[Seth]

Here's a good trick, Dan. Refuse to accept scoresheets from squads that haven't torn down and hold back the scores from squads that shoot and scoot. Works great!

[TMC]

I whole heartedly agree, I don't want to hear it especially when my daughter is shooting with me. What is nice is at our local club it is not used much

For me its not just at the range but is seems everywhere I go you can near someone using the F work as much as my 15 year old says "like". When did it become so acceptable that people use it without even knowing they are saying it? Sad.

I rarely use profanity even when I'm really mad for frustrated and we never use it in my house no matter what, its just not necessary. My parents and immediate family set good examples for me by not allowing it (mouth washed out with soap, literally) or using it themselves even when their friends used it constantly.

I hope my kids don't fall into using it, it makes you sound stupid.

[JAFO]

Profanity is the linguistic crutch of the inarticulate mother******...

Now that I've stopped coughing on my soda...

Merlin, may I please quote you on that? My signature line needs more humor.

We have one or two folks who can go overboard with their language, usually when they are having a bad match. Instead of being cathartic, however, it kinda seems to increase their frustration.

[buckaroo45]

I'm ex-Navy too. In an earlier incarnation I was known to give lessons to boots on "creative colorization" of their speech. Alas, some 40 years have muddied my creative verbal juices. At age 64, I now find my pleasure in correctly timing an occasional "DAMMIT" and let it go at that tho I admit that shooting revolver with MY hands I am sometimes sorely tempted to add clarification.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

The time is coming when those who kill you will think they are offering service to God - John 16.2

"The sword does not kill, it is a tool in the hands of the killer".... Seneca 'the younger' (circa AD 35)

[Charles Bond]

Yes I hate the fact that I cannot always find a more eloquent way to express my dissatisfaction with my shooting performances. I'll plead guilty to using construction site language, but I try to do so only when it is just us guys. When the ladies and children are present, I make a supreme effort to at the very least keep it to a few D@mns and the like, no F-Bombs. I also try to stress the importance of this to the rest of the shooters. Interestingly enough I have been thanked by some of the ladies for this. I have also heard some rather salty language from them.

Oh my gosh. After Jim read this post the snow must have melted off of his roof.............and I regret to say it.......ditto that.

[SiG Lady]

Swear words lose their value if used too frequently--just like any other word might. I think a lot of people don't realize this. If we want to retain the shock value of our swear words, we need to use them only on 'special occasions' and not allow their impact to devalue with overuse.

[Charles Bond]

I would expect that by the next time the rules are written that the BOD will have an even stronger policy on the consequences of swearing on the range. If this sport is to grow and become more mainstream, this has to stop. While we have rules now to address that, they are nonspecific and leave much to the discretion of the range official.

It would not have been appropriate to have a rigid rule to happen overnight and the BOD considered that when they wrote the last set of rules. But it is time for this to stop. We would not tolerate someone coming into our home and using profanity in our house in front of our families. It is time for that rule to also apply to our matches.

[Seth]

Charles,

I am disappointed to hear that the BOD feels compelled to be Big Brother... at least in regard to our language.

While I would consider USPSA shooters to be, in most cases, the most thoughtful people I know, I realize that frustrations do mount and once in a while a peccadillo will slip. Honestly, what's the big deal? I've been to the Super Bowl, dozens of major league baseball games and a zillion high school sporting events. Cussing happens. Aside from not wanting to hear my 3 year old repeat it, the women and children argument is archaic. My wife has heard them all at 40 years old and uses them as appropriate. Frankly, when she lets one go, I know where I stand.

Its MY job as a parent to not have my daughter repeat words that shouldn't come out of the mouth of a child. Its also MY job as a shooter to be considerate of the other parents and children and use words that aren't profane.

Its NOT your job as the BOD to mandate my language. Are you planning to add a FTDR too? This isn't an issue of bringing USPSA to the next level... its an issue of intrusion.

[BlackSabbath]

Seth, I was in Las Vegas at the nationals this year and there was a whole lot more than a slip. We had one shooter in our squad and when he would blow a stage it was nothing but GD's and F-bombs. ALOT of them... LOUD. One RO said something to him and he stopped on that stage, but went to the very next stage and it continued. There were two shooters who had their wives there watching. Imagine how bad we look. No wonder there aren't more women shooters who want to be a part of USPSA. We can kid ourselves all we want, but this is a huge problem. If we can't clean this up, I hope and pray the BOD steps in.

Also, Seth...you're right: It is an issue of intrusion. Why should I have to listen to someone's dirty mouth when I'm there to enjoy a match? There are shooters who have to skip church to attend matches. Why should they have their day ruined because someone can't control their emotions. Sure, there's a rule for unsportsman-like conduct, but name the last time you saw it used. We are walking around with guns and ammo on our sides and shooters should act respectful.

I don't like the concept of Big Brother either, but what we're doing simply isn't working.

Edited December 16, 2010 by BlackSabbath

[Seth]

Who's gonna be the 'proper police'? Are we going to get a list of 7 dirty words that we can't say on the range? Are we going to have Miss Manners standing next to us with a notepad?

If you were squadded with a shooter that embarrassed you, ask them not to. Did the squad ask them to be more considerate? I don't like it any more than you do. Let me make that perfectly clear. I have a 3 year old and don't want her yelling F@CK. But its my job as a parent to police my kid.

Edit: Your location "Used to be the land of the free...." free speech means you have to take the ugly with the not so ugly. You don't get to pick and choose. And as for folks skipping church? Seriously? If a shooter skipped church to shoot a match, then I don't think they have much in the way of footing for lecturing on language.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Seth

[BlackSabbath]

It's not my job to issue DQ's, it's the RO's. What would you have done if you had been in that squad and your 3 year old was watching? Let's say you said something, and the shooter told you off. Then what?

Edit: Ok, well let's go the other way and put in the rule book that we allow profanity of any and all sorts. Any word you can come up with is all yours.

BTW, there's a rule in the book that states clothing that's offensive in md's opinion isn't allowed. Where are you on that one? Why can't I simply wear a shirt that says..."Hey You....F*** Off!"

Edited December 16, 2010 by BlackSabbath

[Seth]

It's not my job to issue DQ's, it's the RO's. What would you have done if you had been in that squad and your 3 year old was watching? Let's say you said something, and the shooter told you off. Then what?

Edit: Ok, well let's go the other way and put in the rule book that we allow profanity of any and all sorts. Any word you can come up with is all yours.

BTW, there's a rule in the book that states clothing that's offensive in md's opinion isn't allowed. Where are you on that one? Whay can't I can't I simply wear a shirt that says..."Hey You....F*** Off!"

Frankly, if someone told me off for asking them not to swear, I'd be pretty flustered. But you're not at the mall dealing with snot nosed teenagers... I've found precious few shooters that wouldn't immediately recognize the error of their ways, apologize and make amends. Part of the attraction to the sport is the quality of the participant.

But lets assume that they do indeed go off. My first trip would be to the RO and MD to discuss the situation.

The rule book gives you:

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a

Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike

conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty,

failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or

any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master

must be notified as soon as possible.

10.6.2 Other persons may be expelled from the range for conduct which a

Range Officer deems to be unacceptable. Examples of unacceptable

conduct include, but are not limited to, failing to comply with the reasonable

directions of a Match Official, interference with the operation

of a course of fire and/or a competitor’s attempt thereof, and any other

behaviour likely to bring the sport into disrepute.

So a DQ would be appropriate if the case can be made. As for offensive clothing, you noted that its the MDs discretion... I would hope that level heads will prevail.... but again, we're not dealing with a disrespectful segment of the population. Certainly there are exceptions, but for the most part, OUR folks know better.

My point is that more rules will only serve to unnecessarily detract from the game. Should a nationals title be decided by a slip of the tongue or high hit factor?

I feel strongly that we should police ourselves.

[redwoods]

Here is a question for those that think children shouldn't swear but its ok for adults to use inappropriate language in public.

Why is it OK to use profanities in public when you are an adult, but not as a child? At what age are you allowed to swear in public?

If we are to be examples for our children, shouldn't we walk the walk or.....talk the talk? Don't do that, but its ok for me to????

The reason why we don't want our kids hearing it and using it, is the same reason we should not be using it on the range.

[BlackSabbath]

Seth, all good points, but those rules aren't enforced when it comes to profanity. If the shooter wants to win a trophy, part of the game is following all the rules, not just the ones they choose.

"But lets assume that they do indeed go off. My first trip would be to the RO and MD to discuss the situation."

With your own statement you're asking Big Brother to step in.

[MarkCO]

First, nationals won't be decided because a cuss word slipped out. The top competitors know how to control their emotions, their firearms and their speech. They have video on them all the time now and for the most part, they are very repsectful and polite (except when they shoot that perfect double that is called a A-M). Some of us should learn from that example.

I do wonder about a person who says they can't control their speech, but we let them run around with guns and expect them to control that. Point is they don't want to control their speech.

While I agree with Seth, more rules are not necessarily beneficial, something does have to change. It is not the occasional word on a bad run...that I think anyone can deal with. It is the common conversation in which the lack of articulate speech is being punctuated with more cuss words than verbs. Cussing is not power, and it adds nothing except to lower yourself to the least common denominator.