Mag length vs capacity

[Graham Smith]

It would be too hard for the ROs to try counting to 30 or so rounds for Open shooters and not much better for Limited shooters.

OK, but for the sake of argument discussion, why not a capacity limit rather than a length limit? Limited mags could hold no more than 20 rounds and Open no more than 30. For that matter, why put a limit on Open at all, if someone wants to tote around a 50 round snail mag, let 'em.

It just seems that mag length is a somewhat arbitrary and outdated standard. Particularly when it inherently results in a variation in the number of rounds loaded.

[larry cazes]

In eight years my mags have been gauged three times. Twice at Area 2 and once at a sectional. Am I the only one who values innovation and creative design? Open is all about that as well as pushing limits. Why stifle that with a round count?

[EkuJustice]

All change would do is cause problems and complaining from alot of people. Make limited 20 rounds, watch how many complain after having dropped big bucks on the 22 round, 21 round reloadables. Go the other way and make it a free for all and watch people complain that the expensive mags they own are now obsolete

[bbbean]

All change would do is cause problems and complaining from alot of people.

From the original post: "...I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel, but I am curious as to the logic behind the current restrictions...

...Added for emphasis - Not looking to reinvent the wheel or change the current rules. Just curious. "

[Corey]

best guess on logic of current rule: its easier to govern length than round count.

[Powder Finger]

In eight years my mags have been gauged three times. Twice at Area 2 and once at a sectional. Am I the only one who values innovation and creative design? Open is all about that as well as pushing limits. Why stifle that with a round count?

Agree (I think). If a round count limit were the answer, put your # here then everybody would shoot the same basic gun to fit that criteria.

Max 8 most choose 40-45 1911's

Max 10 most choose 38S 1911's

Max 15-17 most choose cz-sw

Much of what is used today would not even exist. You can see it clearly in "modified", here's a box now build a gun to fit, that's inovation.

What i don't like is building stages around equipment like mags or round count.

If 43.5 rounds at wide open targets 5 yards away means you can shoot then..........that's all i got to say bout dat.

[ima45dv8]

A "count" restriction would stifle invention where a "length" restriction has fostered it. The last couple of years has seen a effort to get "one more round" and then to gain reliability with that round. That's one reason IPSC changed from a loosely worded restriction in PD to a round count restriction, it stopped the craziness they had going on in PD.

Only the last couple of years??? That's been going on for at least 11 that I know of.

[Bill Nesbitt]

but am still curious about the original thinking. Any of the old timers who were around for the first round of this conversation have insight to offer? BB

As I remember it:

Magazines used to have to be flush with the bottom of the frame. You could add a butt pad but it couldn't add to mag capacity. When hi-capacity guns became popular, the bottom of the mag still had to be flush with the frame. P9's held 17 in the mag and with one in the chamber, a shooter could now run an 18 round stage without a reload.

A lot of shooters still were shooting single stack guns and in an effort to let them be more competitive, the 165 mm long, 11 round single stack mags were allowed. This was when there was only one division, before Limited and the rest.

Then Limited was started, which was supposed to be a place where the single stacks could still play. 170 mm mags were allowed in single stack guns but only 140 mm in double stacks.

Now, thanks to Gary Stevens, Single Stacks do have a place to play.

[davidwiz]

Each Area has an official USPSA mag gauge. When they were made, the idea was that the gauges where supposed to be used at each Area match, as well as the Nationals.

[G-ManBart]

It would be too hard for the ROs to try counting to 30 or so rounds for Open shooters and not much better for Limited shooters.

OK, but for the sake of argument discussion, why not a capacity limit rather than a length limit? Limited mags could hold no more than 20 rounds and Open no more than 30. For that matter, why put a limit on Open at all, if someone wants to tote around a 50 round snail mag, let 'em.

It just seems that mag length is a somewhat arbitrary and outdated standard. Particularly when it inherently results in a variation in the number of rounds loaded.

A capacity restriction would be just as arbitrary as a length restriction and even counting to "only" 20 would be difficult on the ROs. Counting to 8 or 10 is pretty easy, and doesn't seem to impact safety, but the harder ROs have to pay attention to shots fired, the less they can pay attention to the important things...mostly safety. We don't need an RO thinking "was that 20 or 21 when someone breaks the 180, or sweeps themselves...and I sure wouldn't want to try doing both at the same time.

There are capacity restrictions in 4 of the 6 divisions now...no need to make it 5 or 6 out of 6. Both Open, and Limited (to a lesser degree) are about pushing the envelope of what you can do/get away with. Put a capacity restriction in place, and that goes away. Removing any restrictions on Open guns would simply cause them to be even less "practical" than they are now...and I'm mostly an Open shooter, so I can identify with this. In fact, it would take less overall skill and innovation to come up with a much larger mag that held, say 40 rounds, than it does to make a 171.25mm mag hold 30 or 31 rounds now. Hey, even Formula 1 has some rules right? If not, it would get out of hand pretty quickly. R,

[Joe4d]

As Seth mentioned mag guages are used in Area 8, This years VA/Md sectional they were used at chrono, Last years Area 8 and VA/MD they were used on a stage on mags dropped during the stage. Anyone notice the score keeper handing a mag back to you after ICHDH ? I also saw them used at the Western PA section.

At least with the STI platform many of us know what tube/pad combos make guage or are borderline without looking at gauge.

[dcalvert]

At the area 2 (Desert Classic) chrono station they check 1 mag and also box/weight the Single Stacks.

More people that are bumped into another division or shoot for fun over this than don't make

their declared power factor.

dcalvert

[staudacher]

I firmly believe there is no valid reason to increase the workload on the ROs running the stages by having them try to keep track of round counts for open and limited. IMO setting a max OAL is the best way to go.

However, I also believe that rules should be applied equally to all participants at a major match. If I am shooting production and when I get to the chrono station I am forced to submit to the USPSA's version of the TSA pat down by having my production gun weighed, measured and checked against a terrorist watch list. Then all shooters should have their equipment checked. In the case of limited and open, the magazine gauge should be used on all of the shooters magazines. IMO

[G-ManBart]

I firmly believe there is no valid reason to increase the workload on the ROs running the stages by having them try to keep track of round counts for open and limited. IMO setting a max OAL is the best way to go.

However, I also believe that rules should be applied equally to all participants at a major match. If I am shooting production and when I get to the chrono station I am forced to submit to the USPSA's version of the TSA pat down by having my production gun weighed, measured and checked against a terrorist watch list. Then all shooters should have their equipment checked. In the case of limited and open, the magazine gauge should be used on all of the shooters magazines. IMO

I agree, but there is a bit of a problem with that. I usually have 8-10 mags with me, so checking all of them will slow down the chrono station...not a huge issue, but something to consider. The real problem would be that people could easily use a mag that they didn't submit at the chrono station. Would we start putting stickers on mags to show they've been checked? How would we prevent someone from swapping basepads to one that adds an extra round, after they've been checked? Put a sticker on the tube and basepad or something? I just see it as getting to be too much of a hassle....unfortunately.

The only reasonable way around this, it would seem, would be to have a process where RO's randomly check mags after shooters are finished with a stage. I think maybe a roving RO with a gauge might be the way to go, so as to not slow down scoring on any given stage...let the stage RO's do their thing, and have the roving RO simply walk up, and request mags from the shooter just finishing, or picking them up off the ground during scoring...something like that. If we did that, it wouldn't slow things down, and it would still be a deterrent. R,

[staudacher]

I agree, but there is a bit of a problem with that. I usually have 8-10 mags with me, so checking all of them will slow down the chrono station...not a huge issue, but something to consider. The real problem would be that people could easily use a mag that they didn't submit at the chrono station. Would we start putting stickers on mags to show they've been checked? How would we prevent someone from swapping basepads to one that adds an extra round, after they've been checked? Put a sticker on the tube and basepad or something? I just see it as getting to be too much of a hassle....unfortunately.

Agreed.

The only reasonable way around this, it would seem, would be to have a process where RO's randomly check mags after shooters are finished with a stage. I think maybe a roving RO with a gauge might be the way to go, so as to not slow down scoring on any given stage...let the stage RO's do their thing, and have the roving RO simply walk up, and request mags from the shooter just finishing, or picking them up off the ground during scoring...something like that. If we did that, it wouldn't slow things down, and it would still be a deterrent. R,

I think the random check would be the most reasonable way to go. But if you go to the random magazine check I think a similar approach should be applied to the production and SS guys for the box and scale so that you aren't enforcing one equipment rule more than another and then I think we would be good to go.

Just a thought...

[EkuJustice]

Problem with doing that for SS and production would be location of safe areas. The mag gauge, grab a mag slide it in and your good to go. With production/ss and weighing and the box, you going to go to a safe area to do it. If you want a good random gauge of the mags, pick the 22/23 round stage out for the mag checks. If someone is going to be using a mag that really really pushes the envelope that is the stage its gonna happen at.

Checking at chrono would be possible and not take too much time you you basically had 2 "stations". While the shooter is on deck for the chrono, the mags could be gauged.

[staudacher]

Problem with doing that for SS and production would be location of safe areas. The mag gauge, grab a mag slide it in and your good to go. With production/ss and weighing and the box, you going to go to a safe area to do it. If you want a good random gauge of the mags, pick the 22/23 round stage out for the mag checks. If someone is going to be using a mag that really really pushes the envelope that is the stage its gonna happen at.

Checking at chrono would be possible and not take too much time you you basically had 2 "stations". While the shooter is on deck for the chrono, the mags could be gauged.

The SS and production shooters to be checked could be picked at random from the entry list and that list would be provided to the chrono station.

[Graham Smith]

The real problem would be that people could easily use a mag that they didn't submit at the chrono station.

If people want to cheat, they are going to cheat. You can cheat the chrono by turning in bullets other than the ones you shoot with when it comes to that.

Here's the thing as far as I am concerned. The whole point of the rules is to try and level the playing field (a bit) by setting some kind of limits - like capacity. In Prod and L10, there's a ten round count. In Limited and Open there are mag lengths.

For Open, I frankly don't see the point of a mag length at all, let em build mags with a balloon at the bottom that hold 100 rounds - I don't care, it's Open - most anything short of a full auto with a 8" barrel and a folding buttstock is OK by me.

As for Limited, I don't intend this as an insult, but Limited is becoming something of an elitist equipment race with one of the prizes going to the guy who can afford the super-duper custom-tuned gun with the mags that'll hold 23 rounds of .40 This is just the kind of thing that mag length was intended to eliminate and which drives some new shooters away from this sport.

And the very fact that we can have this discussion begs the question of whether or not a mag length limit is doing the job it was designed to. And if it isn't then perhaps it's time to re-examine that rule and see if there is a better alternative.

[eerw]

but am still curious about the original thinking. Any of the old timers who were around for the first round of this conversation have insight to offer? BB

As I remember it:

Magazines used to have to be flush with the bottom of the frame. You could add a butt pad but it couldn't add to mag capacity. When hi-capacity guns became popular, the bottom of the mag still had to be flush with the frame. P9's held 17 in the mag and with one in the chamber, a shooter could now run an 18 round stage without a reload.

A lot of shooters still were shooting single stack guns and in an effort to let them be more competitive, the 165 mm long, 11 round single stack mags were allowed. This was when there was only one division, before Limited and the rest.

Then Limited was started, which was supposed to be a place where the single stacks could still play. 170 mm mags were allowed in single stack guns but only 140 mm in double stacks.

Now, thanks to Gary Stevens, Single Stacks do have a place to play.

sounds familiar.

A "count" restriction would stifle invention where a "length" restriction has fostered it. The last couple of years has seen a effort to get "one more round" and then to gain reliability with that round. That's one reason IPSC changed from a loosely worded restriction in PD to a round count restriction, it stopped the craziness they had going on in PD.

Only the last couple of years??? That's been going on for at least 11 that I know of.

It's been that way ever since I started. switching to 38 super from .45 to get two more rounds, then modifying 45wilson mags to get 11 rounds of the 38 super in them.

the experimentation to get one more round has been around forever. if not. we would still be shooting 7rnd 1911s

[EkuJustice]

I doubt the mag race in limited is driving shooters away. If you have a 20+1 round gun or even a 21+1 gun you can be competative. The only real benefit to having the 22 round mag is on those occasional stages where it saves a relaod and there really isnt a good place to do on without costing you time. Most of the people that I know who have the 22 round mag do not use it in their mag rotation. It is saved for those occasional stages where it is needed. Its the same for the extended AR mags in a rifle. I have a 45 rounder but it is only used if it saves a reload. If its a 20 round COF, I just use a regular mag.

[AZGunut]

I did notice one thing at nationals this year. The gentleman at chrono were very nice and would check your mags length for you to be sure and for your own knowledge. Problem was they were using a older thin silver colored nag mag that was not the current EGW one that I thought was the official USPSA gauge. A shooting buddy had a mag that did not fit into the gauge at the chrono station and he did not use it for the match, but it did fit my EGW gauge in the hotel room that brought to the match. Way it was explained us the older silver gauge is exactly 140mm and the EGW is 141.25mm

[G-ManBart]

The real problem would be that people could easily use a mag that they didn't submit at the chrono station.

If people want to cheat, they are going to cheat. You can cheat the chrono by turning in bullets other than the ones you shoot with when it comes to that.

I support random chrono testing as well as random mag length checking...do those two things and we'd have an effective deterrent in place for both of those issues.

As for Limited, I don't intend this as an insult, but Limited is becoming something of an elitist equipment race with one of the prizes going to the guy who can afford the super-duper custom-tuned gun with the mags that'll hold 23 rounds of .40 This is just the kind of thing that mag length was intended to eliminate and which drives some new shooters away from this sport.

While many Limited shooters do spend a lot on their equipment, it hasn't stopped guys from competing on an equal basis with far less expensive equipment. I'm willing to spend a lot on gear, and while I have three 21rd mags for my Limited rig, I haven't bothered to spend the money on a 22rd mag...it's just not that big a deal. Sure, it's handy every once in a while, but not that often...I'm not shooting much Limited right now, but I don't think that would change my opinion if I was. When the first 22rd mags came out, I was shooting mostly Limited, and didn't bother getting one.

Actually the mag rule wasn't intended to do what you're suggesting. It's a legacy rule from before Limited even existed if my memory is correct.

I can't see how the lack of a mag capacity limit is going to drive people away from the sport. They've got all of the other divisions except Open that are capacity limited, if that's important to them. Many people are drawn to Limited for the very reason that they can shoot higher capacity guns, and those folks seem to like the idea of a 20, 21 or 22 round mag from what I've seen. If it's too expensive, they can shoot L-10 with the same gun, and not be giving up anything to anybody right?

[Graham Smith]

I can't see how the lack of a mag capacity limit is going to drive people away from the sport.

Perhaps I'm just more sensitive to this because I shoot a Glock 35 and can only load 19 +1, but I have spoken to a number of people who see Limited becoming division where you can "buy extra capacity" if you can afford it.

Personally, it's not that big a deal, I'm not good enough for a couple extra rounds to make a difference and I can always shoot L10 if it becomes an issue. I just think that people need to be aware that there is an opinion that USPSA has become something of an elitist sport and you have to spend a lot of money to progress.

[Seth]

There are still the physical limitations. You can only fit but so many rounds in a mag and have it fit inside the grip of our current platforms. Perhaps if someone reinvents the grip, there could be a bigger column, but at 140mm tall, you're really only gonna get so many in a stack.

[EkuJustice]

20+1 in a glock is not that difficult and puts you right where most 2011 guys are shooting. For most of the stages out there you are fine with 20+1. The only time those "buy an advantage mags" come into play is if there is like a 22 round stage. Throw some steel in there or a star and most are gonna reload anyway.

Edited December 6, 2010 by EkuJustice