Mag length vs capacity

[Corey]

is there really a difference in 19+1 and 20+1? most limited shooters ive watched end up doing a reload somewhere after the 2nd array (give or take) thats 16 or 17 rounds (pending missed shots on steel, makeups, etc). I guess bc i dont shoot limited yet i cant see a huge difference in 1 extra round in a mag.

[Singlestack]

is there really a difference in 19+1 and 20+1? most limited shooters ive watched end up doing a reload somewhere after the 2nd array (give or take) thats 16 or 17 rounds (pending missed shots on steel, makeups, etc). I guess bc i dont shoot limited yet i cant see a huge difference in 1 extra round in a mag.

1 extra round can mean the difference between a reload or not. That can be huge.

[EkuJustice]

It totally depends on the stage. Usually the closer to the mag capacity of the stages, the more valuable that round is. For the STI shooters, the 22/23 round stages are usually where the "Special mag" comes out. It can be an advantage especially if the shooter is good enough to take advantage of it ie no misses since there were no planned reloads

[Thomas H]

Personally, it's not that big a deal, I'm not good enough for a couple extra rounds to make a difference and I can always shoot L10 if it becomes an issue. I just think that people need to be aware that there is an opinion that USPSA has become something of an elitist sport and you have to spend a lot of money to progress.

Hm. I'm not sure how all of USPSA can "become something of an elitist sport" when

1) we have a Production division where this entire argument isn't even relevant

2) oh yes, we have single-stack and revolver, too, and

3) Plenty of people shoot Glocks (as an example) or other weapons in Limited and do perfectly well, without spending incredible amounts of money.

This isn't to say that if money is no object, then you don't have more choices. However, you don't HAVE to spend $2000-3000 to get a good Limited gear setup. (Open---well, that's different, IMO. There are certain things you HAVE to have to be remotely competitive in Open, that require a significant amount of initial funding.)

For Limited, of course you can have someone create and tune up an 2011 for you---or you can buy someone else's used gun (many people like doing that, and it is much cheaper) and some others take the route of buying a stock Glock 35, and going with that, and slowly upgrading parts of it over time.

I guess my point is that I really don't see how Limited is becoming an elitist sport, much less USPSA as a whole, with this many choices that frankly, aren't that expensive (compared to, for example, buying a new decent set of golf clubs).

Other than as for any hobby/serious sport, you are going to have to spend money to practice, which isn't cheap.

And I _really_ don't understand how a discussion of an extra round in a magazine translates to USPSA becoming elitist.

How's that work?

[Graham Smith]

And I _really_ don't understand how a discussion of an extra round in a magazine translates to USPSA becoming elitist.

I'm just trying to pass along things that I have heard, so don't shoot the messenger.

Some people find that Limited has become as much of an equipment race as Open. It's one thing when it comes to buying a "better" gun but when it comes to something as fundamental as magazine capacity then it really does look to some like it's all about how much you can afford to spend and this can turn people off.

I know that I am likely stepping on some toes here so I think it's past time for me to zip it.

[smokshwn]

And I _really_ don't understand how a discussion of an extra round in a magazine translates to USPSA becoming elitist.

I'm just trying to pass along things that I have heard, so don't shoot the messenger.

Some people find that Limited has become as much of an equipment race as Open. It's one thing when it comes to buying a "better" gun but when it comes to something as fundamental as magazine capacity then it really does look to some like it's all about how much you can afford to spend and this can turn people off.

I know that I am likely stepping on some toes here so I think it's past time for me to zip it.

What you have heard and are passing along is just the same tired old "sour grapes" excuses that the critics of the world like to throw in the air whenever they are confronted with the reality they do not have the desire to practice and work hard enough to be competitive in the first place. These folks, regardless of huge mountains of evidence to the contrary, continue to find all sorts of external reasons why they are not as competitive as shooter X when in reality much of there lack of performance lies solely on them and their internal inadequacies. When you inject it into a conversation concerning any type of gun improvement etc, I don't think people get their toes bent out of shape as much as it is tiresome to always have to entertain the lowest common denominator simply because they continue to complain about everything but their inability to put forth the effort to improve.

FWIW coming from a shotgun sports background, USPSA hasn't even got a foot in the door with respect to elitism.

Edited December 6, 2010 by smokshwn

[Bear23]

The open and limited mags have really hit their theoretical capacity limit. I can't see someone coming up with a new spring and or follower basepad combo that is going to give 23 or more rounds in a 140 mag for .40cal., or 31 to the open mag. Unless someone comes up with a mag without a spring and uses some other device to lift the rounds up.

[EkuJustice]

FWIW coming from a shotgun sports background, USPSA hasn't even got a foot in the door with respect to elitism.

Agree 100percent. Came from a skeet background here What a good open gun runs, that about entry level for skeet equipment new. Drop 10-12k or a Krieghoff that will sure turn some heads right? Nope thats their standard model with basic wood. The head turners start at about 20k and go up from there. That is elitism right there

[Flexmoney]

Para's have been getting 22 rounds for most of the last decade.

And, I know a stage designer that shoots a Para, and designs all paper stages...with 11 targets.

In other words ... stage design can make or break most advantages.

[ima45dv8]

I routinely run 19 + 1 in my Limited mags. I could squeeze more in but I run the 13-coil Grams guts (the 170 kit) in my 140's for reliability. I don't feel like I'm at a disadvantage.

I have a 21 rounder in my bag for special occasions but haven't seen the need for it but once this year.

[GrumpyOne]

I firmly believe there is no valid reason to increase the workload on the ROs running the stages by having them try to keep track of round counts for open and limited. IMO setting a max OAL is the best way to go.

However, I also believe that rules should be applied equally to all participants at a major match. If I am shooting production and when I get to the chrono station I am forced to submit to the USPSA's version of the TSA pat down by having my production gun weighed, measured and checked against a terrorist watch list. Then all shooters should have their equipment checked. In the case of limited and open, the magazine gauge should be used on all of the shooters magazines. IMO

I agree, but there is a bit of a problem with that. I usually have 8-10 mags with me, so checking all of them will slow down the chrono station...not a huge issue, but something to consider. The real problem would be that people could easily use a mag that they didn't submit at the chrono station. Would we start putting stickers on mags to show they've been checked? How would we prevent someone from swapping basepads to one that adds an extra round, after they've been checked? Put a sticker on the tube and basepad or something? I just see it as getting to be too much of a hassle....unfortunately.

The only reasonable way around this, it would seem, would be to have a process where RO's randomly check mags after shooters are finished with a stage. I think maybe a roving RO with a gauge might be the way to go, so as to not slow down scoring on any given stage...let the stage RO's do their thing, and have the roving RO simply walk up, and request mags from the shooter just finishing, or picking them up off the ground during scoring...something like that. If we did that, it wouldn't slow things down, and it would still be a deterrent. R,

Bart, that's a very good idea...But at the chrono station, what if the chrono officer randomly picked one of your mags on your belt? I mean, you'd still have a chance to change the mag, but you'd have that chance just about anywhere as well. The best way, IMO, would be to have the second RO picking up your dropped mags as you shoot and measure them. Then there is proof that you are either using legal (or illegal) mags in the run you just made. Make it part of a long course, where the chances of using an illegal mag is more likely.

[EkuJustice]

Even better than on a long stage would be a nice 22 round stage where if the shooter is going to bring out their special mag, its going to be there.

[Singlestack]

You guy's are dreaming.

Don't you think that after the first guy got checked the word would spread and any illegal mags would be stored? Guarantee it. Like wildfire.

The only people that would get caught would be the people that didn't know their mag was illegal.

[spanky]

is there really a difference in 19+1 and 20+1? most limited shooters ive watched end up doing a reload somewhere after the 2nd array (give or take) thats 16 or 17 rounds (pending missed shots on steel, makeups, etc). I guess bc i dont shoot limited yet i cant see a huge difference in 1 extra round in a mag.

We shot a 22 round stage last weekend.

I was very happy to have my 21rd mags at that point.

[GrumpyOne]

You guy's are dreaming.

Don't you think that after the first guy got checked the word would spread and any illegal mags would be stored? Guarantee it. Like wildfire.

The only people that would get caught would be the people that didn't know their mag was illegal.

Who said anything about checking on just one stage? Random stages....

[Merlin Orr]

I say lets add checking for POWER FACTOR as well as MAG LENGTH to this thread so we can really waste bandwidth with this useless bullshit discussion...

[Singlestack]

You guy's are dreaming.

Don't you think that after the first guy got checked the word would spread and any illegal mags would be stored? Guarantee it. Like wildfire.

The only people that would get caught would be the people that didn't know their mag was illegal.

Who said anything about checking on just one stage? Random stages....

You will never catch the intentional cheater. OK, maybe one.

If someone has so little integrity, I don't care. That's on them.

[GrumpyOne]

You guy's are dreaming.

Don't you think that after the first guy got checked the word would spread and any illegal mags would be stored? Guarantee it. Like wildfire.

The only people that would get caught would be the people that didn't know their mag was illegal.

Who said anything about checking on just one stage? Random stages....

You will never catch the intentional cheater. OK, maybe one.

If someone has so little integrity, I don't care. That's on them.

That's what I don't understand.... All they are doing is cheating themselves. If they are cheating, someone will notice....Woo Hoo! I'm a GM in cheating! Who wants to shoot with you now?

Edited December 7, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[G-ManBart]

The open and limited mags have really hit their theoretical capacity limit. I can't see someone coming up with a new spring and or follower basepad combo that is going to give 23 or more rounds in a 140 mag for .40cal., or 31 to the open mag. Unless someone comes up with a mag without a spring and uses some other device to lift the rounds up.

There are 31 round Open mags now...but 32, I'd have to see to believe it!

[G-ManBart]

Bart, that's a very good idea...But at the chrono station, what if the chrono officer randomly picked one of your mags on your belt? I mean, you'd still have a chance to change the mag, but you'd have that chance just about anywhere as well. The best way, IMO, would be to have the second RO picking up your dropped mags as you shoot and measure them. Then there is proof that you are either using legal (or illegal) mags in the run you just made. Make it part of a long course, where the chances of using an illegal mag is more likely.

Sure, that's a possibility. I don't wear mags on my belt except from the time I'm in the hole to the time I reset after a stage. At the chrono, I typically walk up with just one in my hand/pocket. So, they wouldn't have any to choose from. Some sort of random event, during/following a stage is probably the way to go. I'd prefer it not only on one stage, as we'd all find out which one that would be pretty quickly. Heck, I don't care...they can check 'em all they want, I'm not going to cheat

[CenTX]

Thinking about this subject regarding mag or ammo restrictions caused another question to pop up in my tiny little mind... why is magazine length never checked at matches? I have shot local matches, sectional matches, area matches (Area 2, Area 4), Double Tap twice and Nationals. Never have I seen, heard or experienced a mag length check for Open or Limited. How hard can it be to have someone roving with a mag guage? A gentleman, at a local match, who shoots the same Division and Class (B Open) was bragging about being able to load 32 rounds of 38SC in his 170mm mag. Looking at his mag it was no wonder that he could. A 170mm SVI tube with a Dawson +2 basepad. I grabbed the club mag guage and tried to put the mag in it. Not even close! He was surprised when I told him that if he used the mag in the match I would file a protest.

Has anybody ever had their mags checked at a match?

Pat

The only match I can remember having my mags checked was the Columbus Cup in El Salvador.

[Corey]

is there really a difference in 19+1 and 20+1? most limited shooters ive watched end up doing a reload somewhere after the 2nd array (give or take) thats 16 or 17 rounds (pending missed shots on steel, makeups, etc). I guess bc i dont shoot limited yet i cant see a huge difference in 1 extra round in a mag.

We shot a 22 round stage last weekend.

I was very happy to have my 21rd mags at that point.

Without a 21rd'er in the bag, it woudnt have mattered if was a 19 or 20 tho .

but yea, i can see where on a few stages it may be a make or break deal but for most longer courses where anyone is going to have to reload i guess i cant see where the extra round would be that important yet (again im sure i will after i start shooting LTD next year).

[rgkeller]

Just a matter of time until somebody does the Surefire thing to STI pistols.

http://www.defensereview.com/dr-exclusive-surefire-60-shot-and-100-shot-ar-ar-15m16-5-56mm-nato-box-magazines-for-infantry-combat-and-tactical-engagements-meet-the-surefire-mag5-60-and-mag5-100-high-capacity-magazines-hcms/

[CenTX]

but am still curious about the original thinking. Any of the old timers who were around for the first round of this conversation have insight to offer? BB

As I remember it:

Magazines used to have to be flush with the bottom of the frame. You could add a butt pad but it couldn't add to mag capacity. When hi-capacity guns became popular, the bottom of the mag still had to be flush with the frame. P9's held 17 in the mag and with one in the chamber, a shooter could now run an 18 round stage without a reload.

A lot of shooters still were shooting single stack guns and in an effort to let them be more competitive, the 165 mm long, 11 round single stack mags were allowed. This was when there was only one division, before Limited and the rest.

Then Limited was started, which was supposed to be a place where the single stacks could still play. 170 mm mags were allowed in single stack guns but only 140 mm in double stacks.

Now, thanks to Gary Stevens, Single Stacks do have a place to play.

The flush magazines were not part of the original rules. The first draft of the IPSC rules, June, 1978 , I have them posted them on the Forums somewhere state, " 6. Extension magazines for auto pistols (containing a larger number of rounds) are permitted only on reload, and may not be carried in the pistol in its ready condition."

Round count was not much of an issue in the early days, most courses of fire had much smaller round counts than we have today. My guess is high cap mags brought about high round counts. In the early days the browning Hi-Power was the typical hi-cap gun, but you were shooting minor.

I quit shooting around 1984, so what happened between 1984 to 2004, I don't know the details.