RO Screw Up

[sperman]

I was running a very experienced shooter on a stage today. I've shot with him on numerous occasions, and have no doubts at all about his gun handling skills. The stage was a little tricky, with lots of opportunities for the shooter to sweep themselves. Once the stage was over, I let my guard down. As he racked the slide, I noticed there was still a round in the gun. Unfortunately I was too busy trying to catch his ejected round, and running through "IYAFUASC, ICHD, H" and wasn't able to stop him before he dropped the slide and pulled the trigger.

I know he's the one who forgot to eject the mag, and the one who pulled the trigger. But I feel like if I had been doing my job properly I would have been able to stop him before he dropped the slide and ended up DQ'd.

Lesson 1: Forget the ejected round. That's not where the RO focus needs to be.

Lesson 2: The range commands are not just something to be said before scoring the targets. Say them slowly, and pay attention. If the shooter rushes through the unloading process and screws up, there's not much you can do. But there is no excuse for the RO rushing the process.

Edited November 13, 2010 by sperman

[George Jones]

Why bother trying to catch the ejected round? As you realize, you have more important things to focus on.

[Joe4d]

I've seen the results of a detonated caught round. Never try to catch an ejected round.

[JThompson]

If the round comes close enough I sometimes snatch it out of the air having never moved my eyes from the gun. ~

An RM once told me he would not say anything, even if he saw the mag still in. In other words, he would let the shooter DQ himself. I disagree with that. I may issue safety warning at any time...if I see that the mag hasn't been dropped, I have an will say so.

JT

Edited November 13, 2010 by JThompson

[yoshidaex]

I don't think it's a miss on your part.

You asked IYAFUASC.

Did he SC?

[sperman]

If the round comes close enough I sometimes snatch it out of the air having never moved my eyes from the gun. ~

There is a well known RM that told me that he would not say anything, even if he saw the mag still in. In other words, he would let the shooter DQ himself. I disagree with that. I may issue safety warning at any time...if I see that the mag hasn't been dropped, I have an will say so.

JT

I don't think I took my eyes off of the gun, but everything happened in a short amount of time. I feel like I saw that the mag was still in the gun, but wasn't able to react quick enough because I was distracted. Who knows? It all happened so fast that I might not have been able to stop him no matter what, but I would feel better if all doubt were removed from my mind.

[Ronnie j]

Your experienced shooter is now even more so.

[sperman]

Your experienced shooter is now even more so.

It was an educational experience for both of us.

[JThompson]

If the round comes close enough I sometimes snatch it out of the air having never moved my eyes from the gun. ~

There is a well known RM that told me that he would not say anything, even if he saw the mag still in. In other words, he would let the shooter DQ himself. I disagree with that. I may issue safety warning at any time...if I see that the mag hasn't been dropped, I have an will say so.

JT

I don't think I took my eyes off of the gun, but everything happened in a short amount of time. I feel like I saw that the mag was still in the gun, but wasn't able to react quick enough because I was distracted. Who knows? It all happened so fast that I might not have been able to stop him no matter what, but I would feel better if all doubt were removed from my mind.

That's the problem with the "speed unload" it's also why I get peeved and tell them to show me clear again. I split the commands and don't issue them all at the same time. If you are finished, unload and show clear.........................................If Clear...........................Hammer down........................Holster. Those that blow me off might find themselves doing it over again. If they give the commands the respect they deserve, I can help the prevent such an occurrence.

JT

Edited November 13, 2010 by JThompson

[BayouSlide]

That's the problem with the "speed unload" it's also why I get peeved and tell them to show me clear again. I split the commands and don't issue them all at the same time. If you are finished, unload and show clear.........................................If Clear...........................Hammer down........................Holster. Those that blow me off might find themselves doing it over again. If they give the commands the respect they deserve, I can help the prevent such an occurrence.

JT

That's my approach as well. Slow, methodical, one step at a time. If the competitor is shielding the chamber or a little too speedy, the "Show clear" gets repeated with emphasis. No need to rush any of this.

I appreciate sperman's sharing this educational experience...a reminder like this is useful lesson for both ROs and competitors.

Curtis

[mhs]

I have no sympathy for this guy. If the shooter is too impatient/rude to wait for "ICHDH", it's on him. I'd like to see a rule making it a proceedural to drop the slide before the command.

[sperman]

I don't want to give the impression the shooter was doing a speed unload. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary until the very last split second when i saw gold where I should have seen black, and then the gun went bang.

Like I said, it all happened real quick. I may have given him, ICHD. That's part of why I feel so bad. I think both of us were on autopilot.

[JThompson]

I have no sympathy for this guy. If the shooter is too impatient/rude to wait for "ICHDH", it's on him. I'd like to see a rule making it a proceedural to drop the slide before the command.

It's easy to fall into that habit and doesn't mean that they guy is an ass... at least not always. We as ROs need to reeducate those who have become lax. I ALWAYS hold my gun open to the RO and wait for them to look. It's funny, a lot of the time it's me reminding the RO to have a look as they are used to rushing through the commands and are already telling me to holster the damned thing before they had a peek.

JT

Edited November 14, 2010 by JThompson

[Nik Habicht]

I have no sympathy for this guy. If the shooter is too impatient/rude to wait for "ICHDH", it's on him. I'd like to see a rule making it a proceedural to drop the slide before the command.

As former Area 1 Director liked to point out -- procedurals are to address items of competitive iniquity; disqualification is for safety issues. I don't think dropping the slide too quickly falls into either category, and ROs already have options to address the situation....

[Nik Habicht]

I don't want to give the impression the shooter was doing a speed unload. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary until the very last split second when i saw gold where I should have seen black, and then the gun went bang.

Like I said, it all happened real quick. I may have given him, ICHD. That's part of why I feel so bad. I think both of us were on autopilot.

Thank you for sharing -- I'd prefer to learn this way.... :D

[JThompson]

This kind of stuff happens esp when the shooter's routine is broken. I think there were 4 at the Il section where you finished the stage with the ammo can in your hand. Somehow it broke up the way people do things and this lead to them forgetting to drop the mag.

If we as shooters and ROs don't hurry the commands and pay attention, this DQ will almost never happen. If this happened to a shooter when I'm running a stage I would take it as a personal failure. (not at you Scott) it's just I try and do everything I can to make sure it doesn't happen. That's impossible if the shooter it dropping the hammer before I get the first command out of my mouth.

I've also gave the quick MR command to a guy that I saw going for the gun. What happened was my second RO read the next shooters name something like "Matt Reed's on deck" ... I saw the shooter go for the gun after that and I issues a hasty make ready to prevent the DQ. The range was clear and I was about to issue anyway. He heard the other RO say something close to MR and went to the gun. Which brings me to the point of this tangent. Read the order before the shooter gets in position or after he's done shooting. DO NOT read the order when the shooter is waiting for MR! I've also seen this happen with some loud gallery talk... once a guy get's in position for MR stfu... that goes for everyone except the RO with the timer.

JT

Edited November 14, 2010 by JThompson

[Dave Campbell]

I started shooting before 40 Cal was popular?.( in use ) . When it came out I had 3 different shooters, have AD's at the time at ULASC. The rounds went off when they hit the ejector. The first , the shooter had covered the ejection port with his hand and had to have the pieces of brass from the AD dug out of his hand. After that I learned to stay behind the shooter until he/she was holding the slide open/back to show clear. The next two were harmless to the shooter and the RO (ME) as the shooter held the gun up, and I was behind them as they ejected the round in the chamber, after dropping the mag , and as they were ULASC the round went off and all material from the AD went away from both of us. As a survival technique, I stay behind the shooter during ULASC and if necessary will ask to see clear until its Clear . I will not watch the round come out , I will not catch the round coming out. I don't care what is happing anywhere else on the range until I see clear.

That seems to work for me.

[open17]

Yup. It's easy to get complacent, both as a shooter and as a RO. I do understand why

a RO would feel bad about DQ'ing the shooter, and try to accept some of the blame. I've felt

bad about it every time I've DQ'ed someone. It's never stopped me from making the call.

Do keep in mind who is ultimately responsible for the condition of the gun at ULASC.

(in the US anyway) THE SHOOTER. The gun went bang when it shouldn't---the RO didn't

cause that.

IF you are finished----and IF clear, hammer down , holster. If it's not clear, the

burden is on the shooter to NOT hammer down!

[JThompson]

I started shooting before 40 Cal was popular?.( in use ) . When it came out I had 3 different shooters, have AD's at the time at ULASC. The rounds went off when they hit the ejector. The first , the shooter had covered the ejection port with his hand and had to have the pieces of brass from the AD dug out of his hand. After that I learned to stay behind the shooter until he/she was holding the slide open/back to show clear. The next two were harmless to the shooter and the RO (ME) as the shooter held the gun up, and I was behind them as they ejected the round in the chamber, after dropping the mag , and as they were ULASC the round went off and all material from the AD went away from both of us. As a survival technique, I stay behind the shooter during ULASC and if necessary will ask to see clear until its Clear . I will not watch the round come out , I will not catch the round coming out. I don't care what is happing anywhere else on the range until I see clear.

That seems to work for me.

I don't stick my hand over there, I see it as it tumbles out and back... if it as going to detonate it would already have happened.

JT

[Gary Johnson]

Speed unloads and squibs are two of my biggest worries.

Both happen so fast that even if you're on top of your game, you still might not be fast enough to do anything about it.

[JThompson]

Speed unloads and squibs are two of my biggest worries.

Both happen so fast that even if you're on top of your game, you still might not be fast enough to do anything about it.

It's true... I had what sounded like a squib this summer. I sat there thinking about it for a sec, no RO said stop, nor did the gallery. I racked the slide and saw the bullet on the end of the case of the round that sounded like a squib. Aha! reversed primer... I proceeded after waiting/hoping someone would yell stop because I wasted so much time! lol None of them said boo. hahah The RO says to me, when I saw you rack it I ducked behind you in case it blew! I said, well why the fk didn't you stop me!!?

JT

Edited November 14, 2010 by JThompson

[ima45dv8]

I almost screwed up in a very similar fashion just yesterday.

I finished a stage on one knee at a low port, and had reloaded as I was going down. At ULSC I grabed the mag on the ground, stood up, and put it in my back pocket. Since I always drop the mag in the gun and put it in my back pocket before retracting the slide to eject the round in the chamber, I guess the "habit" part had been satisfied. I proceeded directly to ejecting the live round without dropping the partially loaded mag that was in gun.

Thankfully I also hold the slide open for me and the RO to both see the chamber is clear. That's when I saw the live rounds in the mag through the ejection port. I'm very glad I wasn't on autopilot with the routine. I would have been mortified to light one off at "Hammer down".

Close call...

[davidwiz]

At the Nationals, a few people were doing the "speed unload" and seemed to get upset when I asked them show me that their gun was clear. Too many people pick up bad habits from local club matches.

[BritinUSA]

Familiarity breeds contempt. We do the ULASC so many times that we take it for granted that the gun is empty, that the magazine has been removed. I think the 'trick' is to take a breath at the end of the course of fire.

The clock stops at the last shot, the speed at which the gun is unloaded is not a factor in the score... SLOW DOWN!

• Inhale
• Exhale
• Remove magazine
• Rack slide
• Show gun

If this is done at the local matches then it becomes second-nature. It also sets a great example for the newer shooters.

[A63111]

At club matches I have noticed that many of the experienced shooters are complacent about UASC. They often are holstering before I have finished the commands. They are also the same ones who complain if you say something about there speed. In those cases a DQ is always going to be on the shooter.

New shooters I try to coach into a slow and methodical UASC making sure there weapon is truly empty.

ROs control safety, but only to the degree that the shooter complies in some instances. If the shooter is faster that the commands that must be on the shooter.

Just my .02.