Insurance Shot

[JThompson]

One thing I noticed out of a lot of the top dogs is an extra shot on a tight target or popper. I've seen it time and again from Max and others... Say there is a single popper in a shooting position, they don't wait to see the thing move or hear it, they just put two or even three shots on it as they are moving. That way, the never have to stop or pull the gun back to engage a missed shot. I've also seen this for tight targets. We'd like to think we call every shot, but if that was the case, we would have any mikes. Since most of us miss once in a while I would submit that it better to put an extra shot on a tight target in .2 s than to risk the mike. I am also beginning to think that instead of slowing way down and being deliberate on tight shots, I need to shoot them down just a tick and use my shot calling to tell me when I have my hits... that, whether it takes two or three shots. I did some drills to check the times doing it both ways and I found I could consistently engage tight target with three shots that I made calls on rather than two deliberate shots that I all but guaranteed by slowing way down.

I haven't formed any conclusions on this yet, but I feel it's worth a bit of time in training and see where it leads. What I have seen so far is comparable hits with a time -.1-.2 or so.

Edited November 1, 2010 by JThompson

[Flexmoney]

If you are shooting on the move...and keep moving...the extra shots don't cost much time at all. For me it also means I don't have to be so smooth with my movement...meaning that, if I bounce the gun a bit due to a foot hitting the ground it won't matter since I will have fired a shot either before or after the foot hit.

[JThompson]

If you are shooting on the move...and keep moving...the extra shots don't cost much time at all. For me it also means I don't have to be so smooth with my movement...meaning that, if I bounce the gun a bit due to a foot hitting the ground it won't matter since I will have fired a shot either before or after the foot hit.

This would seem to be more helpful for hicap guns, but could also be useful for others as long as they keep in mind where they are in round count with relation to reloads.

JT

[sirveyr]

I only take "insurance shots" when shooting an IDPA match, so that I can reload at a more advantageous location.

As JT stated, this would work great in Limited or Open, but I will slow down for those shots in Production or SS. I will be trying this method though.

[JThompson]

Here's an example of me doing it at a local... you can see the target is narrow and I took 3 because I didn't lose a lick of time. As it turned out, I needed the extra shot... on e was just in the black.

http://www.youtube.com/user/OpenMClass?feature=mhum

[kevin c]

I agree that such a strategy might work in a Division where you can afford to put the extra shots on target and will not drop too many points in the process.

But in 10 round Divisions, and especially in Production with Minor scoring, I'd think there are too many downsides to shooting insurance shots. A 10 round magazine limits the extra rounds available, and in Production, shooting A's, or perhaps, not shooting C's, is where it's at. I'd rather be more careful to get the maximum points in the first one or two on target rather than flinging a hoper after a couple less than perfectly aimed shots, and still ending up with two C's.

Now if I call a D or Mike, it might be a different story, and I will hammer down steel if that's what's appropriate for an activator, or to access a target covered by the popper. Or if I've got the extra rounds and putting them downrange on a tough target is a nonissue timewise, as pointed out above.

[EkuJustice]

I will usually do it on a swinger just to make sure the hits are all there. In 3 gun, usually on a tough rifle shot, I will add an extra one just to make sure. Sometimes its needed other times its not.

[Flexmoney]

I do it in Production all the time. Just part of stage planning.

Often Production (and L-10) shooters will plan stages to reload as close to an empty mag as possible. When, sometimes, it pays to shoot 6 rounds or so and do an extra reload.

As seen here: http://www.youtube.com/user/Flexmoney#p/a/u/0/8LkrIiN_E0k

[wurm]

I only take "insurance shots" when shooting an IDPA match, so that I can reload at a more advantageous location.

As JT stated, this would work great in Limited or Open, but I will slow down for those shots in Production or SS. I will be trying this method though.

As an IDPA Safety Officer in Michigan, I'll be keeping my eye out for you

I'm not usually one for make up shots, just because I always assume that if I take the extra tenth or two to see my sights I won't need to waste the .2 taking an extra shot. On the other hand, this past weekend I shot a crazy stage with more movers than I've ever seen strung together. I did my usual thing and put two on each cardboard and then I watched a guy who shot a ton of extra shots with super fast splits. He and I ended up with about the same same amount of points down. Makes me wonder if maybe I'm being a little too careful with my shooting. Hmm...

[Chris Keen]

I do it in Production all the time. Just part of stage planning.

As seen here: http://www.youtube.c...u/0/8LkrIiN_E0k

Did the 3 Foot Faults help out at all????

Edited November 2, 2010 by Chris Keen

[JThompson]

I do it in Production all the time. Just part of stage planning.

As seen here: http://www.youtube.c...u/0/8LkrIiN_E0k

Did the 3 Foot Faults help out at all????

Doh!

[Powder Finger]

I do it in Production all the time. Just part of stage planning.

As seen here: http://www.youtube.c...u/0/8LkrIiN_E0k

Did the 3 Foot Faults help out at all????

Nice catch, too funny.

[HoMiE]

I don't think they are throwing insurance shots, they just know they didn't hit what they were aiming for by not seeing what they expected to see to call the shot properly.

It's totally different if your moving and have the rounds to keep shooting, but I'd say for most people they are better off to give the target the respect it deserves for whatever skill level your at. Everyone always ask what's better, speed or accuracy? I say they are both important, but you have to do both speed and accuracy consistantly.

[Corey]

I've shot insurance shots once in a great while. For me shooting single stack all year last year, I usually didnt have much opportunity to do so without screwing up a reload plan or going to slidelock when i didnt want to. I'd hate to get to the scoring and only see 1 hole instead of 2 when .20s could have helped. that being said, seeing 3 in the Azone gives me a weird feeling too, haha

[AlamoShooter]

I was surprised at how many 3 gunners are taking insurance shots with rifle. Better shooters than me. I only do it if I don't see my sights or the shot when I take my required shots

[sirveyr]

I was surprised at how many 3 gunners are taking insurance shots with rifle. Better shooters than me. I only do it if I don't see my sights or the shot when I take my required shots

I think what the OP is refering to is taking planned "extra" shots. Calling our shots is great, but being able to hammer three into a target so that we can shoot a little quicker is even better. If there is no threat of penalty (no-shoot in the way), then I see nothing wrong with planning to take an extra shot on difficult head shots and/or hard-cover partials. As long as it's part of our plan, it will be much quicker than reacting to a called miss. I think...

[JThompson]

I posed the question to Max...

" Max, I have a question for you... We are discussing "insurance shots" when on the move. I have seen you throw a couple shots on a popper on the move. Were the extra shots because you didn't call the shot or because it was safer to put two on it to insure a hit on the move?"

-Max

"I never take insurance shots. Just call your shots and if you don't like it make it up."

Thx to Max for taking the time to give me an answer...

JT

Edited November 2, 2010 by JThompson

[HoMiE]

I posed the question to Max...

" Max, I have a question for you... We are discussing "insurance shots" when on the move. I have seen you throw a couple shots on a popper on the move. Were the extra shots because you didn't call the shot or because it was safer to put two on it to insure a hit on the move?"

-Max

"I never take insurance shots. Just call your shots and if you don't like it make it up."

Thx to Max for taking the time to give me an answer...

JT

There you go, its better to know then to hope.

[benos]

"I never take insurance shots. Just call your shots and if you don't like it make it up."

-Max

I was hoping Max was going to say that. (And not just because I was. )

be

[CHA-LEE]

Taking "Insurance" shots is a waste of time in my mind. It also builds a bad habit of allowing yourself to not see what you need to see and "Hope" hits onto targets. If you are pushing the limits on seeing what you need to see to call the shot or moving at the limits of your aggressiveness then you are going to end up with make up shots from time to time due to shots that are called marginal or bad. The marginal shot may have still been a hit but since it was a marginal called shot it needs to be made up.

I think this is where people confuse calling shots only as shots that produce good hits. Being able to call your shot is a separate process from it being a good or bad hit. I have called plenty of marginal or bad shots due to a host of technique failures on my part. The key is to be able to call your shots and know that the hit will be there or not without needing to see or hear a confirmation. The faster you shoot the more important the ability shot calling becomes.

In this game where stages are won or lost by sub second stage times, every extra shot is a time killer. Sure some make up shots can be masked by movement or other things but in the end, waste is still waste.

[CC712400]

I think the big difference between insurance shot and make up shots are in the name. Make-up shots are taken after the fact, once you either called a bad shot, or saw a target with too few holes in it. Insurance shots are shots you were planning on taking before you even line up your sights on the target.

First time I ever shot at 100yd at a match was from an angle, at 1/2 and 1/3 scale targets, with irons. Before coming to the line, I KNEW I was going to take three shots at all of the partial scale targets. I had quite a few targets with three holes in them, and none with only one, but there were certainly a few that only had two...

Fundamentally though, most people probably use insurance shots like a crutch, in the same way that looking for holes in paper and listening for the sound of steel are too.

[G-ManBart]

I do it in Production all the time. Just part of stage planning.

Often Production (and L-10) shooters will plan stages to reload as close to an empty mag as possible. When, sometimes, it pays to shoot 6 rounds or so and do an extra reload.

As seen here: http://www.youtube.com/user/Flexmoney#p/a/u/0/8LkrIiN_E0k

Absolutely! I can't count how many times I've seen three or four targets, then a long ways to the next array, with subsequent arrays pretty close. Most folks shoot the first array and move, then try to squeeze a reload in somewhere between the later arrays. In that case, I'll shoot the first, reload at that point, then shoot the rest without a reload...it's just easier and offers a margin of error in case you bobble it. R,

[T_Linville]

At our local match the other day we had a popper that was stubborn once in a while and a few shooters had to hit it twice to get it to go down. So in my stage planning i figured i would just double tap or drive it down. That is about the only time i have done an insurance shot. But being that i am pretty new to this sport i am learning new things every match..

[EkuJustice]

I will do it with moving targets on occasion if I have to rush it more than im really comfortable doing.

[blaster113]

Most of the time I'll let loose insurance shots on swingers which I cant seem to hit worth a shit. The rest of the time I'll take one if I call a bad shot (D/M), or hosing and go a little too fast and miss completely .