Failure to Engage

[gunshrink]

This has gotten to be a major mental block or something - really need some help. I am just in my second year of shooting. I usually hit what I shoot at and my times are getting better. The problem is with the statement "hit what I shoot at." My biggest problem has been in missing (not engaging) targets in the heat of the battle. If I could fix this I would be on my way to better things. I know it is mental and that in time it should not be as big an issues, but wondering if anyone has some technique that helps with the flow of the COF and making sure all are engaged.

[lilbeauxdawg]

after the stage briefing make sure you know the round count. as you walk through the stage count the rounds you would be firing to make sure you have accounted for all the targets on the stage. if you count 30 and the stage is 32 rounds long walk behind the stage or look above the barricades/ walls to try to find the target you missed and find out where you can engage it. what i like to do before it is my turn to shoot (about 2 to 3 shooters ahead of me) is get in the ready position ACT like i draw the gun when the actual buzzer goes off and mentally run through the stage in a circle of about a four foot diameter so i don't run into people. this way i know where the targets are for each array and where i need to go. once it is my turn to shoot and the buzzer goes off it is all muscle memory from there.

hope that helps

lilB

Edited November 1, 2010 by lilbeauxdawg

[Sarge]

For me, it is all in the walk through. I go behind all the props etc and count targets. Then I come up with a plan and don't change anything midstream. I walk it through as many times as I can. Other than that....

[TRev1911]

Develop a good plan that works for you. Once you have the plan set. Close your eyes and visualize the draw, movement to each target and shooting each array. If you can visualize the plan it enables you execute your plan better and shoot each target in order. Also once you visualize the plan - don't change it. Learned that one the hard way several times.

[bbbean]

What I've found is that if I can close my eyes and run the stage in my mind and hit the targets, I can actually run the stage and see them all. What I try to do is just walk the stage til I see a plan, and then stand off to the side and visualize the stage in my mind. I've found that visualizing it once is often better than walking through the stage an extra 2 or 3 times.

[JThompson]

Someone hit him with a link to that "Stage Ownership" deal....

JT

[CZinSC]

This has gotten to be a major mental block or something - really need some help. I am just in my second year of shooting. I usually hit what I shoot at and my times are getting better. The problem is with the statement "hit what I shoot at." My biggest problem has been in missing (not engaging) targets in the heat of the battle. If I could fix this I would be on my way to better things. I know it is mental and that in time it should not be as big an issues, but wondering if anyone has some technique that helps with the flow of the COF and making sure all are engaged.

What division are you shooting? I shoot Production, and I know for me, when I started, I would start walking a stage and concentrate on where my reloads would be...before I had the correct round count. What was happening was I was actually planning to fail. After having a number of back to back weeks with FTE's, I changed my walk through process. I now walk the COF a number of times ensureing that I see all of the total targets, and only when I know where EVERY target is, do I THEN go back and plan my reloads.

[Maksim]

Help tape/score/ro. When you walk the stage, after 5 times or so, you will see all of the targets. I had a few brainfarts like this that I would miss targets... but it was all a result of not walking the entire stage.

[gunshrink]

For the person that asked, I am shooting production. Tried limited but like the strategy (when it does not do me in)with production and the ten round limit - may do some L10 next year with my 40 SW carry gun but this year did production all but two matches.

Thank you all for the input and those that may have some feedback and just are not there yet. Will put all this down in writing, create a plan and study and practice - that is how I learn the best - here's to no more FTE.

[bzinbv]

Glad I read this thread, had my first FTE last Saturday in my third match. I'm starting to turn up the speed some now that I feel a little more comfortable with the safety aspects of matches. I was the third shooter in the stage so I didn't tape or reset, and it was a simple "L" shaped stage, very straight forward. At the end of my string the RO said "IF the shooter is done..." trying to nudge me to shoot the obvious steel plate three feet away! Even though I didn't see it since it was low at my feet, had I counted rounds vs. targets I might have picked it up. I did get a "Nice string, except for" from the RO, so I'm improving, but there is a lot to do right. This is addicting though!

[styx]

Did you say that a steel plate was presented at "3 FEET"? If so, you and the course designer should read Rule 10.5.17. According to that rule, if you had shot that target, you'd have been DQ'ed for unsafe gun handling. Sorry for the thread drift.

[bzinbv]

After seeing standing upright it appeared to be about 3 feet away and also about 3 feet in diameter. In reality it was about 8" diameter and I'm sure it was the corect distance away. My point was that I stopped at the end of the "L" shape directly facing the steel, but only saw the normal paper targets on either side of it.

[styx]

I call that "Mistake Magnification" and I can relate with it. My FTE's have always been bathed in a sort of divine light while I'm wondering, "How did I do that?"

[XD Niner]

For me, it is all in the walk through. I go behind all the props etc and count targets.

+1. About half of my FTE's are the result of just not seeing a target on the walkthrough. Making sure my round count equals that of the stage description is a good check. I also find it a great help to go down range and look at the stage from the perspective of the targets. I often find a shooting scheme that is suggested by a different point of view.

The rest of my FTE's are due to not following my plan precisely. The challenge is to maintain your focus throughout the match on every stage.

Pasting different areas of a stage can help as well. Unfortunately, it is not much help if you're up in the first three spots.

[JimmyZip]

For me, it is all in the walk through. I go behind all the props etc and count targets. Then I come up with a plan and don't change anything midstream. I walk it through as many times as I can. Other than that....

+1

[Graham Smith]

Last match of the year at one club, the match director - the same fellow who created the stage - had an FTE on a target that was tucked behind a wall so that you had to lean in a bit to see it. The reason was simple, he didn't have his mind fully on the game - too many other things going on including having to DQ someone one that stage just two people ahead of him.

If you are not fully focused on what you are doing, you will make mistakes. Period.

And don't let the time pressure influence you either. You have to be methodical, you can't just fly off in three directions the second the timer goes off.

Now, if I could just learn to do the same things... <sigh>

[calishootr]

lots of COF work on that 'tunnel vision' that most people feel they get when the buzzer goes off or when they are on the COF. forthe most part they are pretty sraight forward, tho the hardest ones for me are the ones that have 'aspect changes' in them stand in one spot, you see targets 1-3, take a step left now you can see 2-6 but not 1 or 4...rehearsal is good, if your squad mates arnt too wrapped too tight, ask them thier opine on the stage...i get a lot of poeple asking me the 'what would you do' stuff...feedback...

[raz-0]

This has gotten to be a major mental block or something - really need some help. I am just in my second year of shooting. I usually hit what I shoot at and my times are getting better. The problem is with the statement "hit what I shoot at." My biggest problem has been in missing (not engaging) targets in the heat of the battle. If I could fix this I would be on my way to better things. I know it is mental and that in time it should not be as big an issues, but wondering if anyone has some technique that helps with the flow of the COF and making sure all are engaged.

Stage breakdown is worth a lot of points to a new shooter trying to get better. I had a heck of a problem with way too many brain farts while running a stage. Most of them fell into two categories.

1) Not having a complete plan (I'm not even worrying about a GOOD plan here, just complete).

2) having too complex a plan.

3) Forgetting my plan. 

When it comes to FTEs, my biggest problem was losing track of all the targets when making my plan. So the first thing I do is get the count of targets from the written stage briefing. Next thing I do is skip the conga line, and from OUTSIDE the free fire zone, find all the targets.  For me this eliminates any gotchas with counting targets twice while walking through the stage.

Once I've accounted for everything, I then find where to shoot it from. When picking places to shoot, I try to arrange it so that when in spot X, you just shot everything you can see from there and don't have to remember anything about engaging targets you don't see.  Once I got that down, I'd make it slightly more complicated and optimized with things like "shoot everything you can see without changing position". 

The key to a decent plan for me is simple and complete. I don't want to have to remember lots of details about anything when on the timer.  On the clock,  the only answer to "what next" should be "move there", "shoot targets", or "reload".  All the details should be a part of good technique, and you should be practicing so good technique requires no thought and just becomes part of move there or shoot targets.

Then you get to the matter of forgetting your plan. You take too many extra shots, reload as soon as you can, preferably while moving. Your gun jams? Clear it  ASAP and resume plan. Basically, you just have to reduce the problem cases to a few basics for fixing them, and practice the simple solutions. In addition, you gear up so you remedial action doesn't screw you.  The fastest way to learn how to do this and what you need is to have a gun that doesn't run. But if you can figure out how to do it in another manner, i recommend that way.

[sirveyr]

Once I've accounted for everything, I then find where to shoot it from. When picking places to shoot, I try to arrange it so that when in spot X, you just shot everything you can see from there and don't have to remember anything about engaging targets you don't see. Once I got that down, I'd make it slightly more complicated and optimized with things like "shoot everything you can see without changing position".

Exactly. I find that I sometimes get overwhelmed with some large courses. When I find this happening, I scrap the slightly more complicated and optimized plan and return to the basics of just shooting a few targets from a few positions. As others have said, just stick to your plan, not your buddy's plan. If you planned to reload at position #2 and you found that you needed to reload before that, reload at position #2 anyway. Just be sure to stay on your plan. A simple slightly slower plan is much better than a slightly more complicated and optimized plan that goes to shit. I've had lots of those...

[JThompson]

Nobody has a copy of Steve Anderson's Stage Ownership?

JT

[sirveyr]

Nobody has a copy of Steve Anderson's Stage Ownership?

JT

Is this it?

See post #2

[JThompson]

Nobody has a copy of Steve Anderson's Stage Ownership?

JT

Is this it?

See post #2

Ya that's it...

Edited November 2, 2010 by JThompson

[gunshrink]

Yeh I found that last night on my final run of the day through the forums. Then today I tried to get onto his site but no luck as some others have said. Will get to try it out on Thursday night and see what happens. Like the comparison to tunnel vision - never thought about it that way but it makes a lot of sens. In my CCW classes I do an exercise on breaking tunnel vision - maybe that is something I should modify and work with. The other mention rang a bell - most of my FTE's have been close targets that would have been easy A's (which hurts even more). As many have said, see the plan, make it complete and stick to it. No to just take ownership of that process. Again, thank you all.

[Poppa Bear]

My first walk-through I just count shots. If I come up short of the stage briefing then I find what I missed. Now I start planning my reloads if needed, (20 rd LIM) I try to never go over 16 rounds before I reload unless the COF is 18 to 20 rounds.

I will still miss the occasional one, usually because the COF has targets side by side and visible from 2 out of 3 locations. I find it better to find which targets are hidden from each location and what makes it different enough that I can easily pick it out at high speed while it is visible.

If possible I get behind the targets. This is usually accomplished by getting to the range before the match has officially started. Now I can see from the targets POV where it is visible from.

This past week we shot a 10 target slots COF where you could start anywhere inside the shooting area. Most people started in the front left and moved across. I started about 4 feet back and by taking a moderate step to the right opened up two more targets, another step two more targets, final step the last three targets and never had any doubt if I had engaged them or not because ALL other targets were hidden by hard cover. Not wasting time deciding if I had already engaged it or not saved me over two seconds.

[ntphd]

+1 on all the issues related to stage planning. One of the things I hear over and over is to come up with your own plan and stick to it. Sometimes, however, it may be good to compare your plans with others.

A friend of mine had FTE penalties on two targets at a recent match. He had come up with what he thought was a better stage plan than any of the other shooters in our squad. It involved his height, and what he thought was his unique ability to double tap a target at the end of the course from the shooter's box. Indeed, he tapped it well (90%). Unfortunately, he'd been so caught up in thinking he could save time by not running to the end of the course, he forgot about two low targets behind a barricade near the end. (2M + 2M + 2FTE = serious frustration)