15 round magazines in Production

[badchad]

I’ll say I’m for 15 rounds and I really think I’m speaking for the new shooter more than for myself. I already have 5 CR Speed mag pouches on my belt and my reload times are getting fairly sporty.

So why do I think we should change it? In part because shooting 10 rounds out of a magazine that holds a lot more than 10 rounds just seems contrived. In part because I don’t think the rest of the country should bow to California’s gun laws. But the part that makes me care most is that I see a lot of places I would like to engage targets on the move, where with 10 round mags the best thing to do is load, shoot stationary, load, shoot stationary, ad nauseam. And the last reason is that I just don’t think the arguments in favor of maintaining the status quo hold much, if any, water. I’ll cut and past from another thread:

Keep production at 10. If you move it up to 15, then essentially all you are doing in shooting Limited 15 in minor. Production is for new shooters to get their feet wet, so to speak, and reloading is a skill that must be learned to do well in this sport. Even open shooters have to reload (once in a while! ). As for showing up with only 3 mags, well, there are IPSC rules and USPSA rules...Make sure what type match you are shooting...

So what if it’s L15 minor (without a magwell, and without a SA Trigger)? As it is now, it’s what, L10 minor? With a 15 round magazine you still have to learn to reload, and if you really get your rocks off on reloading all the time there is still SS, L10, and revolver.

Production WORKS AS IT IS! 10 rounds, shoot 9mm, 40, 45, make it 15 and you shoot 9, a few 40's and no 45's and yes people do own and shoot all these. I have only two guns in my safe that would allow me to shoot 9mm in production. I have a bunch that I can shoot competitively in .40.

Every division WORKS AS IT IS/WAS! If we kept Single Stack the only division with 7 round magazines that would still WORK JUST FINE! But rules often change with technology and preferences, so we got Open, Limited, Revolver, L10 & Production (the last 2 not being ruled by technology but rather a now defunct gun control law). Pretty much all .40s can hold 15 rounds if need be, and if you really are shooting a .45 in Production you are not trying to be competitive.

Why does everyone have to want to mess with success?

I think because we have seen other organizations (IPSC) mess with success and still have success. And success being a fairly vague term, some of us think we think we might have more success, or at least more fun, with a rule change. And I think in spite of the fact that Production is supposed to be the class for beginners, we observe a whole lot of beginners shooting their Production legal guns in Limited division, probably so they can load more rounds, and/or buy fewer mag pouches/mags.

[DyNo!]

I'd rather be able to use race holsters in production like they do in IPSC.

Edited October 27, 2010 by DyNo!

[JorDanO]

What I love about Production is how crucial stage planning becomes. On most sub 30 round stages 15 rounds would be a lot more like Limited, where you just need to plan your one mag change. I wouldn't mind being able to use a race holster though.

[ima45dv8]

I'll say I'm for 15 rounds and I really think I'm speaking for the new shooter more than for myself. I already have 5 CR Speed mag pouches on my belt and my reload times are getting fairly sporty.

So why do I think we should change it? In part because shooting 10 rounds out of a magazine that holds a lot more than 10 rounds just seems contrived. In part because I don't think the rest of the country should bow to California's gun laws. But the part that makes me care most is that I see a lot of places I would like to engage targets on the move, where with 10 round mags the best thing to do is load, shoot stationary, load, shoot stationary, ad nauseam. And the last reason is that I just don't think the arguments in favor of maintaining the status quo hold much, if any, water.

It is contrived. It's a direct action to incorporate more guns into the division. Increase the allowed capacity to 15 and you immediately force a good number of currently competitive firearms into obsolescence.

No, we're not "bowing to California's gun laws". Dragging fictitious political conspiracies into this doesn't strengthen the argument.

If you can't shoot on the move under the current division parameters because you have to shoot 10 rounds and do a static reload before proceeding, ad nauseum, it's sounds more like a problem with someone not adhering to the 8 rounds max per array rule. Fix that and your problem goes away.

[Aglifter]

IMO, the sport needs production to try to become marketable. Keep it at 10, because reloads are interesting to watch, and stay w. carry style holsters.

Part of IPSC is to further pistolcraft - I think the current production rules do a good job of furthering the areas of concealed carry and duty carry.

Furthermore, sponsors will be able to justify a considerably larger investment if the sport can showcase a major product line.

[badchad]

It is contrived. It's a direct action to incorporate more guns into the division. Increase the allowed capacity to 15 and you immediately force a good number of currently competitive firearms into obsolescence.

Specifically, what "competitive" gun model is being made non-competitive? What percent of shooters at the last Production nationals used that model?

No, we're not "bowing to California's gun laws". Dragging fictitious political conspiracies into this doesn't strengthen the argument.

I'm glad to hear that, and am willing to grant that to you if it means we can declare all appeals to a minority of states restrictive gun laws to be off limits. Fair?

If you can't shoot on the move under the current division parameters because you have to shoot 10 rounds and do a static reload before proceeding, ad nauseum, it's sounds more like a problem with someone not adhering to the 8 rounds max per array rule. Fix that and your problem goes away.

I just don't buy that one. With generalized shooting areas as opposed to shooting boxes, what's an array and what's a position is often gray. Also if you have small poppers at any distance, the prudent move in Production is load and stop, while in Limited and Open it's to shoot on the move. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it is that way.

[smokshwn]

It is contrived. It's a direct action to incorporate more guns into the division. Increase the allowed capacity to 15 and you immediately force a good number of currently competitive firearms into obsolescence.

Specifically, what "competitive" gun model is being made non-competitive? What percent of shooters at the last Production nationals used that model?

To my knowledge any of the .45 caliber guns with the exception of the FNP.45

It doesn't matter how many at Nats used them, what matters is when we are recruiting a new shooter do we have a division that allows them to shoot THEIR gun without the immediate perception that they need to buy something different. Granted we may not be able to do that in all cases but with the ten round limit we maintain a ruleset which keeps several options open.

My real question is that there is no new ground to be plowed here. If you are interested in the arguement there are numerous threads where every conceivable angle has been covered.

Edited October 27, 2010 by smokshwn

[d_striker]

No, we're not "bowing to California's gun laws". Dragging fictitious political conspiracies into this doesn't strengthen the argument.

I wouldn't say he's "dragging fictitious political conspiracies" into this as this is a response that ALWAYS seems to come up regarding this issue.

As a new member to USPSA, I would love to see this sport grow as much as possible. I'm speaking purely from a new shooter perspective as well.

15 rounds in Production would encourage new shooters to compete with minimal expenditure. Most people that own a factory gun own 3 magazines with 15 round capacity. A simple kydex double mag pouch and you now have 45 rounds at your disposal. I think that to currently shoot Production successfully, one must have at least 5 mags on them. Especially if you're a new shooter and performing more towards the D class spectrum. This means purchasing two additional magazines and another double mag pouch.

I wanted to shoot USPSA for the longest time but could never get any of my shooting friends to come with. They were too concerned with all of the necessary equipment needed to successfully shoot Production. I finally just went by myself one day after IPSC changed the rule because I thought that it meant USPSA did too. I showed up with 3 magazines and found out that USPSA was in fact 10 rounds only for Production. I shot Limited Minor instead and have to admit I was a little discouraged competing in the same division as all of the STI's and other 2011's

From a different thread:

I think we've hashed this one out before!

Q: You know what you call a production gun loaded with more than 10 rounds?

A: A limited gun

There's a big difference between 15 rounds and the 22 rounds that my Limited gun can hold. I think that most guys shooting Limited are running 19 round mags at the very minimum which is also still a big difference from 15 regarding stage planning.

What I love about Production is how crucial stage planning becomes. On most sub 30 round stages 15 rounds would be a lot more like Limited, where you just need to plan your one mag change. I wouldn't mind being able to use a race holster though.

Do new shooters really need this added challenge? If you purely enjoy the challenge of stage planning, there is Limited 10. And you can use a race holster.

Edited October 27, 2010 by d_striker

[badchad]

IMO, the sport needs production to try to become marketable. Keep it at 10, because reloads are interesting to watch, and stay w. carry style holsters.

15 rounds still requires a reload on most stages, and even at nationals I don't recall seeing a lot of spectators watching anything.

Part of IPSC is to further pistolcraft - I think the current production rules do a good job of furthering the areas of concealed carry and duty carry.

Irrelevant, everyone I know of that's competitive shoots a full size pistol. I don't recall anyone shooting a Glock 23 at the last nationals.

Furthermore, sponsors will be able to justify a considerably larger investment if the sport can showcase a major product line.

Again, irrelevant. Practically every (if not literally every) Production gun shot/showcased at the last Nationals does/can hold 15 rounds or more.

[ima45dv8]

[badchad]

It doesn't matter how many at Nats used them, what matters is when we are recruiting a new shooter do we have a division that allows them to shoot THEIR gun without the immediate perception that they need to buy something different.

I think what’s shot at Nats matters a lot. It shows what guns are truly “competitive” and what just aren’t. If you are shooting a .45 in Production and you want to be “competitive” you really do need to buy something different, or since you are probably shooting major, you’ll likely be every bit as competitive in L10. Or alternatively if being competitive is of such little importance perhaps we should lower the mag capacity to 6 rounds, just in case some poor slob shows up with a Glock 36, I mean we just wouldn’t what him to feel compelled to buy a new gun…

My real question is that there is no new ground to be plowed here. If you are interested in the arguement there are numerous threads where every conceivable angle has been covered.

I think what’s missing is the realization that practically everyone in Production shoots a 9mm that already holds at least 15 rounds and you aren’t doing the new shooter any favors by making him buy extra mags and mag pouches, nor requiring him to worry about extra reloads when he is first getting started.

[badchad]

I'll take that to mean you can't think of any "competitive" firearms that would be driven into obsolescence. FTR I can’t think of any either.

[ima45dv8]

I'll take that to mean you can't think of any "competitive" firearms that would be driven into obsolescence. FTR I can't think of any either.

Take it as I'm bored with you regularly dragging this tired argument through the parlor.

As Craig already pointed out, there are many more guns used in Production than what you might see at the Nationals, so that "Nationals" yardstick holds no water with me. Most .45s, most Rugers, and many others with a capacity limit of 12-13 rounds would be at a marked disadvantage if 15 rounds were allowed.

[Maksim]

Except this is an FU to every NY, MA, CA gun owner. If someone out of state comes in with 22 round mags, etc, meanwhile, legally they can only shoot x.

By having everyone go by the same rules, it evens the playing field and really tests the competitor.... not about who can buy a production gun with the largest capacity.

Keep it at 10 rounds. If someone really wants to shoot more than 10 rounds, they will go Limited.

I dont buy the whole "you need alot of accessories to play" in uspsa.

If your gun came with 2 mags, is buying 2 more mags, a few cheap mag pouches and a cheap holster that much? It pales in comparison to the amount spent on ammo, match fees and practice.

In every case, if someone introduces you to the sport, they will let you borrow some stuff.

I have at least 4 mags for 80% of my handguns.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Maksim

[badchad]

Take it as I'm bored with you regularly dragging this tired argument through the parlor.

I recall one other discussion I was involved with before I brought it up recently and I think it was you personally who invited the starting of a new thread on the topic. If it's that boring for you I'm not sure why you’re involved.

As Craig already pointed out, there are many more guns used in Production than what you might see at the Nationals, so that yardstick holds no water with me. Most .45s, most Rugers, and many others with a capacity limit of 12-13 rounds would be at a marked disadvantage if 15 rounds were allowed.

.45s are not competitive in Production, they just aren't. The Ruger SR9 holds 17, the Ruger SR40 holds 15 and even the old P89 9mm holds 15. If you shoot a P89 in .40, it makes major so you can be shoot it with little to no additional disadvantage in L10. Though for the life of me I can’t think of a single major match being won by a Ruger in Production.

[badchad]

Except this is an FU to every NY, MA, CA gun owner. If someone out of state comes in with 22 round mags, etc, meanwhile, legally they can only shoot x.

Moderators of this forum have declared that a fictitious political conspiracy. If we were to allow this argument, I can't speak for NY or MA, but I know there are some pretty good Limited and Open shooters from CA in spite of said laws.

I dont buy the whole "you need alot of accessories to play" in uspsa.

I have at least 4 mags for 80% of my handguns.

4 mags would be enough if you could load 15 rounds into them. Just about every "competitive" Production shooter in the USPSA would say you need at least 6 mags, 1 in the gun, 5 on the belt, and that's assuming you don't want any backups.

[ima45dv8]

I recall one other discussion I was involved with before I brought it up recently and I think it was you personally who invited the starting of a new thread on the topic. If it's that boring for you I'm not sure why you're involved.

If that topic wasn't about increasing the magazine capacity in Production, it doesn't apply here. If it did, I may have been hoping you wouldn't take it seriously. Do you have a link?

As Craig already pointed out, there are many more guns used in Production than what you might see at the Nationals, so that yardstick holds no water with me. Most .45s, most Rugers, and many others with a capacity limit of 12-13 rounds would be at a marked disadvantage if 15 rounds were allowed.

.45s are not competitive in Production, they just aren't. The Ruger SR9 holds 17, the Ruger SR40 holds 15 and even the old P89 9mm holds 15. If you shoot a P89 in .40, it makes major so you can be shoot it with little to no additional disadvantage in L10. Though for the life of me I can't think of a single major match being won by a Ruger in Production.

There's the "Major Match yardstick" again.

Sincerely, if you want to load up your Production gun to full capacity, go for it. I think you'll do well. Be sure to mark "Limited Minor" on the sign-up sheet.

[Kyle O]

Production brought me into the sport, and I had a P229 I used. It only holds 13 in a mag, so I would have been dis-advantaged were it a 15 limit, but I did pretty well with it.

I like the 10 round rule, it's the reason I came over to play. I'm glad I decided to try USPSA out, I know I wouldn't have bought a limited gun just to go try it. I just brought what I had.

Now, after a couple of years playing I'm gonna give limited a try, so I am gonna get a Limited gun (with all the accessories )

[badchad]

Do you have a link?

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=115825&view=findpost&p=1314181

There's the "Major Match yardstick" again.

Are you arguing that the “Major Match yardstick” is less accurate than a local match yardstick? Given the right shooter and the right local match a 6 shot revolver can be competitive in Open, but that does not make 6 shot revolvers truly “competitive” in Open class. Or do you disagree?

Sincerely, if you want to load up your Production gun to full capacity, go for it. I think you'll do well. Be sure to mark "Limited Minor" on the sign-up sheet.

Historically minor does not “do well” against major.

[ima45dv8]

Are you arguing that the "Major Match yardstick" is less accurate than a local match yardstick?

In the context of getting people started in the sport, yes. The people who show up for their first matches with a G21 don't have a clue what's being used at the Nationals. They only know what they have on their nightstand.

Sincerely, if you want to load up your Production gun to full capacity, go for it. I think you'll do well. Be sure to mark "Limited Minor" on the sign-up sheet.

Historically minor does not "do well" against major.

True, but your 15 rounds should give you the edge.

Go for it.

[RIIID]

I'll take that to mean you can't think of any "competitive" firearms that would be driven into obsolescence. FTR I can’t think of any either.

Springfield XD 40 only holds 12 rounds is the first one that comes to mind. Not everyone shoots a 9mm in Production, the Nationals only had what 175 competitors as opposed to the thousands of Production shooters in USPSA who don't go to the Nationals.

IPSC went to 15 rounds to stop the arms race and I'll bet there are people in IPSC who want to go to 10 rounds.

Rich

[Nik Habicht]

I just don't buy that one. With generalized shooting areas as opposed to shooting boxes, what's an array and what's a position is often gray. Also if you have small poppers at any distance, the prudent move in Production is load and stop, while in Limited and Open it's to shoot on the move. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it is that way.

Or maybe one should practice hitting on the move? :D

'cause if you're missing, extra bullets are not the answer -- shooting static is.....

I'm blessed to shoot in a place where many stages feature generalized shooting areas, and arrays could be anything from a single target to four, or a mix of steel and paper totaling 10-12 (of course with some or all of those shots available from somewhere easier) --- and finding a place to stick a reload just isn't a problem....

[Nik Habicht]

I'll throw this out really quickly too: Courtesy of the AWB, (which didn't sunset everywhere) there's a solid supply of ten round magazines available. Not all states grandfathered the older full capacity mags; Hawaii has a hard limit of ten, New Jersey has a hard limit of fifteen -- which predates the AWB.

Good luck finding a variety modern, fullsize 9mm guns with 15 round mags available; multiple manufacturers are still making ten rounders available.....

[High Lord Gomer]

When new people show up to our matches, even if they have enough mags to shoot production, I usually encourage them to shoot Limited Minor. It allows them to focus more on the safety than on worrying about reloads. Even people who are decent shooters will not likely do well at their first couple USPSA matches until they really learn the game and what is efficient in this game. By the time they are hooked enough to be concerned with their placement, they are hooked enough to buy a couple more mags to shoot Production.

[D.Hayden]

Even if you justify it by local laws.. it's not just Califoirnia..

Hawaii, Illnois (parts), NY, Mass.. others?

Then why stop at 15? I can hold more than 15.. why can't I fill them up?

You have to stop somewhere. I like having the reloads in Production, just like I like thrm in Single-Stack.