Saiga discussion

[DyNo!]

Whats the big deal with forcing people who want to stay competitive in Tactical to buy a Saiga, Saigas are cheap...

Your correct the shotgun is chaap. But the price of the modifications will rock you.

Nah, my Saiga cost less than $600 to put together, including the cost of the gun - about the same as tricking out a used Remington 1100, and a lot less than a Spaghetti Gun. What makes the Saigas expensive is that you really need to buy two so you have one as a spare parts donor.

Well if you do without the mag well, do not need chokes and do not care if it locks open on the last shot, you can just shoot it stock.........until you get tired of shooting against guns that have these modifications.

FWIW, I spent $755 on mine and I bought what he did except I've got a conventional stock, a polychoke, a dot, and a magazine well.

Edited January 11, 2011 by DyNo!

[gose]

Whats the big deal with forcing people who want to stay competitive in Tactical to buy a Saiga, Saigas are cheap...

Your correct the shotgun is chaap. But the price of the modifications will rock you.

Nah, my Saiga cost less than $600 to put together, including the cost of the gun - about the same as tricking out a used Remington 1100, and a lot less than a Spaghetti Gun. What makes the Saigas expensive is that you really need to buy two so you have one as a spare parts donor.

Well if you do without the mag well, do not need chokes and do not care if it locks open on the last shot, you can just shoot it stock.........until you get tired of shooting against guns that have these modifications.

Well, I assume that even the people that are trying to get Saigas into Tac Optics arent suggesting anything but bone stock Saigas.

[StealthyBlagga]

Whats the big deal with forcing people who want to stay competitive in Tactical to buy a Saiga, Saigas are cheap...

Your correct the shotgun is chaap. But the price of the modifications will rock you.

Nah, my Saiga cost less than $600 to put together, including the cost of the gun - about the same as tricking out a used Remington 1100, and a lot less than a Spaghetti Gun. What makes the Saigas expensive is that you really need to buy two so you have one as a spare parts donor.

Well if you do without the mag well, do not need chokes and do not care if it locks open on the last shot, you can just shoot it stock.........until you get tired of shooting against guns that have these modifications.

A PolyChoke is another $90 - big deal. The magwell, auto bolt hold open etc. really are optional and of dubious value... at best worth only a few % on your match score. My point is that you don't have to spend thousands on boutique gunsmithing to get a functional and competitive Saiga 12 into your hands.

[Alaskapopo]

Whats the big deal with forcing people who want to stay competitive in Tactical to buy a Saiga, Saigas are cheap...

Your correct the shotgun is chaap. But the price of the modifications will rock you.

Nah, my Saiga cost less than $600 to put together, including the cost of the gun - about the same as tricking out a used Remington 1100, and a lot less than a Spaghetti Gun. What makes the Saigas expensive is that you really need to buy two so you have one as a spare parts donor.

Well if you do without the mag well, do not need chokes and do not care if it locks open on the last shot, you can just shoot it stock.........until you get tired of shooting against guns that have these modifications.

A PolyChoke is another $90 - big deal. The magwell, auto bolt hold open etc. really are optional and of dubious value... at best worth only a few % on your match score. My point is that you don't have to spend thousands on boutique gunsmithing to get a functional and competitive Saiga 12 into your hands.

I think the mag well is a huge issue. I can reload my R&R saiga much faster than I ever could when the gun was stock. That is not dubious value to me. I agree if you want a Saiga to be race ready get ready to lay down some serious cash.

Pat

[StealthyBlagga]

A PolyChoke is another $90 - big deal. The magwell, auto bolt hold open etc. really are optional and of dubious value... at best worth only a few % on your match score. My point is that you don't have to spend thousands on boutique gunsmithing to get a functional and competitive Saiga 12 into your hands.

I think the mag well is a huge issue. I can reload my R&R saiga much faster than I ever could when the gun was stock. That is not dubious value to me. I agree if you want a Saiga to be race ready get ready to lay down some serious cash.

Pat

I disagree. Without the magazine well, you can run the MD Arms 20-round drum. For most 3-gun stages, 20 rounds of birdshot will be sufficient to avoid a reload entirely. Sure, you will lose some time on stages over 20 rounds, and potentially on stages requiring an ammo change (mixed slug/birdshot), but I think this "problem" is overstated. I maintain that a super-expensive custom gunsmithed gun is not the only option worth considering, and that in fact a perfectly serviceable and competitive Saiga 12 can be built for a lot less than the price of a stock Benelli.

[SinistralRifleman]

My most expensive Saiga was still only 2/3 the price of the stock Benelli M2 I am using now.

[GentlemanJim]

Saigas don t lock back on an empty mag..newer ones have a bolt lock, but its manual.

For Tac division, most of the high $$ mods and parts are not necessary or allowed

The gun is under $500..do the basic conversion to pistol grip and Trigger group, mod bolt for closed bolt loading, add the stock of your choice and thats it.

High end open guns are a different animal, and you will pay for all the mods and parts

Its exacty like comparing a slightly modified production gun (like an M&P or XD) to a full blown custom open pistol

I dont see this debate as a High dollar arms race

Its more about folks that have trained so long and hard to perfect loading techniques not wanting to lose their edge to a new technology

And about firearms in use now, more or less becoming obsolete .

Both are VERY valid Points of view

Jim

Note all Saiga mods have to be atf 922r compliant

Edited January 12, 2011 by GentlemanJim

[Alaskapopo]

A PolyChoke is another $90 - big deal. The magwell, auto bolt hold open etc. really are optional and of dubious value... at best worth only a few % on your match score. My point is that you don't have to spend thousands on boutique gunsmithing to get a functional and competitive Saiga 12 into your hands.

I think the mag well is a huge issue. I can reload my R&R saiga much faster than I ever could when the gun was stock. That is not dubious value to me. I agree if you want a Saiga to be race ready get ready to lay down some serious cash.

Pat

I disagree. Without the magazine well, you can run the MD Arms 20-round drum. For most 3-gun stages, 20 rounds of birdshot will be sufficient to avoid a reload entirely. Sure, you will lose some time on stages over 20 rounds, and potentially on stages requiring an ammo change (mixed slug/birdshot), but I think this "problem" is overstated. I maintain that a super-expensive custom gunsmithed gun is not the only option worth considering, and that in fact a perfectly serviceable and competitive Saiga 12 can be built for a lot less than the price of a stock Benelli.

A significant percentage of the matches I shoot are under USPSA rules so reload speed is still a big deal for me.

Pat

[Chuck Anderson]

A PolyChoke is another $90 - big deal. The magwell, auto bolt hold open etc. really are optional and of dubious value... at best worth only a few % on your match score. My point is that you don't have to spend thousands on boutique gunsmithing to get a functional and competitive Saiga 12 into your hands.

I think the mag well is a huge issue. I can reload my R&R saiga much faster than I ever could when the gun was stock. That is not dubious value to me. I agree if you want a Saiga to be race ready get ready to lay down some serious cash.

Pat

I disagree. Without the magazine well, you can run the MD Arms 20-round drum. For most 3-gun stages, 20 rounds of birdshot will be sufficient to avoid a reload entirely. Sure, you will lose some time on stages over 20 rounds, and potentially on stages requiring an ammo change (mixed slug/birdshot), but I think this "problem" is overstated. I maintain that a super-expensive custom gunsmithed gun is not the only option worth considering, and that in fact a perfectly serviceable and competitive Saiga 12 can be built for a lot less than the price of a stock Benelli.

So you would allow 20 round drum mags in Tactical as well? Or only Open. Sounds like we're arguing a couple different points here.

Should Saigas be allowed in Tactical?

Do Saigas have a notable advantage over anything else in the Division already?

How much do you need to do to a Saiga to be competetive? In what Division?

Are we limiting this to IMGA Open or USPSA Open or everything?

Bone stock Saigas have always really depressed me. I remember buying my first one for under $300.00. Never malfunctioned, ran awesome. Better than my $1000+ custom 3-Gun shotguns. I hated to get rid of that gun.

Now I have a brand new R and R Targets Saiga. Tell you what, you bring your Saiga with the drum mag, I'll bring my Saiga with a mag well and a truly stupid amount of money thrown at it. We'll see who comes out on top. Most people who say you don't need a magwell, or to spend a bunch of money on a Saiga, haven't shot a really nice one. Believe me, there's a difference.

My $.02. I don't see any reason to allow Saigas in Tactical. None at all. Yes the guns cheap. Fine, run it in Open. There's nothing that says your open guns have to be really expensive. It's clearly a step apart from Tactical SG's and uses box magazines, which, any way you define them are speedloaders. We have threads all the time where people bemoan that there really isn't a difference between Open and Tactical Ops. This would just make it closer. Concerned about the additional expense of making your other guns, Open? Buy a 170mm mag for your Tac Ops gun, and maybe a side red dot if you really want to. There you go, you're an Open competitor.

[SinistralRifleman]

Now I have a brand new R and R Targets Saiga. Tell you what, you bring your Saiga with the drum mag, I'll bring my Saiga with a mag well and a truly stupid amount of money thrown at it. We'll see who comes out on top. Most people who say you don't need a magwell, or to spend a bunch of money on a Saiga, haven't shot a really nice one. Believe me, there's a difference.

My ghetto-blaster spray painted, dremelled on, rusted out POS Saiga let me win trooper at Ironman 2 years in a row. The first time was without a drum, because they didn't exist at the time. Maybe just no one else better was there those years?...good possibility

My expensive race gun saiga I used last year had constant malfunctions related to the magazines and cost me at least 120 seconds in penalties from missed flying clays not counting the extra time racking the bolt on the stage. It worked fine down here in phoenix, but decided to shit itself when I got up to Idaho. I blame myself, if I had used it for more than 3 months prior to the match I probably would have identified those problems before hand and went with my spray painted POS with the rear trunion almost beaten out of it.

I do think you would have beaten me anyway this past year because you're simply a better shooter.

I'll be using a standard rock and lock saiga this year, with a drum because I know it works and I don't think that 3 extra seconds per reload matters much on stages that involve so much other stuff. I'm also bringing my Benelli with me in case the range-demons decide to curse me and cause my Saiga to explode or get sucked into an interdimensional portal (like in Army of Darkness). With my luck I'm pretty sure one of the two would happen if I don't bring the Benelli...if I bring it I'll be cursing the extra weight and never need to use it.

ugh...when is someone going to make something better than the Saiga??? I want something I don't need to throw in the trash every 10,000 rounds or constantly clean up the metal that is peening over because its made from recycled refrigerators and stoves by people eating rats and cigarettes in Siberia that have vodka in the water cooler. That's the problem I have with spending more than $1,000 on these things total. Even if someone made a US made Saiga with proper metallurgy, it would be a better gun.

Anyway the only place I see a mag well being a distinct advantage is on stages with minimal movement that are select load or require more than 30 rounds (one rock and lock change is roughly equivalent to 2 mag well reloads).

Sorry if my rant is a bit extreme. These threads are like hearing guys talk about how hot/awesome your ex-girlfriend is that actually cheated on you with your best friend.

Edited January 13, 2011 by SinistralRifleman

[Alaskapopo]

Now I have a brand new R and R Targets Saiga. Tell you what, you bring your Saiga with the drum mag, I'll bring my Saiga with a mag well and a truly stupid amount of money thrown at it. We'll see who comes out on top. Most people who say you don't need a magwell, or to spend a bunch of money on a Saiga, haven't shot a really nice one. Believe me, there's a difference.

My ghetto-blaster spray painted, dremelled on, rusted out POS Saiga let me win trooper at Ironman 2 years in a row. The first time was without a drum, because they didn't exist at the time. Maybe just no one else better was there those years?...good possibility

My expensive race gun saiga I used last year had constant malfunctions related to the magazines and cost me at least 120 seconds in penalties from missed flying clays not counting the extra time racking the bolt on the stage. It worked fine down here in phoenix, but decided to shit itself when I got up to Idaho. I blame myself, if I had used it for more than 3 months prior to the match I probably would have identified those problems before hand and went with my spray painted POS with the rear trunion almost beaten out of it.

I do think you would have beaten me anyway this past year because you're simply a better shooter.

I'll be using a standard rock and lock saiga this year, with a drum because I know it works and I don't think that 3 extra seconds per reload matters much on stages that involve so much other stuff. I'm also bringing my Benelli with me in case the range-demons decide to curse me and cause my Saiga to explode or get sucked into an interdimensional portal (like in Army of Darkness). With my luck I'm pretty sure one of the two would happen if I don't bring the Benelli...if I bring it I'll be cursing the extra weight and never need to use it.

ugh...when is someone going to make something better than the Saiga??? I want something I don't need to throw in the trash every 10,000 rounds or constantly clean up the metal that is peening over because its made from recycled refrigerators and stoves by people eating rats and cigarettes in Siberia that have vodka in the water cooler. That's the problem I have with spending more than $1,000 on these things total. Even if someone made a US made Saiga with proper metallurgy, it would be a better gun.

Anyway the only place I see a mag well being a distinct advantage is on stages with minimal movement that are select load or require more than 30 rounds (one rock and lock change is roughly equivalent to 2 mag well reloads).

Sorry if my rant is a bit extreme. These threads are like hearing guys talk about how hot/awesome your ex-girlfriend is that actually cheated on you with your best friend.

Wow only 10k. What parts broke that needed replaced. I thought about buying a box stock Saiga for use as parts.

Pat

[SinistralRifleman]

Wow only 10k. What parts broke that needed replaced. I thought about buying a box stock Saiga for use as parts.

Pat

Factory fire control wore out at about 3,000 rounds...replaced with tapco during pistol grip conversion

Recoil springs replaced every couple thousand rounds...not a huge deal.

The bolt hold open gizmo wore out at some time around 4,000 rounds.

Rear trunion rivets were are 45 degree angles by the end. Dust cover engagement at the front was minimal.

surfaces on the bolt and barrel extension peened over every 2,000-3,000 rounds such that they needed to be repolished for the action to cycle smoothly.

Found a random piece of metal floating around inside the gun...not sure what it broke off of, but it clearly came off of the gun. It not being wherever it came from did not appear to impede function. I suspect this debris is what caused my gun to discharge when I turned the safety off once.

Others have reported longer service lives. I think it really depends on when your gun was made and how good that particular assembly and batch of metal was. I have seen some people have the bolt carrier split where the piston threads in; having a spare bolt group is probably a good idea, and a spare set of fire control parts

AKs in general are meant to be disposable guns. They're not designed for depot level repair like american firearms. They get worn out and thrown away; that they last longer than they're supposed to most of the time is a benefit...but even the RPK action was never meant to be a 12 gauge.

Someone needs to build a better mouse trap.

Edited January 13, 2011 by SinistralRifleman

[Charles Bond]

Wow only 10k. What parts broke that needed replaced. I thought about buying a box stock Saiga for use as parts.

Pat

Factory fire control wore out at about 3,000 rounds...replaced with tapco during pistol grip conversion

Recoil springs replaced every couple thousand rounds...not a huge deal.

The bolt hold open gizmo wore out at some time around 4,000 rounds.

Rear trunion rivets were are 45 degree angles by the end. Dust cover engagement at the front was minimal.

surfaces on the bolt and barrel extension peened over every 2,000-3,000 rounds such that they needed to be repolished for the action to cycle smoothly.

Found a random piece of metal floating around inside the gun...not sure what it broke off of, but it clearly came off of the gun. It not being wherever it came from did not appear to impede function. I suspect this debris is what caused my gun to discharge when I turned the safety off once.

Others have reported longer service lives. I think it really depends on when your gun was made and how good that particular assembly and batch of metal was. I have seen some people have the bolt carrier split where the piston threads in; having a spare bolt group is probably a good idea, and a spare set of fire control parts

AKs in general are meant to be disposable guns. They're not designed for depot level repair like american firearms. They get worn out and thrown away; that they last longer than they're supposed to most of the time is a benefit...but even the RPK action was never meant to be a 12 gauge.

Someone needs to build a better mouse trap.

I have a M2. I cleaned it after 5K rounds and sometimes I put oil on the bolt. Every two years I replace the spring in the mag tube because I need something to do.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Charles Bond

[Chuck Anderson]

I have a M2. I cleaned it after 5K rounds and sometimes I put oil on the bolt. Every two years I replace the spring in the mag tube because I need something to do.

Yeah, but it's not just about running. At some point you need to be able to hit a slug target. Not just run an Xrail dry.

[Chuck Anderson]

Now I have a brand new R and R Targets Saiga. Tell you what, you bring your Saiga with the drum mag, I'll bring my Saiga with a mag well and a truly stupid amount of money thrown at it. We'll see who comes out on top. Most people who say you don't need a magwell, or to spend a bunch of money on a Saiga, haven't shot a really nice one. Believe me, there's a difference.

My ghetto-blaster spray painted, dremelled on, rusted out POS Saiga let me win trooper at Ironman 2 years in a row. The first time was without a drum, because they didn't exist at the time. Maybe just no one else better was there those years?...good possibility

My expensive race gun saiga I used last year had constant malfunctions related to the magazines and cost me at least 120 seconds in penalties from missed flying clays not counting the extra time racking the bolt on the stage. It worked fine down here in phoenix, but decided to shit itself when I got up to Idaho. I blame myself, if I had used it for more than 3 months prior to the match I probably would have identified those problems before hand and went with my spray painted POS with the rear trunion almost beaten out of it.

I do think you would have beaten me anyway this past year because you're simply a better shooter.

I'll be using a standard rock and lock saiga this year, with a drum because I know it works and I don't think that 3 extra seconds per reload matters much on stages that involve so much other stuff. I'm also bringing my Benelli with me in case the range-demons decide to curse me and cause my Saiga to explode or get sucked into an interdimensional portal (like in Army of Darkness). With my luck I'm pretty sure one of the two would happen if I don't bring the Benelli...if I bring it I'll be cursing the extra weight and never need to use it.

ugh...when is someone going to make something better than the Saiga??? I want something I don't need to throw in the trash every 10,000 rounds or constantly clean up the metal that is peening over because its made from recycled refrigerators and stoves by people eating rats and cigarettes in Siberia that have vodka in the water cooler. That's the problem I have with spending more than $1,000 on these things total. Even if someone made a US made Saiga with proper metallurgy, it would be a better gun.

Anyway the only place I see a mag well being a distinct advantage is on stages with minimal movement that are select load or require more than 30 rounds (one rock and lock change is roughly equivalent to 2 mag well reloads).

Sorry if my rant is a bit extreme. These threads are like hearing guys talk about how hot/awesome your ex-girlfriend is that actually cheated on you with your best friend.

No problem on the rant. I wonder how many full custom Saigas were at the Ironman in 2008 and 2009. I know the gun that I have now doesn't look anything like the guns I saw from any smith 2 years ago. If it hadn't been for the full custom Saiga I used last year you would have beat me like a rented mule. It was the only gun that ran almost 100 % for me at that match. And the only baubles it had were running buckshot, which I knew didn't run the gun well, but I didn't have time to swap to a different load.

I'm actually okay with this thing only lasting 10K rounds. If I run it like my normal guages that will last at least 5 years for me. Although I probably will shoot it a bit more, just because it's a blast.

I'm 2 for 3 on Saigas that run from Robbie. The one in the middle wouldn't run at all for me, but I have a suspision it was more magazine/ammo related than the gun. The current one does the same thing with the same ammo. But it chews up everything else from 2 3/4 dram 1 oz to 3 1/4 dram 1 1/8 oz. Tried it with Rio, Fiocchi, Remington Gun Club, Centurion, Winchester and Federal. Ran everything except the Win AA's that every other gun I have loves. Oh well, I guess my ammo bill just got cheaper.

Do you have to put thousands of bucks into a Saiga to make it through a match, nope. But I can make it through the Ironman with my Stevens 311A also. Doesn't mean I'm gonna try. Can the gun be substantially improved by that investment, my experience you bet. Can the wrong smith F it up? Yep, just like any other gun.

That's the bottom line for me. If you're going to allow them in tactical what do you allow for mods? Anything but an optic and a comp? If so, the argument that it's a $400.00 gun is kind of invalid. It won't be people, many anyway, competing with that box stock Saiga. Now it's $2000.00 custom Tactial Saigas along with everything else. We'd end up having to bring in Production 3-Gun and I just don't see that happening.

[3-Gun Sweden]

No limits in Open thanks, or should we forbid F1 as they're too fast?

At least one class should be open, as in open.

(We don't have tactical here)

Edited January 13, 2011 by 3-Gun Sweden

[Chuck Anderson]

No limits thanks, or should we forbid F1 as they're too fast?

No but that's what Open is for.

[3-Gun Sweden]

No but that's what Open is for.

Exactly.

[Charles Bond]

I have a M2. I cleaned it after 5K rounds and sometimes I put oil on the bolt. Every two years I replace the spring in the mag tube because I need something to do.

Yeah, but it's not just about running. At some point you need to be able to hit a slug target. Not just run an Xrail dry.

Ok dude. I am ready for the throw down.

I can unload the chamber of my xrail M2 and insert slugs or buck at will and feed the tube so the next on or two or three are as well. Explain to the boys and girls how you do that with the shotgun from the evil empire.

[GentlemanJim]

I have a M2. I cleaned it after 5K rounds and sometimes I put oil on the bolt. Every two years I replace the spring in the mag tube because I need something to do.

Yeah, but it's not just about running. At some point you need to be able to hit a slug target. Not just run an Xrail dry.

Ok dude. I am ready for the throw down.

I can unload the chamber of my xrail M2 and insert slugs or buck at will and feed the tube so the next on or two or three are as well. Explain to the boys and girls how you do that with the shotgun from the evil empire.

Well

We can start with 21 up and ready,In 2 seconds load 20 slugs...shoot as many as we need, in two more seconds be back fully loaded with 20 more birds or buck... we just leave a trail of mags behind us

how long does it take to load 20 rnds in a X rail?

Jim

[Chuck Anderson]

I have a M2. I cleaned it after 5K rounds and sometimes I put oil on the bolt. Every two years I replace the spring in the mag tube because I need something to do.

Yeah, but it's not just about running. At some point you need to be able to hit a slug target. Not just run an Xrail dry.

Ok dude. I am ready for the throw down.

I can unload the chamber of my xrail M2 and insert slugs or buck at will and feed the tube so the next on or two or three are as well. Explain to the boys and girls how you do that with the shotgun from the evil empire.

Well I think Jim explained that fairly nicely. Actually what I was referring to was the slug stage at the Pan Am. The one with, if it was explained to me properly, 7 Larue targets to be engaged with slug? The point I was making is that the Saiga is not just quick to load, but can make the hits quickly and very easily. I know at the Ironman there were a number of steel slug targets at 50 ish yards that you needed to double tap. I was hitting the second round on target about the time my first hull was hitting the dirt.

[outerlimits]

No such thing as open in uspsa

[Clint U66]

I like the saiga.

[mpeltier]

I certainly feel the saiga should be restricted to open division. That is the type of weapon that divisions intent is all about.

When we first started to see them at our club we had no real worry about them bieng competitive in Tac-optic as they did not seem very reliable. We post our scores heads up so it is easy to see how they are doing against those of us with traditional shotguns. Well as they worked the bugs out, these saigas have started to post some pretty impressive scores. These same guys with a traditional shotgun generally finish much lower in the standings. In this case i think the arrow makes a better indian to some extent.

These same guys are shooting Tac-optic legal pistol and rifle, and simply checking the Open box on the score sheets due to the saiga. So it is at our club a heads up competition to an extent. Some of our course designers have chosen to take some (perhaps all) of the saiga's advantage away with course design. If you allow saigas in tac-optic, I think you would see more of this at bigger venues, which the saiga shooters may not like.

[dmshozer1]

I have a M2. I cleaned it after 5K rounds and sometimes I put oil on the bolt. Every two years I replace the spring in the mag tube because I need something to do.

Yeah, but it's not just about running. At some point you need to be able to hit a slug target. Not just run an Xrail dry.

Ok dude. I am ready for the throw down.

I can unload the chamber of my xrail M2 and insert slugs or buck at will and feed the tube so the next on or two or three are as well. Explain to the boys and girls how you do that with the shotgun from the evil empire.

That is true but that might be the only stage that requires the mix of shells.

The rest of the match, unless you can load eight in 5 sec. or less, you will be playing catch up.