Monday morning rules question

[Bigpops]

This question came up this weekend and we all had mixed feelings and answers.

Scenario:

A competitor is waiting for their turn to shoot, standing off to the side of the stage, “air-gunning“ draws and target shots. During the motion of the draw the competitor’s jacket sleeve catches the gun and lifts it to the point of ALMOST coming completely out of the holster. Had the person not felt it and caught the gun it would have fallen out. (1 inch of the muzzle remained in the holster)

So here is the question;

1. Is this a DQ offence – unsafe gun handling?

If so, would the competitor be better off letting the gun fall to the ground and calling a RO over to clear and re-holster? NOTE: We know it’s never a good idea to let a gun hit the ground….this is more for rule clarification.

[RogerT]

Short answer: No.

Outside the course of fire, a dropped gun is not an DQ, unless the shooter picks it up by himself.

Stopping a gun from falling out of the holster can not be "unsafe gunhandling", and the shooter did not draw (or almost draw) the gun from the holster since he/she did not hold the gun in his/her hand.

EDIT: I play with a different rule set.... IPSC rules defines "Draw" a bit differently:

Draw (Drawing): The act of removing a handgun from it’s holster. A draw is deemed to have ended when the handgun has cleared the holster.

Edited September 14, 2010 by RogerT

[Sherwyn]

This question came up this weekend and we all had mixed feelings and answers.

Scenario:

A competitor is waiting for their turn to shoot, standing off to the side of the stage, "air-gunning" draws and target shots. During the motion of the draw the competitor's jacket sleeve catches the gun and lifts it to the point of ALMOST coming completely out of the holster. Had the person not felt it and caught the gun it would have fallen out. (1 inch of the muzzle remained in the holster)

So here is the question;

1. Is this a DQ offence – unsafe gun handling?

If so, would the competitor be better off letting the gun fall to the ground and calling a RO over to clear and re-holster? NOTE: We know it's never a good idea to let a gun hit the ground….this is more for rule clarification.

Yes - if the trigger is exposed and compeitior is holding / trapping gun - it is handling outside course of fire...DQ

Probably been covered here somewhere - there is NROI ruling regarding this situation

[Seth]

This is the 2nd time I've come across this one lately.... I'd have to say that its a drawn gun:

Draw . . . . . . . . . . . . .The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition • 57

So then its a 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer.

[Bigpops]

I tried a search before I posted this question but the search feature has not worked so well as of late. I too remember a discussion like this but could not remember the details.

I see we have different views again.

Thanks!

[Seth]

Steve,

The discussion was actually at Fredericksburg....

s.

[G-ManBart]

This question came up this weekend and we all had mixed feelings and answers.

Scenario:

A competitor is waiting for their turn to shoot, standing off to the side of the stage, "air-gunning" draws and target shots. During the motion of the draw the competitor's jacket sleeve catches the gun and lifts it to the point of ALMOST coming completely out of the holster. Had the person not felt it and caught the gun it would have fallen out. (1 inch of the muzzle remained in the holster)

So here is the question;

1. Is this a DQ offence – unsafe gun handling?

If so, would the competitor be better off letting the gun fall to the ground and calling a RO over to clear and re-holster? NOTE: We know it's never a good idea to let a gun hit the ground….this is more for rule clarification.

Yes - if the trigger is exposed and compeitior is holding / trapping gun - it is handling outside course of fire...DQ

Probably been covered here somewhere - there is NROI ruling regarding this situation

That begs the question of what happens if the shooter is just standing there and someone else hits their gun (somehow) and causes it to wind up in the same position...the shooter never touched it, and we're going to DQ them for unsafe gun handling?

[mhop]

This question came up this weekend and we all had mixed feelings and answers.

Scenario:

A competitor is waiting for their turn to shoot, standing off to the side of the stage, "air-gunning" draws and target shots. During the motion of the draw the competitor's jacket sleeve catches the gun and lifts it to the point of ALMOST coming completely out of the holster. Had the person not felt it and caught the gun it would have fallen out. (1 inch of the muzzle remained in the holster)

So here is the question;

1. Is this a DQ offence – unsafe gun handling?

If so, would the competitor be better off letting the gun fall to the ground and calling a RO over to clear and re-holster? NOTE: We know it's never a good idea to let a gun hit the ground….this is more for rule clarification.

Yes - if the trigger is exposed and compeitior is holding / trapping gun - it is handling outside course of fire...DQ

Probably been covered here somewhere - there is NROI ruling regarding this situation

That begs the question of what happens if the shooter is just standing there and someone else hits their gun (somehow) and causes it to wind up in the same position...the shooter never touched it, and we're going to DQ them for unsafe gun handling?

trapping the gun is the problem not knocking it out of the holster

[lcs]

This question came up this weekend and we all had mixed feelings and answers.

Scenario:

A competitor is waiting for their turn to shoot, standing off to the side of the stage, "air-gunning" draws and target shots. During the motion of the draw the competitor's jacket sleeve catches the gun and lifts it to the point of ALMOST coming completely out of the holster. Had the person not felt it and caught the gun it would have fallen out. (1 inch of the muzzle remained in the holster)

So here is the question;

1. Is this a DQ offence – unsafe gun handling?

If so, would the competitor be better off letting the gun fall to the ground and calling a RO over to clear and re-holster? NOTE: We know it's never a good idea to let a gun hit the ground….this is more for rule clarification.

Yes - if the trigger is exposed and compeitior is holding / trapping gun - it is handling outside course of fire...DQ

Probably been covered here somewhere - there is NROI ruling regarding this situation

That begs the question of what happens if the shooter is just standing there and someone else hits their gun (somehow) and causes it to wind up in the same position...the shooter never touched it, and we're going to DQ them for unsafe gun handling?

(1) IF the shooter NEVER touches the gun--no harm, no foul and no DQ

(2) IF someone else knocks your gun loose and the shooter traps it, or catches the gun---DQ. The rules are pretty clear.

[Rolex]

YUP! let it-the gun-fall on the ground, and have a RO pick it up for you!

[Nik Habicht]

Scenario as presented -- I'm unconcerned about the air-gunning. Shooter's jacket sleeve catches the gun and lifts it out of the holster -- all good so far, no dq -- as I'm not reading that as a "draw" but as an unintentional bump.

Now, when the shooters traps the gun, and reholsters -- at some point there we have a shooter handling the unholstered gun outside a safety area/not under RO supervision/direction, or we have the shooter catching a dropped gun. I'd be calling the RM before citing a rule, to make sure the right call got made -- but it's a dq under one of those -- I suspect the former....

[Tom D]

In the rule book look under definations, "droped gun" you will find this;

Dropped Gun . . . . . . . . . . .(during the course of fire) Acondition in which a competitor

loses control of their handgun. Loss of control

does not require the handgun to land on the ground or

other range surface or prop. It occurs anytime the

handgun is no longer in control of either hand, even if

it is trapped against part of the body or caught in midair.

the last sentence is the reason it is a DQ.

Tom

[Brazos Custom]

I would slowly and gently continue to "drop" the gun until it was on the ground and then ask for an RO to pick it up.

[G-ManBart]

In the rule book look under definations, "droped gun" you will find this;

Dropped Gun . . . . . . . . . . .(during the course of fire) Acondition in which a competitor

loses control of their handgun. Loss of control

does not require the handgun to land on the ground or

other range surface or prop. It occurs anytime the

handgun is no longer in control of either hand, even if

it is trapped against part of the body or caught in midair.

the last sentence is the reason it is a DQ.

Tom

The scenario presented wasn't "during the course of fire" so that definition doesn't apply. R,

[BayouSlide]

If it falls out of a holster due to a bump and hits the ground, RO picks it up...no foul.

However, if the competitor is trying to trap it and it has cleared the holster to the point the competitor has access to the trigger, then 10.5.1 would seem to apply ( "Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area

or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer.")

Curtis

[Singlestack]

If it falls out of a holster due to a bump and hits the ground, RO picks it up...no foul.

However, if the competitor is trying to trap it and it has cleared the holster to the point the competitor has access to the trigger, then 10.5.1 would seem to apply ( "Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area

or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer.")

Curtis

+1

[Bigpops]

I would slowly and gently continue to "drop" the gun until it was on the ground and then ask for an RO to pick it up.

[Bigpops]

If it falls out of a holster due to a bump and hits the ground, RO picks it up...no foul.

However, if the competitor is trying to trap it and it has cleared the holster to the point the competitor has access to the trigger, then 10.5.1 would seem to apply ( "Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area

or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer.")

Curtis

+1

This is sort of the direction I was heading. The scenerio I gave was not "during the course of fire" so the rules you quoted seem to apply.

So it appears its better to let your gun hit the ground, even during an accidental situation. This just seems odd but the right thing to do.

Thanks for the input!

[juan]

was the intent of 10.5.1 to keep people from handling their gun outside a safe area or without a ro's supervision.

this case the shooter had no intention of handling his gun.

this is not 1st degree gun handling, but second degree handling without intent.

[BayouSlide]

Yes, it seems counterintuitive but if you let it fall (outside the course of fire) you're always in the clear. Some people may wince at the idea of their plated blaster hitting the gravel, so they could save the pistol and take a DQ. I can recall this being discussed on the forum before.

The scarier scenario would be people trying to trap a loaded gun that leaves their hand during the COF. They are already going to be DQed, and in trying to make the save they risk causing an even more dangerous incident.

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate tipos typos!

Edited September 13, 2010 by BayouSlide

[BayouSlide]

was the intent of 10.5.1 to keep people from handling their gun outside a safe area or without a ro's supervision.

this case the shooter had no intention of handling his gun.

this is not 1st degree gun handling, but second degree handling without intent.

Unfortunately, there are no exceptions listed for "intention" in the rulebook or degrees in breaking rules...rules are like glass, they can't be bent, only broken.

Curtis

Edited September 13, 2010 by BayouSlide

[Seth]

was the intent of 10.5.1 to keep people from handling their gun outside a safe area or without a ro's supervision.

this case the shooter had no intention of handling his gun.

this is not 1st degree gun handling, but second degree handling without intent.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter.

The rules have to be applied equally and equitably for them to work. I'd argue that the shooter lost control of the handgun as soon as the trigger was accessible.

[juan]

I understand the rules. I was trying to make a play on our legal system.

I dont know if I could not stop myself from trying to stop the gun from falling.

maybe all those years in the Marine Corps where if your gun hits the deck you are going to pay dearly.

[Seth]

I realize that. I'm in the same boat. I'd rather take an afternoon off to paste and not shoot (DQ) than let a pricey blaster touch the ground.

[Corey]

so i just need to re-program my brain that when my $1K gun goes tumbling to the ground, i dont reach to save my investment, but let it hit the deck instead.

Note to self: DONT DROP GUN OUT OF HOLSTER!!