Getting the sights to settle on target

[sslav]

Here is what I see when I am shooting - First sights lift up from the POA. Then they come back down and dip past the POA. Lift up a little higher than the POA and then finally settle on the POA. If I wait for the sights to completely settle I can effortlessly shoot a pretty tight group at 10 yards. But my splits are in .3-.35 range. If I try to go faster than that the group starts spreading vertically.

What is the correct approach here? Should I:

A. Strive to eliminate the "oscillation"? If so do I need to consciously adjust my grip/stance to do this or do I simply continue practicing and have my subconscious brain work it out with my body?

B. Just go with it and learn to time my shots as the sights pass over the POA?

Edited August 13, 2010 by sslav

[Mark R]

Here is what I see when I am shooting - First sights lift up from the POA. Then they come back down and dip past the POA. Lift up a little higher than the POA and then finally settle on the POA. If I wait for the sights to completely settle I can effortlessly shoot a pretty tight group at 10 yards. But my splits are in .3-.35 range. If I try to go faster than that the group starts spreading vertically.

What is the correct approach here? Should I:

A. Strive to eliminate the "oscillation"? If so do I need to consciously adjust my grip/stance to do this or do I simply continue practicing and have my subconscious brain work it out with my body?

B. Just go with it and learn to time my shots as the sights pass over the POA?

Have you tried changing out the recoil spring for a lighter one. A Heavy (usually stock) spring will cause the slide to slam forward harder causing the gun to dip past the POA. Just sayin'

[sslav]

Have you tried changing out the recoil spring for a lighter one. A Heavy (usually stock) spring will cause the slide to slam forward harder causing the gun to dip past the POA. Just sayin'

I am running a 13LB spring on a G-35 - shooting minor (around 135PF)

[hf219]

Slav, go down in spring weight until you have a failure to feed, then come back up one size. Try an 11lb ismi. Your shooting 135 pf out of a G35? Either way a 13 lb ismi is what I ran in my G35 with 170 pf loads. Definately need to go lower. If you dont have one, Ill check I might still have an 11 lb spring for my 35 in my spare parts bin. If so, Ill bring it with me to Old Bridge. Ill check and get back with you. H!

Edited August 13, 2010 by hf219

[Mark R]

I have a G35 and I run a 12 lb spring...could go 11, but haven't tried one yet. I also run a 12 lb in a G22...nice for minor loads.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Mark R

[sslav]

Slav, go down in spring weight until you have a failure to feed, then come back up one size. Try an 11lb ismi. Your shooting 135 pf out of a G35? Either way a 13 lb ismi is what I ran in my G35 with 170 pf loads. Definately need to go lower. If you dont have one, Ill check I might still have an 11 lb spring for my 35 in my spare parts bin. If so, Ill bring it with me to Old Bridge. Ill check and get back with you. H!

I appreciate the advice and the offer and I will certainly try it, but it would seem that this is something I should be able to handle through technique and not via equipment.

[G-ManBart]

What is the correct approach here? Should I:

A. Strive to eliminate the "oscillation"? If so do I need to consciously adjust my grip/stance to do this or do I simply continue practicing and have my subconscious brain work it out with my body?

B. Just go with it and learn to time my shots as the sights pass over the POA?

Neither one really.

You can eliminate some oscillation (wobble zone), but not all. You probably want to work on timing drills so that the gun resets where you want it to. Still, you'll have some wobble even when the gun resets right back to the POA.

Trying to time the shots is possibly the worst option of all. It leads to accelerating the trigger (jerking) and the low left (for a righty) hits so many people complain about. A proper trigger press...smooth, never totally stopping, until the shot breaks, is the most important thing in shooting tight groups.

If you can borrow one, put a laser on your gun, and sight on a 25yd target. Then compare how little the laser's dot moves on the actual target, with how much the irons sights appear to move when you take a sight picture. The visual wobble is always way, way worse looking than it really is (you'll see the laser barely moving off the intended POI). R,

[BlackBuzzard]

Effortlessly drilling the A zone bill drill style with A's at 0.3 splits aint bad - from 10 yds in production. A's are so much more valuable than C's anyway.

Keep the A shots with 0.3 splits and focus more on faster and snappy transitions perhaps?

Clamping down real hard with weak hand can help quicken sight picture recovery in my experience......but such forceful grip with weak hand does not come natural to me without real conscious effort.

BB

[Dan Burwell]

Here is what I see when I am shooting - First sights lift up from the POA. Then they come back down and dip past the POA. Lift up a little higher than the POA and then finally settle on the POA. If I wait for the sights to completely settle I can effortlessly shoot a pretty tight group at 10 yards. But my splits are in .3-.35 range. If I try to go faster than that the group starts spreading vertically.

What is the correct approach here? Should I:

A. Strive to eliminate the "oscillation"? If so do I need to consciously adjust my grip/stance to do this or do I simply continue practicing and have my subconscious brain work it out with my body?

B. Just go with it and learn to time my shots as the sights pass over the POA?

I use both, depenending on the target, your goal is to hit two A's as quickly as possible, so if it is a 10yd open target my sight doesn't need to stop to get an A hit. Now if it is a 10yd with a no shoot on it my sight needs to stop, if I want a good hit.

The good news is you are seeing your sights now you just need to keep playing with what you need to see to make the hits on various targets at various distances. This will give you the confidence that you shots will impact where you want them to. I recently found out I have no idea what I need to see on a 3yd target, it lead to too many extra shots as I just didn't have the confidence that my rounds were going where I wanted them to.

Basically, every target has it's acceptable front sight movement and approprite trigger control, figuring this out and applying it correctly is the key to successful shooting.

[CAB33]

Seeing settled sights with splits in the .30"s is right on par with the best.

This is stuff I learned from Manny...

He calls them stoppers(sight settles).

Then there are floaters, sight does not settle and is still in motion.

I would suggest working on getting comfortable shooting floaters(splits in the low to mid .20's)

on open targets 10 yards and in.

Then you can work on transitioning between the two.

Set up a 10 yard open target and a 15 yard partial and work on transitioning between the two.

[Corey]

I appreciate the advice and the offer and I will certainly try it, but it would seem that this is something I should be able to handle through technique and not via equipment.

Why not? If I can make a minor equipment change like a spring and not have to change anything about me or my form I will...

[Chris iliff]

Corey is right to me also. What sport would you play that you wouldn't tune your equipment for you? Do the spring thing.

[38supPat]

Both answers are in their own way correct. You should experiment with both your technique and tuning with springs. On a 1911 there a few more things you can tweak that will affect the timing. On a Glock you are more limited, particularly in Production. But you should also work on technique. A lot can be learned both ways.

If you always look for an equipment answer you will always ask an equipment question, if you always look for a technique answer you will always ask a technique question. Don't look for an answer, just ask the question and see what you get.

[sslav]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I will experiment with varous approaches and see where that gets me.

[Nik Habicht]

Slav,

I'm just wondering if in "getting the sights to settle" you aren't introducing more motion -- by perhaps trying to force it.....

What would happen if you experimented with simply allowing the sights to settle? Might be helpful to spend a little time shooting st the berm only, with the goal being to watch the sights, and to see what happens. Think of the entire berm as your A-zone....

[Flexmoney]

I appreciate the advice and the offer and I will certainly try it, but it would seem that this is something I should be able to handle through technique and not via equipment.

Yes.

Work with Burkett's Timing Drills.

Hard to say about your grip and stance without seeing it. Seems like a good place to look. You might also be overly tense.

[Flexmoney]

I appreciate the advice and the offer and I will certainly try it, but it would seem that this is something I should be able to handle through technique and not via equipment.

Why not? If I can make a minor equipment change like a spring and not have to change anything about me or my form I will...

Because your form will not get attended to...and your progress will halt at some point. IMHO

[ETA] I've always run a full power spring in my non-Open Glocks. For an 8y Bill Drill with fist sized groups, splits in the mid-teens would be the norm.

[ck1]

FWIW, I started using a hand-grip exerciser recently (along with a weighted training mag for dry-fire) and have already noticed an improvement seeing my sights come back on target after only a little over a week just leaving it around the house and just picking it up a few times a day... I'm thinking a little improved weak-hand strength goes a long long way as I shot a match this weekend and I actually found that while I was controlling the gun much better shot to shot and tracking my sights better than ever, I was also shooting much more relaxed overall, and while time seemed to slow-down for me seeing the sightslift and come back on target, my splits were faster and I was getting good hits. Since without any conscious effort my normal relaxed/static weak-hand grip is now stronger, it seems to be allowing me to pay more focused attention to the sights coming back while the gun behaves itself better for me.

That Manny stuff about the "Stoppers" and "Floaters" is priceless, finally seeing that regularly means my work is starting to pay off. Knowing where the sights are at exactly depends on the target, tougher ones means stopping them, fast doubles and triples can happen with less patience on the easier ones.

Edited August 16, 2010 by ck1

[MoNsTeR]

I appreciate the advice and the offer and I will certainly try it, but it would seem that this is something I should be able to handle through technique and not via equipment.

Why not? If I can make a minor equipment change like a spring and not have to change anything about me or my form I will...

Because your form will not get attended to...and your progress will halt at some point. IMHO

[ETA] I've always run a full power spring in my non-Open Glocks. For an 8y Bill Drill with fist sized groups, splits in the mid-teens would be the norm.

How is that possible? I can't even rip shots into the backstop faster than .16, and that's difficult.

Back to the general topic, I'm wondering how well this advice applies to Open. When the dot is oscillating past where you want it to be it doesn't appear as a point but as a line, like a sparkler in the dark. Especially as I speed up it becomes difficult to even know where it's pointing at a given instant.

[benos]

The lightest spring that gives 100% function is good advice.

Once you're settled there, then experiment with various grip tensions to fine tune the "sight stopping."

be

[sslav]

The lightest spring that gives 100% function is good advice.

Once you're settled there, then experiment with various grip tensions to fine tune the "sight stopping."

be

Thanks Brian. I'll start playing around with springs after I shoot Area 8.

[Flexmoney]

How is that possible? I can't even rip shots into the backstop faster than .16, and that's difficult.

For many, tension in the strong hand (trying to 'control' recoil) is a limiting factor with how fast they can work the trigger.