Chrono Stage

[D.Hayden]

I'm sure it's here somewhere, but searching on "chrono stage" didn't get me much.

How is the Major load determined?

Average of x shots? Or all must be above PF165?

I want to make sure I leave enough room, but with some of the flucutations I'm still getting, 1 in 10 could be under.

Thanks, Dave

[Nik Habicht]

Dave,

They'll pull 8 rounds out of a mag or an ammo box. One bullet gets pulled and weighed on a scale. When you get to the chrono stage, they'll shoot three rounds out of your gun and average the velocity to determine power factor. If you don't make it, they'll shoot rounds 4, 5, and 6 one round at a time and recalculate. If you still don't make it, you have choice for round seven --- they can either shoot it over the chrono, or pull and weigh the head and recalculate. If at any time your average is over the declared power factor --- this could be as early as after the first three rounds for most people --- you pass.

If the match staff suspects you of having two different batches of ammo --- they may request to re-chrono you. This rarely happens --- but if you declare and make major and all of a sudden leave all your poppers standing even though a ding is heard...

[D.Hayden]

Nik, thank you for that explanation...

[Vince Pinto]

Berkim,

Here is the actual procedure from the January 2004 IPSC Handgun Rulebook:

5.6.3 Ammunition Testing Procedure

5.6.3.1 Ammunition must be tested using the competitor's handgun.

5.6.3.2 An initial 8 sample rounds for the chronograph test will be drawn from each competitor at a time and place determined by Match Officials, who may require additional tests of a competitor’s ammunition at any time during the match.

5.6.3.3 From the 8 sample rounds drawn by Match Officials, 1 bullet is weighed to determine the actual bullet weight, and 3 are fired over the chronograph. In the absence of a bullet puller and scales, the competitor's declared bullet weight will be used.

5.6.3.4 Power factor is calculated using the bullet weight and the average velocity of the 3 rounds fired, according to the following formula:

.......... Power Factor = bullet weight (grains) x average velocity (feet per second) (divided by) 1000

5.6.3.5 If the resultant power factor fails to meet the declared power factor floor, another 3 rounds will be fired over the chronograph. The power factor will be recalculated using the bullet weight and the average velocity of the 3 highest velocity rounds from the 6 rounds fired.

5.6.3.6 If the power factor is still insufficient, the competitor may elect to have his final bullet:

...... a. Weighed and, if heavier than the first bullet, the power factor calculation in Rule 5.6.3.5 will be recalculated using the heavier bullet weight, or

...... b. Fired over the chronograph and the power factor recalculated using the first bullet weight, and the average velocity of the 3 highest velocity rounds from the 7 rounds fired.

5.6.3.7 If the resultant power factor fails to meet the Major power factor floor of the relevant Division, the competitor's entire match scores will be recalculated as Minor, if achieved.

5.6.3.8 If the resultant power factor fails to meet the minimum power factor floor for the relevant Division, the competitor may continue shooting the match, but not for score or match recognition.

5.6.3.9 If a competitor's ammunition is retested, or if any authorized replacement ammunition is used, and different power factors are recorded when tested according to these rules, the lower power factor must be applied to score all courses of fire, including those already completed by the competitor.

5.6.3.10 The scores of a competitor who, for any reason, fails to present his firearm for testing at the designated time and location and/or who fails to provide sample rounds for testing whenever requested by a match official, will be removed from the match results.

5.6.3.11 If the Range Master deems that a match chronograph has become inoperative, and further testing of competitor’s ammunition is not possible, the power factors of competitors which have been successfully tested will stand, and the “Major” or “Minor” power factors declared by all other competitors who have not been tested will be accepted without challenge, subject to any applicable Division requirements (see Appendices).

[D.Hayden]

Thanks Vince, I didn't see it in the TOC, but had I looked in the Index... Doh!

[ErikW]

BerKim, want to learn more by working the chrono stage at your section championship match?

[chp5]

On a related point, I liked how the chrono was run at the Tenn state match in 2003. There, the chrono stage was right next to the classifier stage. Once you fired the classifier, you walked directly over to the chrono and the chrono RO got to choose the rounds to be tested from a mag on your belt.

This helped to prevent any potential gamesmanship of giving the RO any "special" rounds some shooters may have in their bag.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Some matches in the Philippines go even one better - they make the chrono as part of a regular stage.

For example, the first three shots in a stage might force you to fire at three poppers which are only ever visible from the seated starting position through a small port, where the ingenious match organisers have hidden sky screens to measure your bullet velocity. After you've finished shooting and the RO has given the "Range Clear" command, he grabs another 5 rounds off you for weighing and secondary testing, in case the first 3 rounds didn't make the grade.

As 90% of competitors make the grade with the first 3 bullets (plus one they quickly weigh while targets are being reset), this saves a lot of time (and a few bullets to boot). As an added benefit, this method effectively stops people using "low power" rounds for actual shooting and "high power" rounds for chrono.

They didn't invent IPSC shooting in the Philippines, but they've definitely helped evolve it into a fine art.

[D.Hayden]

BerKim, want to learn more by working the chrono stage at your section championship match?

Erik, I don't even know what that [section championship] is... GB?

I'll do anything to help considering my limited capabilities.

[Julien Boit]

Vince:

That's a pretty ggod way to tests ammos.

This will avoid some shooters using two types of ammo.

I had seen too many times shooters required to go to the chrono stage any time they wanted with their guns and ammo.

Of course, that's when people grab that red ammo box in the bottom of their bags to make major

But I have a question about it :

How to be sure that the shooter will not change his ammo before THIS stage ?

If he sees that setup, He will immediately think about a chrono stage and then switch to the "red box".

Do they consider another test during the match ?

[tightloop]

Julian

You will never catch all those who aspire to not play by the rules. They have made an art form out of gaming the chrony stage. All you can do is make it hard for them and move on. I cannot think of a single time in a major match that someone who was suspected of manipulating the chrony stage won HOA.

I think it is a very small percentage of total shooters who try to avoid playing within the rules.

[Yoda]

Of course, that's when people grab that red ammo box in the bottom of their bags to make major 

But I have a question about it :

How to be sure that the shooter will not change his ammo before THIS stage ?

If he sees that setup, He will immediately think about a chrono stage and then switch to the "red box".

Do they consider another test during the match ?

Julian,

overhere (+ on the larger matches I've been) ammo is picked at random from the magazines on the belt of the competitor after he/she has finished a stage. This prevents them from presenting ammo from the Red Box. Which magazine(s) the rounds come from are the choice of the collecting Official, preferrably from two magazines including the one used during the stage. The rounds go in a sealed envelope to the chrono, and the competitor will report there later during the match with his gun to have the ammo tested. If he doesn't show up - too bad, he will be removed from the match results per IPSC 5.6.3.10

You could also pick the ammo from the magazine the competitor is intending to load before he starts with the stage, but this is not really appreciated by the competitor and should be avoided. You disturb him in his preparation process, it is better to wait a few seconds and collect those rounds when the competitor returns from the stage.

And yes - ammo can be picked more than once during a competition.

[Vince Pinto]

Julian,

I agree that if there are people cheating, it's a very small percentage but, sooner or later, they will get caught, however the ammo collection procedure described by Yoda is our SOP, and it serves to further reduce the possibility of cheating.

And we have absolutely no problem if competitors know that "Stage X" includes a chrono test, and this is why it's best to use 3 poppers. If they have a special "red box", they have to use it against targets designed to recognise power and which are usually part of a long course of fire. If they're not used to that ammo, it will affect their score on a big stage.

[Julien Boit]

You're all right guys,

I know what the official procedure for collecting rounds is, I think this a good way.

At last year's french open nats, that was the way they picked up ammo.

As I just finished shooting, the RO in charge of the chrono took two of my mags including the one in the pistol, took four rounds and the other four from two ammo boxes in my bag.

He was curious about how my modiifed pistol would past the box test and the chrono, he was skeptical and I showed him how to put the gun in the box, he shot three rounds and made my day, 180 PF

The things is that for a couple of years now, our so called level3 matches were just a comedy about chrono stage.

Most of matches didn't have a chrono, and I can tell that some shooters knew there wouldn't be any chrono (I know what recoil can be expected from major pistols in standard).

The only time there was one (besides the Open Nats), you just had to go to that stage anytime you want with your gun and your ammo.

And so we saw the red boxes coming out of bags or from the trunk of the car

[ErikW]

I don't see how you can get rounds from the magazines of the current stage shooter, for every shooter. If your chrono staff walks from stage to stage, that person can't wait for every person to shoot. At best, you'll get ammo that was on the belt or on the ground from the shooter and on-deck shooter, and a mix of magazine and bagged/boxed ammo from everybody else in the squad.

Hey, I just had an idea. Have the staff come to each squad for an "equipment check." Tell the squad to put mags in all their pouches, have their guns in their holsters, and line up to verify the various division equipment requirements. Then say, "While you are here, give me ammo out of those mags ... see you at the chrono."

[Liota]

Erik,

It's easy. Your range staff comes around when your second squad is shooting to pick up the chrono rounds. It happens all the time.

My usual thing is to walk up to each competitor and ask for 8 rounds from "that" magazine and pick it. Another option I have used is two rounds from each one on the belt. Either way, the competitor doesn't have a chance to play with his/her ammo.

Liota

[Matthew_Mink]

Yeah, I like the surprise ammo gathering. Keeps people on their toes. Of course, the entire match I'm telling people that the chrono is running about 50 fps slow, and I heard a bunch of people went minor/subminor, they are going to check ammo randomly throughout the match, etc...

[shred]

What might work is surprise-chronoing about 25% of the shooters... They get done with a stage and it's "come with me please.. ". Might even happen twice if you're unlucky

Word of that gets around and people will start to behave. One of my favorite money-makers at a charity match was "Pay $5 and tell us who to chrono.."

What I think is wierd is when the chrono station at a major (Area!) match asks you what weight bullet you're shooting, and takes it on faith you're telling the truth. You've gone to all this trouble to pull ammo, have a chrono stage, shoot the bullets and you might as well just ask the shooters "You making Major today?" Worse yet is you only catch the honest but unlucky shooters. The truly dishonest ones skate.

[ErikW]

Yeah! It's not too hard or too slow to use an impact puller and an electronic scale.

I love the "pay to send somebody to the chrono" idea.

[shred]

They can use pliers for all I care... I'm not going to be using that bullet again.

The pay-to-get-someone-chronoed was fun. As soon as they announced it at the shooter's meeting, one long-suspected PF-skater wailed "I'll be at the chrono all day!"

[mcoliver]

Worse yet is you only catch the honest but unlucky shooters. The truly dishonest ones skate.

Probably because the honest ones never really exert any effort to be able to "bend" the rules.

[RH45]

This MAY be a dumb question, but, is there supposed to be a STANDARD distance, from the muzzle, that loads are SUPPOSED to be checked?

Although I know it isn't practical to try to take readings, right at the muzzle, the few times I've seen loads checked, it appears they set up at whatever distance, from the muzzle they feel like, at the time.

[Vince Pinto]

No, a fixed distance is not stated in any rule.

[Skywalker]

I suppose that a chrono placed a few metres from the muzzle, or just 1 foot ahead, won't give any difference in readings...

[Flexmoney]

I don't know about other brands, but the PACT chrono that came with my Mk-IV (timer/chrono) has a suggested distance in the manual.

Getting the chrono screens too close seems to cause problems with muzzle blast.