Yoda Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Also the CED Millenium Chrono comes with a recommended distance. The distance between muzzle and chrono skyscreens is only one of the variables, others being humidity, temperature, altitude, pressure. The possible deviation in distance (1-2 feet or even less) will in itself not influence the PF very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 And this is why we cannot state a specific distance in the rules. Each chrono maker has their own recommendation but local conditions often force the chrono guys to vary the distance. Having said that, and presuming the minimum distance to avoid muzzle blast is 3 feet (?), I doubt that having the first screen up to 20 feet away would have any real effect on the measured bullet velocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSCDRL Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 This helped to prevent any potential gamesmanship of giving the RO any "special" rounds some shooters may have in their bag. I saw Yamil Sued do exactly that at the open nationals one year when I was squadded with him. He actually pulled a Dilllon ammo box out of his shooting bag with a BIG honkin' label on it that read "Special Hot Chrono Ammo!" He laughed manically as he stroked the box of ammunition. I kid you not. He was a blast to shoot with, someone you KNOW is having a good time. I can't really remember for sure but I think the ammo collector just laughed and pulled a magazine off of his belt and took the rounds from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Say, Vince: What would be the procedure if a competitor's gun broke and he asked to use an allowable back up gun, but with a different lot of ammo? I know that, if the competitor declares a certain PF, the back up gun needs to make the same PF with the broken primary gun's ammo, if that is what was going to be used in the second gun. But what if the competitor says he knows that the ammo from the first gun, while making PF in the primary gun (chrono'd at the match or not), doesn't make the declared PF in the back up, but that he has ammo for the back up that makes the declared PF? I ask this because, for a few years, the match ammo for my match gun ran 9 PF points slower in my back up, and I was in the habit of bringing a whole match's worth of hotter ammo with me just for the back up, even though I never have used it, and actually wasn't sure whether I would be allowed to if the occasion arose. Kevin C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Kevin, there is no such thing as back-up ammo in the rulebook (IPSC). Thus, if you can demonstrate that the ammo you are actually using with your back-up gun meets declared PF, you done fair. BTW, the mere fact that you have in your bag ammo that doesn't meet declared PF (let's say minor PF ammo while you declared Major), doesn't downgrades you automatically to Minor PF, as long as you don't load your mags and show up to the firing line with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Thanks, Edoardo. Kevin C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Hi Kevin, Another good reply from Skywalker, but his real name is Luca, not Edoardo As he said, the ammo in your range bag is irrelevant - it's the ammo in your magazines on your belt that counts. If your gun breaks, and the RM allows you to use a replacement gun under Rule 5.1.7, then your gun will be re-chronographed using whatever ammo is in the magazines on your belt at that time. However if you also want to use different ammo in your replacement gun, my advice is to seek approval from the RM at the same time you seek approval to use the replacement gun, to avoid being wrongfully accused of cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Yes, Edoardo is the folk italian singer from whom I borrowed my tag line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted March 13, 2004 Author Share Posted March 13, 2004 presuming the minimum distance to avoid muzzle blast is 3 feet Just to throw in... with TiteGroup, about 6-8' is the minimum distance for me to get a reliable reading (at least in my 45) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Yes, Edoardo is the folk italian singer from whom I borrowed my tag line. Well, thanks to you both, and color me embarrassed . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Dave, Just to throw in... with TiteGroup, about 6-8' is the minimum distance for me to get a reliable reading (at least in my 45) Just to clarify, is that because of muzzle blast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted March 13, 2004 Author Share Posted March 13, 2004 Dave,Just to throw in... with TiteGroup, about 6-8' is the minimum distance for me to get a reliable reading (at least in my 45) Just to clarify, is that because of muzzle blast? Vince, maybe I'm mixing up terms? In my 45 (with low preasures), it seems that TiteGroup spews enough particulates where the chrono trap uses it to calculate speeds. With the chrono 5' away, it'll register 125fps on one shot, then 4,000+ on the next, then 0, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eye Cutter Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 last weekend, during a level II match, one "seeded" shooter in STD division who has been known to use minor ammo had a surprise collection from his magazines for the chrono stage. The "seeded" shooter promptly made a complaint that the RO should have not taken any sample ammo yet as he has not even started to shoot the stage or any stage for that matter. The RM stood by the chrono officer's procedure of getting samples and true enough, the ammo from his mags chrono' ed minor, a paltry 160PF! The "top" shooter shot that stage only and did not finish the rest of the match. Vince: Is the shooter's complaint valid? His argument was that you cannot get ammo samples if you have not started any stage yet. duuhhhh!!!! yeah, right!!! :-] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Vince: Is the shooter's complaint valid? His argument was that you cannot get ammo samples if you have not started any stage yet. I'm no Vince, but, WTF??? I'd say this is ground for an unsportsmanlike DQ! 5.6.3.2 An initial 8 sample rounds for the chronograph test will be drawn from each competitor at a time and place determined by Match Officials, who may require additional tests of a competitor’s ammunition at any time during the match. Eye Cutter, next time you hear a moron making similar statements, please (politely) ask to cite the relevant rule or STFU!!! I can understand being sub-major for 2/3 PF points as being the result of reloading mistakes and/or bad weather conditions during chrono measurements (even if you should be more than cushioning it in your reloads), but a whole 10 PF points below major threshold sounds like cheating to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eye Cutter Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 5.6.3.2 An initial 8 sample rounds for the chronograph test will be drawn from each competitor at a time and place determined by Match Officials, who may require additional tests of a competitor’s ammunition at any time during the match. Eye Cutter, next time you hear a moron making similar statements, please (politely) ask to cite the relevant rule or STFU!!! :lol: It seems that I have to keep in mind RULE 5.6.3.2! but what the heck, its easier to remember STFU! But, politely, of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 its easier to remember STFU! But, politely, of course! Weeeeeelllll ... I might have been loosing a bit of temper, due to excessive temperature and no AC in office this week, and I apologize for this ... Anyway, my suggestion was to politely ask to cite a rule; in case of no answer, then the angry part might apply... I agree with you, a 4-letter acronym is always easier to remember than a complex rule number... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Vince: Is the shooter's complaint valid? His argument was that you cannot get ammo samples if you have not started any stage yet. No. The competitor has absolutely no grounds whatsover to protest. If he comes to the range to shoot the match, then it is presumed that he might use any of the ammunition in his possession, and Rule 5.6.3.2 does not include any language to say "once he's already shot a stage". What next? A competitor has 10 magazines of Minor ammo and 10 magazines of Major ammo, but he says "I have no intention of using the Minor ammo - I just like to make my bag heavier in case of high winds" ??? It seems to me that the competitor got his just desserts and, hopefully, he won't try pulling that stunt again. And please give the RO and the RM my personal compliments on a job well done. I, as much as the next guy, cannot tolerate so-called "Range Nazis", however Range Officials who are diligent, and who protect all other competitors from such blatant cheaters (walang hiya!), deserve our collective thanks and appreciation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Weeeeeelllll ... I might have been loosing a bit of temper, due to excessive temperature and no AC in office this week, and I apologize for this ... PAGING NURSE MINOR. PAGING NURSE MINOR. EMERGENCY DOUBLE ESPRESSO REQUIRED URGENTLY IN ICU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eye Cutter Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Right on Darth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 groan...but seriously, sir, all my chrono ammo from the red box are supposed to be extra hot and I use them when I shoot your chrono stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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