Group Size FACTS: Shooting for Accuracy

[Bongo Boy]

All along I've been thinking that the point here isn't actually to see how tight a group you can get. What I mean is that, for action shooting, tight groups standing still at the range isn't the real goal. I was thinking this way: shooting accurately enough is the objective, and about the only way I can think of to know what good enough looks like, from a sight picture perspective, is to find out what particular target accuracy corresponds to what sight picture accuracy. So, shooting groups at various distances might be more to determine the level of fussiness required at the sights to get the needed hits. Shooting as tight a group as possible at each distance is a natural and useful part of that exercise, but maybe not the goal of the overall exercise.

It's a very subtle difference, maybe. But, the ultimate demonstration of the desired skill might not be 'how tight a group can you shoot'. It would be, I think, how quickly can you put all the shots in the desired target area--which leads directly to "how fussy do I have to be with the sight picture to place everything in a x-inch diameter circle at y yards".

I suppose this is kind of a big 'duh' to most folks, but I believe for me a tiny light bulb may be dimly glowing.

One might ask how this is different than calling your shots, and I'd say the ideas aren't the same but are definitely related very closely.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Bongo Boy

[SA Friday]

Kirk, you can determine this by shooting various sight pictures at a target of known distance. For example, put a target out at about 15 yds, and then take a solid sight picture center of the A zone and fire. Then take a sight picture with the front sight at the far right of the rear notch and fire, then the far left high front and low front and see where the bullets impact the target at. Do this respectively at closer and further distances.

Some sights have a much more open picture, more room between the sides of the front sight and the sides of the rear notch. Those sights will obviously have a more drastic spread in this test. Less room visually in that area is going to tighten the spread.

Doing this test at speed will reveal your eyes need to focus differently too. This is covered in BE's book.

[MrBorland]

Well, to paraphrase Cooper, on the way to mastery, one must first be expert enough to "hit anything he can see, under appropriate circumstances".

I can see the A-zone at 10 yards. I can also see the x-ring at 25 yards. Trouble hitting either under "appropriate circumstances" exposes weaknesses that I work on.

I've never explicitly thought of it as "how much fussiness can I give up?", but rather "how fast can I be fussy?". Seems the latter will take me further, though there's lots of pavement in front of me.

[Bongo Boy]

Everyone's been very helpful and thanks again for playing along. Time to expose the grim reality..

Interesting to me is Target No. 1, the first 8 rounds fired cold at the start of the session. Bringing all of my reason to bear, I'd have guessed the first target to be the worst, with gradual improvement, then gradual degradation as fatigue set in, maybe. Nope. Apparently, brain gets engaged, and then everything goes to hell.

...and more damage at 10 yards:

Even more interesting, to me anyway, is that after these targets I started putting up Bianchi tombstones at 5 yards and began blasting away at them about as fast as I can get a reasonable picture...whatever that means...and put 16 rds in 2.5" groups twice, and in 2.8" to 3.5" groups 3 times discounting one flier on each of 2 of those targets:

So I guess, for practical purposes, taking all the time in the world isn't making that much of an improvement for me. My current choices: 1) the potential for 1" groups at 7 yds and a long day at the range, or 2) 2.5" groups at 5 yds, brass flying everywhere and a boatload of smoke. I'm going with choice 2)!

Edited July 28, 2010 by Bongo Boy

[Matt Griffin]

Benchrest or freestyle? You learn on the bench, you execute on your feet.

H.

[Ron Ankeny]

...the only way I can think of to know what good enough looks like, from a sight picture perspective, is to find out what particular target accuracy corresponds to what sight picture accuracy...

There have been countless hours of writing and discussion on that very issue. If you don't have Brian's book, you might want to consider buying a copy. I agree, you don't need to me a Master in one of the precision shooting sports to do well in USPSA. Still, there is nothing wrong with knowing that you can easily make the most difficult shot in the course of fire. For that matter, all the knowledge in the world about how to make a shot won't do you a bit of good if you haven't developed the skill required to hit the target.

[Bongo Boy]

Benchrest or freestyle?

Freestyle, although based on recent experience I doubt the bench would make much if any difference. I'm expecting my new glasses to come in any day, and am hoping that helps. With my current setup, the front sight isn't as crisp as I'd like it--at this stage of experience, I prefer it when just one of the two sights is a blur.

I've read Brian's book through, but just once and one time isn't enough--for me reading and application is a very 'mix and repeat' sort of thing. It's as though study and experience have to both come first--and after--the other. So, I think I've applied some of what I've read, and the re-read currently in progress should help me see how I could have applied more better & what wasn't applied at all 'cause I fergit.

Still, there is nothing wrong with knowing that you can easily make the most difficult shot in the course of fire.

It's huge, even if you remove the word 'easily'. Knowing you can make the shot because there is nothing you have to 'remember' but to do what you always do, and have done before, has got to be the perfect level of confidence. Not too much, not too little. It's just a shot with a requirement you recognize automatically.

Shooting would be fun if it weren't for this compulsion to always hit a target.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Bongo Boy

[Matt Griffin]

I suggest taping your glasses and getting on the bench for a session. You can learn a ton about trigger control that you will never see shooting freestyle.

H.

[carlosa]

I think the most important thing I've learned from spending some time bench shooting, is that my equipment is more capable than I am.

until i sat down to shoot my gun from the bench and managed to shoot sub 2' groups at 25, i lived with the possibility that maybe my limitations were limitation of my gear and not fundamental problems with my technique.

This did not allow me to grow as a shooter. but by proving to my self that my gun is accurate and properly sighted, my subconscious has parted with he idea that a miss or a poor shoot might have not been a problem with my shooting, but a limitation of my pistol or ammo.

until we shoot our pistols with great precision (which is easier supported from a bench), we will approach our limitations with the notion that "we can not possibly suck this bad". which makes it impossible to improve.

when we witness the potential of your equipment, all our focus goes into mastering that potential. but if we are unsure of the our equipment's capabilities, we won't trust it (how could we?) which will not allow us to focus on our selves.

sorry for rambling i hope this mumble jumble makes sense

cheers,

Los.

[G-ManBart]

So I guess, for practical purposes, taking all the time in the world isn't making that much of an improvement for me. My current choices: 1) the potential for 1" groups at 7 yds and a long day at the range, or 2) 2.5" groups at 5 yds, brass flying everywhere and a boatload of smoke. I'm going with choice 2)!

When shooting unsupported taking more time only helps if it's time spent making a more perfect trigger press.

Spending time trying to get shots off with perfect sight pictures generally doesn't make for tighter groups and is often counter-productive because it tricks you into trying to make the shot go off "now" when the sights look perfectly aligned. That makes you accelerate the trigger, when you should either be really pressing at either a steady rate, or slightly decreasing rate (more decreasing with increasing difficulty of the shot).

Your first group was the tightest because you didn't have expectations, and you simply pressed the trigger properly, and let the shots go where they went. Since you had a good trigger press, the bullets all went in one hole. At 7yds, pretty much anybody short of someone with a serious neuro-muscular disorder will be able to hold the gun steady enough for all the shots to touch. Look at how little the gun actually moves (not how much it appears to move on the target) and you'll see it's very small fractions of an inch. Since the bullets are bigger than the amount that the gun moves, you get one big hole.

Try shooting some groups where you simply accept that the sights are going to move around, and just make perfectly smooth trigger presses and see what happens.

I stumbled onto this years ago shooting high power rifle. I'd stand there offhand lining up the sights, pressing the trigger, waiting to get the sights "just right" and my scores were poor. Finally, one day, I got pissed after a couple of poor shots and simply threw the rifle up, sorta lined up the sights and did a smooth trigger press....it was a 10. I figured that was just a fluke, and did it again...another 10. I realized then that it wasn't luck and my offhand scores rocketed immediately after that. This is pretty much the same thing, at a shorter distance. R,

[Bongo Boy]

Try shooting some groups where you simply accept that the sights are going to move around, and just make perfectly smooth trigger presses and see what happens.

Thanks. I will make this part of my next session, and, to the best of my ability, with no expectations of any kind. Unfortunately for me, my next chance to shoot will probably be at a regional match. So, about the best I can hope to do there will depend on how much baggage I'm able to leave behind, rather than how much new knowledge I can bring with. But that's okay...the challenge of a match is simple I guess--load and make ready, then shoot targets.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Bongo Boy

[stardust tommy]

25meter on ISSF 25m target, single hand

with my 6" PII .45 ACP

25meter on ISSF 25m target, single hand

with a standard Browning Buckmark

It's been years ago I wass shooting single handed, few years ago I've been shooting PPC courses. Now I'm back after 3 years of inactivity.

gr T

[Team Amish 1]

All freestyle, recorded during practice sessions earlier this year.

These are 5 round groups at 25 yards.

Hope this helps.

SW 617 .22LR

3.500"

2.625"

2.250"

STI Open 9x19

2.625"

3.000"

2.500"

2.000"

5.250"

3.250"

2.875"

4.000"

3.500"

4.250"

3.250"

3.500"

5.250"

Here is also a pic I took a few weeks ago. Wanted to try a new type of ammo and created several 4-6" groups at 10 (!) yards. Switched back to Federal bulk and shot a 1" group (and then several more). So ammo can have a huge impact on your performance.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Team Amish 1

[pjb45]

Over the weekend I was shooting head shots at 30 yards and I was sucking bad.

At the beeper I was drawing and shooting 4 targets. The first one, had only one hole, #2 had two, #3 had one, and #4 had two in the A zone. I did this several more times with similar results. I was concerned with my shooting. I had a lay off of about 4 months but this was hard to understand why I was shooting so poorly.

Finally, I just focused on shooting 10 shot groups into the head. No beeper and no draws. I was significantly better.

For me the lesson learned is to spend more time using the buzzer and drawing to shoot tight shots. Just standing there and shooting a tight shoot without the preamble of the beeper and draw is counter-productive.

[digby7]

We have a informal beginners bullseye league at a local range here. Shots are at 7/15/25 yards two handed and standing without a bag/rest/bench/support of any kind. Shooting at a standard NRA b29 human silhouette target

This is my first day shooting the ranges SW model 41 rental. Kept getting a flyer every lap.

12 shots at 7 yards, 24 at 15 yards and 12 at 25 yards, I need to measure a target next time to see what size group that equates to. probably in the 3-4 inch range.

[Dwain C. Baer]

Shot from 25 yards off a rest with My 627 and 180 grain bullets.

25 yards off rest with 160 grain Billy Bullets, same gun.

Nice group...and nice revolver also

[underlug]

Shot from 25 yards off a rest with My 627 and 180 grain bullets.

25 yards off rest with 160 grain Billy Bullets, same gun.

Nice group...and nice revolver also

A Story: At my last match I had a key holing problem. Thought I had solved it by the last stage (another stupid story).

Needed to test my gun to be sure I solved it. Took it to the range (627 ported with a c-more)

Put a dot on a Tombstone target. Rolled it out 45'. Loaded 5 rounds. Shot them as the c-more returned to the dot (rapid fire allowed) NOT CARING particularly where they hit because I just wanted to know if they were key holing.

Looked at the target downrange and saw a hole one inch under the dot.

Thought DRAT!! Problem not solved.

Brought the target back. 5 shots on top of each other creating the hole.

I could never do that if I TRIED. They could have been the 5 luckiest shots I have ever shot in my life. Or, we all have a lot more inherent ability to shoot accurately than we will ever know if we could disconnect our brains.

Later shots proved the key holing problem had been solved

[gtldvm]

I am extremely new to competition shooting and this forum. I know I'm ignorant as such, so I'd appreciate a quick explanation of "key-holing". BTW, great topic...

Greg in Kentucky

[E K]

I am extremely new to competition shooting and this forum. I know I'm ignorant as such, so I'd appreciate a quick explanation of "key-holing". BTW, great topic...

Greg in Kentucky

Key holing is when the bullet tumbles out of the barrel.

[gtldvm]

I am extremely new to competition shooting and this forum. I know I'm ignorant as such, so I'd appreciate a quick explanation of "key-holing". BTW, great topic...

Greg in Kentucky

Key holing is when the bullet tumbles out of the barrel.

Interesting. And the common cause of that?

[benos]

I am extremely new to competition shooting and this forum. I know I'm ignorant as such, so I'd appreciate a quick explanation of "key-holing". BTW, great topic...

Greg in Kentucky

Key holing is when the bullet tumbles out of the barrel.

Interesting. And the common cause of that?

Most commonly, it's because the bullet is a little to small for the bore diameter.

be

[Sarge]

I am extremely new to competition shooting and this forum. I know I'm ignorant as such, so I'd appreciate a quick explanation of "key-holing". BTW, great topic...

Greg in Kentucky

Key holing is when the bullet tumbles out of the barrel.

Interesting. And the common cause of that?

Most commonly, it's because the bullet is a little to small for the bore diameter.

be

But is also a common result of poor bullet/powder compatibility, low velocities, gun does not like the bullet or load, etc..

[Sin-ster]

I think I've heard keyholing attributed to too much crimp as well? Something about the bullet being deformed before it leaves the case.

It can also happen to rifle rounds after they've lost stability down range. Most commonly these days would be a heavy (long) .223 projectile out of a barrel with too little twist to keep it on the optimal access for very long. 75 grain+ in the vast majority of 1:9 carbines, for example.

[benos]

I think I've heard keyholing attributed to too much crimp as well? Something about the bullet being deformed before it leaves the case.

Yes, definitely.

be

[Whoops!]

Last weekend I shot a 15 shot 2.5" group with my witness gold custom at 25 yards. This was with a C-more sight and 121 gr HAP bullets, approximately 3 seconds between shots due to stupid range restrictions. I usually don't shoot for accuracy, but the 3 seconds forced me to.

My best large group that I can ever recall was with a stock Walther SP22 M4. Iron sights, Wolf Match Extra ammo, freestyle, 10 shots, 25 yards, 3/4 of an inch. It was usually more like 1.5" when I did my part. My best five shot group with the same pistol was under half an inch with all holes touching, but again, usually a little over an inch.

As others have said, use the dead center of the front sight blade when shooting for groups. I also refocus my eyes on several different things in a very short time period when using iron sights : distance between each side of the rear sight blades and each side of the front sight blade, the target, and finally the center of the front sight blade before clicking off the shot. A lot of people believe the shot should surprise the shooter for best accuracy. I strongly disagree. I believe the technique works well for inexperienced shooters, but experienced shooters should know exactly when the trigger is going to break without adding movement to the platform when it does break.

Also forgot to mention, I sight my guns freestyle also. One of the main reasons I focus on the target and the sights is because I only shoot at large, blank sheets of paper. I shoot the first shot wherever I want then I shoot the subsequent shots at the first shot.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Whoops!