Is it INDIAN (not the arrow) always really true!?

[latech15]

I love shooting, I love it as a hobby though. I think I would get burned out if it is all I did 8-10 hours every day. No doubt I would be a much better shooter, but I think that to beat TGO you would have to have the devotion and the desire to work CONSTANTLY on the sport. I just don't.

I do think that starting kids young exponentially increases their chances of being great. How many 17-20 year old shooters do you know that aren't better than a lot of the old guys? Seems like they just pick it up faster and are able to move/react faster than I can. I am running an experiment on the subject right now. Unfortunately my boy is only 4 but as soon as he can draw and fire safely, I will have him out there shooting and as long as I can afford it, he will have an unlimited amount of rounds to fire.

Stay tuned for the results.

[CHA-LEE]

Flexmoney> You are right, there is the other option of being totally broke and living like a bum because all of your time and money are going to shooting. But I am sure that there would be far less people willing to stoop to that level of degraded life style in order to become a top shooter. Sure there are always exceptions to that rule but for the average person the choice is simple. Have a normal day job to fund your every day lifestyle with shooting playing second fiddle to the primary responsibilities in your life. Or set everything else aside and scrape by when every hour and dollar is being absorbed by training for shooting. This isn't a new concept to shooting, this situation applies to pretty much any competitive sport/hobby.

The point I was trying to make is that in order for me to dedicate 100% of my efforts to be the best at shooting I would have to be independently wealthy. If you were independently wealthy then making money and paying bills wouldn't be the top priority consuming most of your time. This would give you the latitude to pursue something else with 100% of your efforts. So unless I hit the Lotto I don't see shooting changing its place in my overall life priority list any time soon.

[lugnut]

I have found that just about every endeavor in life can be boiled down to some sort of fundamentals.

Nice!

Eventually, after maybe some years of training... Just knowing when and where to put your attention will do everything as could as you can do it.

be

EXACTLY. I agree so much with this, almost painfully so. Every time I go to a practice session with a better shooter(s)- it always comes down to this! Better grip, stance, reload, draw, movement, etc. I REALLY, REALLY wish someone could come to me and tell me X, Y and Z- and I'll get to A level shooting. But fortunately I realize that it's the basics.

How can a shooter shoot .5s faster on a Bill Drill- Fundamental- draw, grip, trigger control, indexing- simple right?

How can someone shoot any of the classifiers faster? Same stuff... it's the basics.

I was shooting with a buddy who is close to Master in Production. It didn't take me long to realize how he was better.... he did EVERYTHING a little better and faster... the fundamentals! Ughhh.

[Pezco]

The effectiveness of the practice, be it live or not is even more important than rounds down range.

Too much self esteem is not a good thing just prove yourself, don't rant that "what if" ... I would be the best there ever was. I call that an excuse!

[Jim Watson]

It seems to me that the Indians with the most scalps have the sharpest arrows.

They don't need anything special in the way of guns and gear to beat me, but they are competing with other warriors down to the hundreth of a second.

I am firm in the belief that a shooter I know would have been a gunzine centerfold if he could have afforded good guns in his younger years. But he was often tripped up by malfunctions. He eventually made GM anyhow, of which he said: "Talent is good, but ten years and a million rounds is a big help."

[dirty whiteboy]

The cost could easily be taken out of the equation. Buy a football or a basketball. Practice field goals or making baskets. 8 hours after work, all day one the weekends. Do you think after a few years you could beat Michael Jordan in a game of one on one. Or get picked up as a free agent with an NFL team?

[lugnut]

I think some people might be overlooking a key piece. Not the Indian and certainly not the arrow... but the mentor/coach. It's not always easy to self diagnose improper form/techniques. Without a good/great coach- long practice won't necessarily help you improve... as they say practice doesn't make perfect... perfect practice makes perfect. I don't think most of us can self teach to high levels.

[gerritm]

I've always thought the guys you mentioned would be terribly insulted to hear it's all some devinely inspired "talent," considering they all began WORKING at their respective games at an age most of us had just learned to tie our shoes..

No insult to their work ethic, but they have and were born with physical and mental attributes to be great in their sport. I am from Chicago and watched MJ win 6 championships. I don't care who you are and how hard you train, but you can't make a 5 footer into 6'6" basketball player. Muggsy Bogues, maybe. Ain't gonna work. I also think that thru the luck of the draw they all found a mentor/coach who brought out that talent. MJ didn't really play basketball until he was older, I think high school. Many people grow into their sport and are lucky to find it. I never had the chance to shoot until much later in life. Where would I be if I had started at an early age? Who knows, but most are lucky to "find" their sport and some are lucky to be born into the right setting like Tiger Woods, who had dedicated parents. If you are a talented shooter, you must have been born with some kind of innate talents that makes you good. Natural ability. I still think it is the Indian.

[ong45]

No insult to their work ethic, but they have and were born with physical and mental attributes to be great in their sport. I am from Chicago and watched MJ win 6 championships. I don't care who you are and how hard you train, but you can't make a 5 footer into 6'6" basketball player. Muggsy Bogues, maybe.

Don't forget spudd Webb You can make a 5 footer into the slam dunk champion , an exception but still.......

Talent is a bit overrated, i would bet more greatness has been accomplished by sweat than genetics.

Going back to the question originally posted, if any of you could shoot a couple of million rounds or shoot 1k a day for 30 strait. Is is not reasonable to think you would be better ? How much is impossible to guess, but better ? you bet. Worth it ? Who the hell knows except for yourself ?

It's the indian who shoots a lot of arrows and doesn't burn out when he runs out of buffalos ( which explains quite a bit )

Edited July 9, 2010 by ong45

[benos]

Thorough Indians win.

(Thorough: Omitting or overlooking nothing)

be

[GrumpyOne]

Thorough Indians win.

(Thorough: Omitting or overlooking nothing)

be

Speaking of Indians' (shouldn't we be saying Native American?) and arrows', Byron Ferguson, when asked about making an extremely tough shot, said the trick was to "Be the arrow" putting all of your focus into making that shot. Byron is probably one of the best bow shooters in the world (once saw him break an aspirin, tossed into the air by his wife, with his ancient recurve bow with no sights). When asked how he got so good, he said he shot close to 100,000 arrows a year, even to this day, to stay as good as he is. It is the Native American......

[ong45]

Thorough Indians win.

(Thorough: Omitting or overlooking nothing)

be

I don't see this as a volume vs. intelligent practice choice. It's practice vs. more practice.

[GrumpyOne]

Thorough Indians win.

(Thorough: Omitting or overlooking nothing)

be

I don't see this as a volume vs. intelligent practice choice. It's practice vs. more practice.

Think of it like this, if you pratice kicking a 40 yard field goal with the heel of your foot, is that good practice or bad practice? You can practice kisking the ball with your heel till you are 100 years old, and may never make a field goal that way, because you are praticing the wrong technique. In order to get good at anything, you must practice a good technique.

[TWHaz]

I will put this forth. While we are posting/reading, the people of whom you/I/we envy are practicing

They also do not have the mental blocks most of us have not worked thru yet.

There are some on this forum that have made GM with mostly dry fire training. Live fire has it's place, But the Fundamentals are best learned thru dry fire. You must have the fundamentals down. IMHO.

Consider how many GM's win Area matches or the Nationals, World shoot "once". Then the ones who seem to just keep winning.

It is Mental as much as Physical IMHO.

Get Saul's book (Thinking Practical Shooting)and read the Chapter; "Mental aspects of Practical shooting"

Then go shooting or dry fire.

[bikerbill]

I think this is like asking if you hit 500 baseballs a day, would you be Derek Jeter? Probably not, because along with practice, you have to have a certain innate talent for whatever you're doing ... Practicing the guitar 24 hours a day won't make you Segovia, and driving around Daytona won't make you Jeff Gordon ... It WILL probably make you better than you are now, but unless you have the inborn skills of the great shooters, you'll just be better than you were before all the shooting .. and that isn't a bad thing, because we all need to be as good as we can be ...

[GrumpyOne]

The whole "Indian / Arrow" thing is wrong anyway. Technically, it would be the bow, not the arrow. In our terms, it would be the same as saying "Is it the shooter or the bullet?". The bullet will go where it's aimed, it has very little if any influence on the shot itself, where the gun has a significant influence on the shot, but, in the end, it is the shooter who has the most influence on the shot. But, I give you this, give the best shooter in the world a pistol with the barrel shot out, no rifling at all...it still shoots, but where is the Indian/Arrow/Bow discussion at now?

[Duane Thomas]

The other thing to consider is that every skill is perishable. If you are able to shoot 30,000 rounds in a month what you learned or honed during that time will start to degrade once you stop shooting at that level of ammo consumption.

I'm not convinced that's true, frankly. I've had our host tell me, "Once you get to certain level, you don't have to practice that hard to stay competitive." I've had Manny Bragg tell me, "Honestly I very rarely practice anymore, I just shoot matches. Once you get to a certain level, you don't have to practice that hard to stay competitive." I was like, "Is there an echo in here?"

Having said that, I will also say that you are not, in my experience, going to find very many truly good shooters who like the T-word. When other people say, "Wow, you're obviously a really talented shooter," good shooters are nice about it because they know that's meant as a compliment, but as one guy put it to me privately, "I hate that. I didn't get this good because I have some magical 'talent' gene. I got this good because I worked my ass off to be this good." Then, maybe, once you've put in that much work, over that much time, you get to a point where you don't have to practice that much anymore to stay competitive. But the point is you have to work your ass off FIRST.

The whole "If I had unlimited time, and unlimited ammo, I could be great" argument doesn't do a whole lot for me. It never has. Even if some magical gun genie appeared and handed the people making that argument all the free time, and all the free ammo, in the world they wouldn't be great. Because they're making excuses for why they're not already great, when the people who are great just make the sacrifices necessary to be great. Instead of getting a decent job that pays a decent income, they get a subsistence level, part-time job (Travis Tomasie detailed cars, for instance) that makes them just enough money to pay the rent on their crappy studio apartment, buy gas and keep their POS 20-year old car on the road, eat and clothe themselves, and then every other penny they have goes into guns, ammo, and match fees, every waking moment goes into practice, dry fire, range time, THINKING about shooting. Do that for ten years or so, there aren't many people who can stand up to you.

Then of course, someone not willing to make that commitment, and that level of sacrifice, comes along and says, "If I had unlimited time, and unlimited ammo, I could be great too."

Please.

[Flyin40]

The other thing to consider is that every skill is perishable. If you are able to shoot 30,000 rounds in a month what you learned or honed during that time will start to degrade once you stop shooting at that level of ammo consumption.

I'm not convinced that's true, frankly. I've had our host tell me, "Once you get to certain level, you don't have to practice that hard to stay competitive." I've had Manny Bragg tell me, "Honestly I very rarely practice anymore, I just shoot matches. Once you get to a certain level, you don't have to practice that hard to stay competitive." I was like, "Is there an echo in here?"

Manny is great for quotes. He said the following to me at an Area match. Same yr he won 7 or 8 majors.

"I haven't shot 2000 total rounds in practice this year"

Flyin

[Duane Thomas]

Think of it like this, if you pratice kicking a 40 yard field goal with the heel of your foot, is that good practice or bad practice? You can practice kisking the ball with your heel till you are 100 years old, and may never make a field goal that way, because you are praticing the wrong technique. In order to get good at anything, you must practice a good technique.

Excellent analogy. I like that one.

[ong45]

Think of it like this, if you pratice kicking a 40 yard field goal with the heel of your foot, is that good practice or bad practice? You can practice kisking the ball with your heel till you are 100 years old, and may never make a field goal that way, because you are praticing the wrong technique. In order to get good at anything, you must practice a good technique.

Good one , you are seriously suggesting that anyone who has the gall to practice more than you're willing to is automatically kicking a field goal with the" heel of their foot" ? You must have the market cornered on "good technique"

Or are you just having trouble with the idea that there are people working harder than you ?

Then of course, someone not willing to make that commitment, and that level of sacrifice, comes along and says, "If I had unlimited time, and unlimited ammo, I could be great too."

Please.

For heaven's sake , even with a hypothetical unlimited ammo/ practice scenario few are willing to chase greatness?

Sad to me that the majority of people fall into the " i never will/ not willing to " crowd. If you don't care enough keep it to yourself, i figured this forum was about excellence or no ?

I suspect that a lot of you do care about being the best but are hesitant to put yourself out publicly, satisfied with giving the top guys a run for their money ? really ? Close like horseshoes or atomic bombs ?

[GrumpyOne]

Think of it like this, if you pratice kicking a 40 yard field goal with the heel of your foot, is that good practice or bad practice? You can practice kicking the ball with your heel till you are 100 years old, and may never make a field goal that way, because you are praticing the wrong technique. In order to get good at anything, you must practice a good technique.

Good one , you are seriously suggesting that anyone who has the gall to practice more than you're willing to is automatically kicking a field goal with the" heel of their foot" ? You must have the market cornered on "good technique"

Or are you just having trouble with the idea that there are people working harder than you ?

Then of course, someone not willing to make that commitment, and that level of sacrifice, comes along and says, "If I had unlimited time, and unlimited ammo, I could be great too."

Please.

For heaven's sake , even with a hypothetical unlimited ammo/ practice scenario few are willing to chase greatness?

Sad to me that the majority of people fall into the " i never will/ not willing to " crowd. If you don't care enough keep it to yourself, i figured this forum was about excellence or no ?

I suspect that a lot of you do care about being the best but are hesitant to put yourself out publicly, satisfied with giving the top guys a run for their money ? really ? Close like horseshoes or atomic bombs ?

Methinks you misunderstand. What I'm saying is bad practice is worse than no practice....Someone can practice "Kicking with their heel" forever and not make a field goal, whereas someone may practice for a few months the RIGHT way and kick many field goals....

I don't have any market cornered, nor am I trying to. I'm just learning myself...But, I have learned throughout my life, that in order to be good at anything, you must practice, and practice the correct technique...Why do you think they have spring training for baseball, football, etc?

[TRUbor9]

shooting at least 50 rnds a day is good practice but make sure with those 50 rnds you are using the technique u want. and i agree recoil and the bang make a big difference.

50% indian(he must be somewhat skilled) and 50% arrow(if the heads on backwards and the thing isnt solid then the indiand could be the best archer in history and he wouldnt ever eat for the fact the arrow doesnt fly straight or penatrate anything)

[GrumpyOne]

shooting at least 50 rnds a day is good practice but make sure with those 50 rnds you are using the technique u want. and i agree recoil and the bang make a big difference.

50% indian(he must be somewhat skilled) and 50% arrow(if the heads on backwards and the thing isnt solid then the indiand could be the best archer in history and he wouldnt ever eat for the fact the arrow doesnt fly straight or penatrate anything)

[/quote/]

That reminds me...Did you guys know that the word "vegetarian" is actually a Native American word? It literally translates to "Can't hunt worth sh*&!"

[benos]

The other thing to consider is that every skill is perishable. If you are able to shoot 30,000 rounds in a month what you learned or honed during that time will start to degrade once you stop shooting at that level of ammo consumption.

I'm not convinced that's true, frankly. I've had our host tell me, "Once you get to certain level, you don't have to practice that hard to stay competitive." I've had Manny Bragg tell me, "Honestly I very rarely practice anymore, I just shoot matches. Once you get to a certain level, you don't have to practice that hard to stay competitive." I was like, "Is there an echo in here?"

Manny is great for quotes. He said the following to me at an Area match. Same yr he won 7 or 8 majors.

"I haven't shot 2000 total rounds in practice this year"

Flyin

It took me 10 years of hard trainging before I didn't have to practice much to maintain my skills. I still practiced though, because I enjoyed deep practice.

I remember realizing the truth of that (not having to practice much) after shooting and Area match, sometime in the mid-90's. As soon as I arrived at the match Robbie and Jay were going on and on - they'd spent the entire week practicing all day long at Fort Bragg (I think it was). I remember thinking, man, these guys are going to kill me because I spent the last week driving around the country in my VW van. But neither of them shot any better than they "normally" would have, and I won the match. That's when it really sunk in.

be

[Duane Thomas]

For heaven's sake , even with a hypothetical unlimited ammo/ practice scenario few are willing to chase greatness?

Yes, even with a hypothetical unlimited ammo/practice scenario, few are willing to chase greatness. It just costs too much, not in money but in time, and work, and application, and focus, and putting just about everything else in your life on hold, perhaps indefinitely. Most people simply don't have that capability within themselves. This is life. And ya know what, the people who did make it, in overwhelming probability did it without starting with the advantage of having an easy, unlimited ammo availability, and all the free time in the world to practice, simply handed to them.