Revolver Division

[Daniele]

While the proposed rule for Revo division limited 8 Times to Minor, this does not apply to SS!

Loading a 38/357 to Major is easy!

[Carmoney]

The only major match I have shot so far this year with the wheelgun is Area 5. Here is a link to the stage designs, all laid out on one web page: http://a5match.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=54

Take a look at those stages for a quick minute, and then ask yourself whether you would automatically choose 8-shot minor over 6-shot major.

Without looking at the stages in pretty close detail, you might not be able to easily decide. I'm not sure which option I would choose....and I shot the match!

[pskys2]

Shooting an 7/8 shot in USPSA just gives you an extra shot in case you don't light one off. The down side is you have to be religious in your counting of shots, The penalty is huge!

Futher being that the major time use in Revo is the reload, I'd wager that if Minor 8 was allowed it would quickly end up being the firearm of choice.

So how is that fair to all the 6, or even 7, shot Revos? The serious USPSA Revo's all have their rigs, gear, guns, etc the newbies may have a 7 or 8 shot, but not much else invested and they can play with that on a local level without much complaints.

I've shot some ICORE with my 625, but it's a game that allows the 8 shooters and even though they attempt to equalize the courses, which removes a lot of fun, it still has become a game to use an 8 shot Revo if you are serious.

I once thought of it as a viable option, but now think it is just a waste of effort.

The current rules are simple and fair. Let's just use them.

Dave

[Bubber]

The only major match I have shot so far this year with the wheelgun is Area 5. Here is a link to the stage designs, all laid out on one web page: http://a5match.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=54

Take a look at those stages for a quick minute, and then ask yourself whether you would automatically choose 8-shot minor over 6-shot major.

Without looking at the stages in pretty close detail, you might not be able to easily decide. I'm not sure which option I would choose....and I shot the match!

It is quite an easy choice for me. As I shoot minor anyway I would take the extra 2 rounds and lose a reload here or there. But as that is not an option I will gladly take the 6 shot and shoot it to the best of my ability. It may not look like it is to the best of my ability, espicialy on classifiers, but it is. later rdd

[cliffwalsh]

Shooting an 7/8 shot in USPSA just gives you an extra shot in case you don't light one off. The down side is you have to be religious in your counting of shots, The penalty is huge!

Futher being that the major time use in Revo is the reload, I'd wager that if Minor 8 was allowed it would quickly end up being the firearm of choice.

So how is that fair to all the 6, or even 7, shot Revos? The serious USPSA Revo's all have their rigs, gear, guns, etc the newbies may have a 7 or 8 shot, but not much else invested and they can play with that on a local level without much complaints.

I've shot some ICORE with my 625, but it's a game that allows the 8 shooters and even though they attempt to equalize the courses, which removes a lot of fun, it still has become a game to use an 8 shot Revo if you are serious.

I once thought of it as a viable option, but now think it is just a waste of effort.

The current rules are simple and fair. Let's just use them.

Dave

Right on Dave.

Carmoney did shoot the IRC with a 625 a few years ago and was 3rd or 4th. It just comes down to not missing and we all know Mike doesn't miss. I shot retro this year and I don't think I loaded any more that the 8 shot guys on my squad except on the carnival stage. There were so many things to shoot from everywhere that you could always use all your bullets.

If you want to talk rule change, I would not mind seeing USPSA go the way of IPSC and make it a procedural to fire the 7th or 8th round, not bump to open. I don't know why we have different rules.

[John Z Sr]

Cliff's response makes sense about the procedural for 7th or 8th shot. I say please leave revo alone

[hf219]

As a test only, what if competitors that wanted to shoot their 8 shot or revo with optic mounted only shot for category placement? The revo division would still have everyone counted for trophies ect. The test would not eliminate or push competitors to other divisions. This would keep them collectively in revo division. It would be a test pilot so to speak. If competitors wanted to shoot an 8 shot or an optic they could do so. If someone really wanted to shoot a major match with all 8 shots or an optic they could do so with the understanding that they place only for a category reward. If the majority tend to stay in line with current division makeup then fine. It still allows competitors an option to shoot all 8 shots or with an optic in the revo division, just in a narrower reward area. These two categories would not be combined with revo in general so the results and HHF would not be skewed. As stated by some here, they would like to shoot an optic, just not with the open division as a penalty. Some would like to shoot 8 shots just not with auto loaders. Revo is a whole nother world in itself. Giving a penalty to a revo shooter and sending them into a semiauto open division is like telling them to give up on revo. If you screw up in a semauto division you can possibley grab a big stick and still go to work. Not always can you get a big stick and be competitive that is. You just dont have that option with a revo. Revo shooters say that most autoloaders dont understand what, how or why they do what they do. Adding a couple categories in the manner I suggested doesnt take away from the division, I think that it could open it up narrowly at first. It would also not give a death sentence to a competitor who gets bumped to open. Then again, my original post just wanted to know what the optic answer would be. Thanks H!

[Carmoney]

I have been following this whole issue pretty closely for the past five years, and I believe the definite trend is toward fewer divisions and categories. Due in large part to marketing effort applied here on this forum, USPSA Revolver division has survived and grown, but there is no consistent support for anything other than what we have now. There is only a tiny handful of people who have any interest in shooting an optical-sighted 8-shot revolver in USPSA anyway. Most of the guys who would be interested in that have already gravitated to ICORE. Most of the USPSA Revo guys prefer the simplicity and challenge of six shots and iron sights, and the lack of any real equipment race which creates what some view as a purer form of competition.

[hf219]

I have been following this whole issue pretty closely for the past five years, and I believe the definite trend is toward fewer divisions and categories. Due in large part to marketing effort applied here on this forum, USPSA Revolver division has survived and grown, but there is no consistent support for anything other than what we have now. There is only a tiny handful of people who have any interest in shooting an optical-sighted 8-shot revolver in USPSA anyway. Most of the guys who would be interested in that have already gravitated to ICORE. Most of the USPSA Revo guys prefer the simplicity and challenge of six shots and iron sights, and the lack of any real equipment race which creates what some view as a purer form of competition.

Point well taken. H!

[Bubber]

As a test only, what if competitors that wanted to shoot their 8 shot or revo with optic mounted only shot for category placement? The revo division would still have everyone counted for trophies ect. The test would not eliminate or push competitors to other divisions. This would keep them collectively in revo division. It would be a test pilot so to speak. If competitors wanted to shoot an 8 shot or an optic they could do so. If someone really wanted to shoot a major match with all 8 shots or an optic they could do so with the understanding that they place only for a category reward. If the majority tend to stay in line with current division makeup then fine. It still allows competitors an option to shoot all 8 shots or with an optic in the revo division, just in a narrower reward area. These two categories would not be combined with revo in general so the results and HHF would not be skewed. As stated by some here, they would like to shoot an optic, just not with the open division as a penalty. Some would like to shoot 8 shots just not with auto loaders. Revo is a whole nother world in itself. Giving a penalty to a revo shooter and sending them into a semiauto open division is like telling them to give up on revo. If you screw up in a semauto division you can possibley grab a big stick and still go to work. Not always can you get a big stick and be competitive that is. You just dont have that option with a revo. Revo shooters say that most autoloaders dont understand what, how or why they do what they do. Adding a couple categories in the manner I suggested doesnt take away from the division, I think that it could open it up narrowly at first. It would also not give a death sentence to a competitor who gets bumped to open. Then again, my original post just wanted to know what the optic answer would be. Thanks H!

Why not give it a try at your local match for a while and see if they are any takers. I wish you better luck than I had, but then again I do not have the numbers of Revo shooters to draw from, except for the 7 to 10 guys at our local match shooting the revo. later rdd

[DougCarden]

Guys, be careful what you ask for, you may get it and then you will loose what you have now....The guys that worked to get REVO to where it is today fought a hard battle with intelligent, informed, and reasoned arguments, and prevailed.

The guys that want to shoot REVO shoot revo, the guys that want to shoot steel shoot steel. It has always been that way.

We talked about this at Bianchi this year, and back when it started there were only 3 big matches, NATS, Bianchi, and the Steel Challenge. The shooters shot those matches, because that was what was out there.

Now flash forward 35+ years. We now have so many different disciplines that it is impossible to shoot them all. The shooters have to make a decision on what to shoot, and they do what they can.

If you want to shoot Open Revo, shoot it with the open guns at the matches. If you want to compete with other Revos, shoot ICORE matches. You can be very competitive at steel matches too.

You are just not going to get or gain acceptance at USPSA for an open revo category, and quite frankly, you don't want to go there anyway.

We are now seeing what has happened to the Steel Challenge match now that USPSA runs it, and the decline happened sooner than we predicted. Dont think it wont happen to your subset as well.....

For those who don't know me, please realize that I have attended a lot of big matches the last 5 or so years, have shut my big mouth and listened when the suits spoke to us, and then have watched what they have done......

Happy face back on......

DougC

[John Z Sr]

I have been following this whole issue pretty closely for the past five years, and I believe the definite trend is toward fewer divisions and categories. Due in large part to marketing effort applied here on this forum, USPSA Revolver division has survived and grown, but there is no consistent support for anything other than what we have now. There is only a tiny handful of people who have any interest in shooting an optical-sighted 8-shot revolver in USPSA anyway. Most of the guys who would be interested in that have already gravitated to ICORE. Most of the USPSA Revo guys prefer the simplicity and challenge of six shots and iron sights, and the lack of any real equipment race which creates what some view as a purer form of competition.

Yeah, what he said

[pskys2]

If you want a Category in Revolver I'd look at a "Speedloader" Category like Hop-a-long does in Memphis.

Seems to me it's best to concentrate on selling the simplicity/challenge aspect of Revovler Division as the best way to approach it.

My .02 worth is changing anything will just decrease interest, but then again to play devils advocate opening up the major/minor 6 vs 8 shot idea would open the Division up to an equipment race. The unintended drawback will be some with gamier inclinations will be drawn in and that can lead to a whole rash of problems we don't have in Revo at this time, and I'd not like to see it start.

Edited July 6, 2010 by pskys2

[Northern Xtreme]

As a test only, what if competitors that wanted to shoot their 8 shot or revo with optic mounted only shot for category placement? The revo division would still have everyone counted for trophies ect. The test would not eliminate or push competitors to other divisions. This would keep them collectively in revo division. It would be a test pilot so to speak. If competitors wanted to shoot an 8 shot or an optic they could do so. If someone really wanted to shoot a major match with all 8 shots or an optic they could do so with the understanding that they place only for a category reward. If the majority tend to stay in line with current division makeup then fine. It still allows competitors an option to shoot all 8 shots or with an optic in the revo division, just in a narrower reward area. These two categories would not be combined with revo in general so the results and HHF would not be skewed. As stated by some here, they would like to shoot an optic, just not with the open division as a penalty. Some would like to shoot 8 shots just not with auto loaders. Revo is a whole nother world in itself. Giving a penalty to a revo shooter and sending them into a semiauto open division is like telling them to give up on revo. If you screw up in a semauto division you can possibley grab a big stick and still go to work. Not always can you get a big stick and be competitive that is. You just dont have that option with a revo. Revo shooters say that most autoloaders dont understand what, how or why they do what they do. Adding a couple categories in the manner I suggested doesnt take away from the division, I think that it could open it up narrowly at first. It would also not give a death sentence to a competitor who gets bumped to open. Then again, my original post just wanted to know what the optic answer would be. Thanks H!

Shoot their 8 shot optic mounted revolver only for catagory placement? What does that mean?

Are you going to feel good about beating a guy shooting a six shot iron sighted revolver with a full blown 8 shot race revolver?"

I understand that it would be fun to shoot your race revolver in a match, and nobody is preventing you from doing that, and if you have a buddy that has one also then the two of you can shoot and see who comes out on top in the open catagory.

But I really think it is selfish to ask everyone to change the rules to allow you an obvious competitive advantage, and to disrupt a division that is already struggling. You might get a few guys that already have V-8's to shoot a USPSA match with them, but you will loose more of the established revolver guys in the process.

If you want to play with your race revolver be my guest, thats what I like about USPSA everyone can shoot their favorite gun, it might not be the most advantagious gun for a division but you can still play the game.

Then if you want to try to win a division there are several to choose from where you do not need an expensive gun to have an equal chance with everyone, Production, Single Stack, and Revolver are some of those divisions.

Let open division be the place where the big dollar guns play, people can try to buy a competitive advantage there.

But please dont spoil revolver division!

[buckaroo45]

I'm with Carmony and Carden. Leave Revo as is. If you want to use optics or 7-8 shooters (I've done both) there are going to be precious few entrants. There are already several places / divisions where they can be enjoyed. I shoot revo because of it's purity. Iron sight 6 shot revolver IS the challenge. Leave it at that.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"Changing over to shooting revolver is the natural evolution of things, like learning to walk upright."

D.H. Busching

[hf219]

As a test only, what if competitors that wanted to shoot their 8 shot or revo with optic mounted only shot for category placement? These two categories would not be combined with revo in general so the results and HHF would not be skewed. As stated by some here, they would like to shoot an optic, just not with the open division as a penalty. Some would like to shoot 8 shots just not with auto loaders. Revo is a whole nother world in itself. Giving a penalty to a revo shooter and sending them into a semiauto open division is like telling them to give up on revo. If you screw up in a semauto division you can possibley grab a big stick and still go to work. Not always can you get a big stick and be competitive that is. You just dont have that option with a revo.

Shoot their 8 shot optic mounted revolver only for catagory placement? What does that mean?

Are you going to feel good about beating a guy shooting a six shot iron sighted revolver with a full blown 8 shot race revolver?"

But please dont spoil revolver division!

Just to clean it up a bit. I did not say an 8 shot WITH optic. The bold print above will clarify that. The original post once again only asked about optics being introduced into the revo as possibly a category. Someone shot me an email inquiring about it, I spoke with some revo shooters who suggested I post something on Enos. As I have, the thread has drifted off the original topic. Im not looking to spoil the revo division or water it down. I just asked a question, its been answered rather well, by many sources on this forum. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding, thanks, H!

Edited July 7, 2010 by hf219

[Northern Xtreme]

As a test only, what if competitors that wanted to shoot their 8 shot or revo with optic mounted only shot for category placement? These two categories would not be combined with revo in general so the results and HHF would not be skewed. As stated by some here, they would like to shoot an optic, just not with the open division as a penalty. Some would like to shoot 8 shots just not with auto loaders. Revo is a whole nother world in itself. Giving a penalty to a revo shooter and sending them into a semiauto open division is like telling them to give up on revo. If you screw up in a semauto division you can possibley grab a big stick and still go to work. Not always can you get a big stick and be competitive that is. You just dont have that option with a revo.

Shoot their 8 shot optic mounted revolver only for catagory placement? What does that mean?

Are you going to feel good about beating a guy shooting a six shot iron sighted revolver with a full blown 8 shot race revolver?"

But please dont spoil revolver division!

Just to clean it up a bit. I did not say an 8 shot WITH optic. The bold print above will clarify that. The original post once again only asked about optics being introduced into the revo as possibly a category. Someone shot me an email inquiring about it, I spoke with some revo shooters who suggested I post something on Enos. As I have, the thread has drifted off the original topic. Im not looking to spoil the revo division or water it down. I just asked a question, its been answered rather well, by many sources on this forum. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding, thanks, H!

So your suggestion was to have an eight shot revolver division, an optic revolver devision, as well as the current revolver division?

Might as well add a speedloader division and another one for compensated revolvers, a snub nose division, and then an open revolver division for people wanting to shoot any combination of them.

If we are lucky we might even get two guys in the same division at a match.

Not trying to be a dick, this is said with tongue in cheek, but I am trying to illustrate where this is going when you start splitting an already small division.

Like I said, I do understand the desire to play with your open revolvers, and I dont begrudge you that, I wish I had an eight shot 38 super, but I wouldnt expect to shoot it in the revolver division, I'd like to go to the local matches and see how many open guys I could beat with it, like Vic Picket does.

[hf219]

So your suggestion was to have an eight shot revolver division, an optic revolver devision, as well as the current revolver division?

No, my suggestion was in regards to category not division. I agree with the statement that watering down the division is not a good way to promote revo as a division. H!

[Daniele]

It seems allowing "8 shot minor" will start an equipment race.

It IS already an equipment race!

A S&W 625 is not the revolver everyone has at home, that's 686!

BUT if you shoot to compete not for fun you MUST buy and use a 625.

Getting HearthCo clips, Carmonized action, fiber optic front sight, NorthMountain clipholder, fast holster etc may be not mandatory but sure all these things help in gaining better performance!

On the other hand with 6(ICORE) or 9(IPSC)round shooting position a 8 times gives little advantage, so what's the matter allowing new guys entering in our small field?

P.S. I use a 6 shot 646 40S&W Major in IPSC/ICORE/SteelChallenge; 625 or 627 or 686 Plus from time to time just for fun!

Edited July 7, 2010 by Daniele

[Matt Griffin]

BUT if you shoot to compete not for fun you MUST buy and use a 625.

Getting HearthCo clips, Carmonized action, fiber optic front sight, NorthMountain clipholder, fast holster etc may be not mandatory but sure all these things help in gaining better performance!

On the other hand with 6(ICORE) or 9(IPSC)round shooting position a 8 times gives little advantage, so what's the matter allowing new guys entering in our small field?

P.S. I use a 6 shot 646 40S&W Major in IPSC/ICORE/SteelChallenge; 625 or 627 or 686 Plus from time to time just for fun!

Point 1: No. You must use a moonclipped gun, I'll say that, but be it a 625, a 25, a 610, or something else you had cut for clips, there are options.

Point 2: No, you don't need hearthco clips, Carmoney's trigger (though it is nice), NM holder, fast holster, or anything else. You need a holster that you practice with, some form of moonclip holder on your belt that you practice with, and a gun that you practice with.

Point 3: There are numbers between 6 and 9. These would be the important numbers in this particular argument.

I'll gladly shoot minor and keep using my plain moonclips, go back to the cheapy kydex clip holders I started with, and switch back to my own trigger job if I get to have eight shots in USPSA. Mike, Cliff, anyone want to sign a petition to let only me shoot 8 times while you guys get 6? You know, for research purposes?

H.

[jhgtyre]

Category recognition is for people who are Sr, Jr, Lady, Mil, LE etc... not equipement.

-ld

[jmax]

At one time I was a strong proponent of opening up IPSC revo to other revo variations but in retrospect I have changed my mind and think it should stay like it is. For those who want the other flavors there are ICORE and IDPA matches. Please get Carmoney a small asprin for under the tong and get him to the hospital for an EKG

Edited July 7, 2010 by jmax

[Carmoney]

I'll gladly shoot minor and keep using my plain moonclips, go back to the cheapy kydex clip holders I started with, and switch back to my own trigger job if I get to have eight shots in USPSA. Mike, Cliff, anyone want to sign a petition to let only me shoot 8 times while you guys get 6? You know, for research purposes?

As I have always said, it would depend on stage design at any particular match. On the other hand, not only would I not want to lose because of an "equipment race", I also wouldn't want to win because of one either. That's part of my attraction to Revo, we're all pretty much shooting the same equipment. As it stands right now, if you beat me, we both know it's because you outperformed me, not because you have some trick gun.

[Carmoney]

Please get Carmoney a small asprin for under the tong and get him to the hospital for an EKG

OK John, just because you moved out to California doesn't mean you should be talking about my tong!

[jmax]

Actually I was concerned about a sudden heart stoppage.

Edited July 8, 2010 by jmax