Sprint to a position or shoot while moving

[muahdib4]

This weekend the debate came up about sprinting to a position or shooting while moving. I am a fairly new shooter and this was my 3rd match and I'm always looking for advice. Seemed like all the guys in my squad were picking positions on the COF and sprinting to those, engaging targets and sprinting to the next. I also watch a lot of the pros on TV and youtube and some of them do that as well. But I watch guys like Rob Leatham (who doesn't move as well anymore) who seem to never really stop shooting. The movement is slower but he engages targets as they become visible and he's always shooting while moving in and out of position allowing him to make time. Even when he was younger and moving better, he still shot on the move. Which one is better truly or is it just a matter of preference for what works for you? I'm taller than many of the shooters at 6'2" and explosive movements are more difficult on some of the smaller courses so I try to find ways to break down the COF so that I'm not wasting movement and always engaging a target if possible. I'll slow down my movements to be able to actually shoot while moving. Is that the best way or should I focus more on exploding out of position and getting to the next one as quickly as possible?

[diehli]

It's COF- and shooter ability-dependent. There is no "1" right way.

[CocoBolo]

This weekend the debate came up about sprinting to a position or shooting while moving. I am a fairly new shooter and this was my 3rd match and I'm always looking for advice. Seemed like all the guys in my squad were picking positions on the COF and sprinting to those, engaging targets and sprinting to the next. I also watch a lot of the pros on TV and youtube and some of them do that as well. But I watch guys like Rob Leatham (who doesn't move as well anymore) who seem to never really stop shooting. The movement is slower but he engages targets as they become visible and he's always shooting while moving in and out of position allowing him to make time. Even when he was younger and moving better, he still shot on the move. Which one is better truly or is it just a matter of preference for what works for you? I'm taller than many of the shooters at 6'2" and explosive movements are more difficult on some of the smaller courses so I try to find ways to break down the COF so that I'm not wasting movement and always engaging a target if possible. I'll slow down my movements to be able to actually shoot while moving. Is that the best way or should I focus more on exploding out of position and getting to the next one as quickly as possible?

Here is the easy answer. USPSA is scored points per second. Keeping that in mind the less time you spend on a stage not shooting the better.

If the shots are easy enough for you to make while moving (this excludes some armor coat and those with tight no shoots) then it is almost always faster to shoot on the move. There are variables and it will vary a little between Open and Iron sight divisions. You have to consider if you run to get very close and you can shoot extremely rapidly with receless abandon well then it might just be faster to do that. If there is some distance you will not be shooting on the move and you must go there anyway then go there.

Clear as mud but you get the idea.

[JeffWard]

My opinion...

If it's a large target, in close, I'll shoot it moving.

If it's smaller or tighter, I'll run to it, and shoot it still.

If I can shoot one moving in or going out of a position (moving), I will. Then shoot the rest from there, stationary.

If I'm finishing in the final position, I'll run there and stop and shoot.

I've shot way too many misses trying to shoot hard targets on the move that I could have gotten an "easy A" if I'd have stopped.

The best in the world are ALWAYS moving. They shoot everything moving, because movement is time. I'm practicing this skill to make me better, but for a match, I shoot only to the level of my CURRENT ability.

Jeff

[DyNo!]

It's COF- and shooter ability-dependent. There is no "1" right way.

Yup - here is an example of my friend and I shooting the same stage - I shoot better than he does on the move but he can stop and start more quickly than I can.

We did the array on the left in about the same amount of time. I took a much needed extra shot at the end which made me less than a second slower overall on the stage - we got the same hits otherwise.

Me moving and shooting (SKIP TO 20 SECONDS):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6fS5MBJTgg#t=0m20s

Friend sprinting and stopping (SKIP TO 20 SECONDS):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_eoMOhJBwc#t=0m22s

Edit: After syncing the video on the buzzer, it looks like we take the same amount of time to get the same hits on the left array. YMMV.

Edited June 21, 2010 by DyNo!

[AlamoShooter]

If you can not do both you will not find your protential. some stages have sets of targets that have hallway type postions to the targets, they use barrels, lots of them and the only place you can see the target is in spot that are 3 feet apart. = That is a time shooting and moveing works to keep you from a bunch of starts and stops.

Moveing and shooting for the sake of moving is not good.

Being able to shoot moveing , and being able to sprint and stop ready to shoot are Skill sets that make a good shooter.

The only way I keep up with younger faster shooters is that I move off of a target faster and start the shot sooner when I hit my mark after a move. At 53 I out run younger shooters.

Buy the way Missing eats up time and point faster than any thing eles.

I May never be a GM but I am a solid M , find any weekness and train it out of your platform.

[sperman]

My opinion...

If it's a large target, in close, I'll shoot it moving.

If it's smaller or tighter, I'll run to it, and shoot it still.

If I can shoot one moving in or going out of a position (moving), I will. Then shoot the rest from there, stationary.

If I'm finishing in the final position, I'll run there and stop and shoot.

I've shot way too many misses trying to shoot hard targets on the move that I could have gotten an "easy A" if I'd have stopped.

The best in the world are ALWAYS moving. They shoot everything moving, because movement is time. I'm practicing this skill to make me better, but for a match, I shoot only to the level of my CURRENT ability.

Jeff

+1 to all of that.

[Blueridge]

As has been posted earlier, shooting while moving or sprint to position depends on the stage. One thing that has not been mentioned specifically are reloads, and they will also affect which one you do. Depending on when and where you have to, or choose to, reload will effect which one you do. You don't want to run out of ammunition while crossing from point A to point B, and have to stop or go back to pick up targets. Being able to shoot on the move does no good without the ammo needed to make the shots during that time.

I compete in Revolver Division, so taking extra shots is not a habit of mine. During walkthrough I try to find positions that provide me views of the most targets, and I take most of my shots from those places. I will take distance shots at targets that I can engage later from a closer position, because I trust that I can make the majority of the longer shots that I take. Once I get to the closer position I'll glance at the target that I engaged farther back and if I totally missed I'll engage again. I shoot good enough generally to make A and C zone shots, and am able to pass the targets at the closer range without having to re-engage.

Shooting autos allows for makeup shots more often than revolver. Watching auto shooters live and on video, I have found it common to see 3-5 makeup shots on stages. Out of a 5 stage match, I might take 4 makeup shots total (barring difficulty with a texas star, steel plates, or steel poppers). I am not saying that I am a better shot than an auto shooter of my same classification, but in a 24 round stage I am going to have to reload 3 times to get the necessary number of rounds. The (production)auto shooter will have to reload twice, and have 7 rounds of ammunition over that which is necessary. Those 7 more rounds give you some leeway to take shots that might not be your best, and add a few more if you feel inclined for "good measure".

My point is that several other factors come into play aside from your skill at moving and shooting. Opportunity is the biggest factor in this subject, as I see it.

[muahdib4]

Sounds like a lot of good advice. Movement between target positions is one of the big places I'm losing time and I know it. I know I need to engage targets sooner while coming into a position and be moving out of position as I engage the last target. I think that's why I'm so hooked on all of this. There are so many details that you never even really consider until you actually do it and then you start looking for ways to do it more efficiently.

[Jake Di Vita]

Most shooters below GM (plus a fair amount of M's) gain next to nothing shooting on the move. It is a truly dynamic skill that works fantastic when the shooter is skilled enough to use it, but for average Joe Shooter, you will be better served by running to a position and shooting stationary with the exception of arms length targets.

[Nik Habicht]

Most shooters below GM (plus a fair amount of M's) gain next to nothing shooting on the move. It is a truly dynamic skill that works fantastic when the shooter is skilled enough to use it, but for average Joe Shooter, you will be better served by running to a position and shooting stationary with the exception of arms length targets.

I disagree. I suck at explosive movement; when I find time to practice, I get pretty good at shooting stuff on the move --- and I know I generate higher hit factors when that's appropriate....

Find your style --- and then practice the hell out of it and everything else you can think of.

While I disagree --- sometimes, on some stages, hitting the positions and shooting stationary is the way to go. If you're regularly shooting stages that are designed by folks who understand freestyle, then movement becomes a critical skill....

[Team Amish 1]

This weekend the debate came up about sprinting to a position or shooting while moving. I am a fairly new shooter and this was my 3rd match and I'm always looking for advice. Seemed like all the guys in my squad were picking positions on the COF and sprinting to those, engaging targets and sprinting to the next. I also watch a lot of the pros on TV and youtube and some of them do that as well. But I watch guys like Rob Leatham (who doesn't move as well anymore) who seem to never really stop shooting. The movement is slower but he engages targets as they become visible and he's always shooting while moving in and out of position allowing him to make time. Even when he was younger and moving better, he still shot on the move. Which one is better truly or is it just a matter of preference for what works for you? I'm taller than many of the shooters at 6'2" and explosive movements are more difficult on some of the smaller courses so I try to find ways to break down the COF so that I'm not wasting movement and always engaging a target if possible. I'll slow down my movements to be able to actually shoot while moving. Is that the best way or should I focus more on exploding out of position and getting to the next one as quickly as possible?

I'm reasonably sure that Jake di Vita put it to the test and knows the timed runs to prove it, I won't even try to argue that point.

So I'll speak for myself only, you may draw a comparison or two.

I'm 6'5" or so, weigh in at 265 pounds (diet tips, anyone?) and explosive movement is just not possible.

Rather than sprinting, I try to keep moving whenever I can and that kinda works for me and my skill level.

If you have the time to practice shooting on the move, do it! Can't hurt. Try it on simple COF's and see if it feels comfy.

My believe is that rather tall shooters have a few advantages that shorter shooters are not aware of.

A friend of mine pointed out once that we usually shoot down onto standard height targets, shooting on the move while bending our knees, actually brings us down to perfect shooting height. This may or may not be a drastic edge but it sounded like an interesting thought nonetheless.

Long story short, try it - you might like it.

(I'm usually out of breath after sprinting...)

[Jake Di Vita]

It's true that it might be different for some people, but I'm more inclined to think there are a few things you may be neglecting.

Most of the time, even for the best shooters in the world, shooting on the move vs. planting is a wash. The situations I'm referring to are medium distance targets, poppers, and occasionally hard cover. If you have a target at arms length, by all means blast away - but if you even hit Alpha Charlie, you lose ground. Since we often see that points are outweighed by time (which is even more true for lower class shooters) shooting on the move is only a viable option when you know you will hit Alphas 10 out of 10 times. This is obviously magnified if you are shooting minor.

Throw up a short little stage and run it both ways 10 or so times, then figure the average hit factor. You'll see what I mean. It won't always bite you, but when it does you tend to lose more than you stand to gain if properly executed.

[Team Amish 1]

I see what you mean.

Yep, I pay attention to the level of difficulty that an array brings to the table.

The long, hard shots are for M/GM shooters to take on the move.

You got me curious, though.

Next time at the range, I might do a few time comparisons.

[G-ManBart]

One of the critical factors in deciding this is knowing, not thinking, what distance you can reliably engage a particular target at and still shoot virtually all Alphas (like 95% of the points) while moving. The other thing is whether you're really moving, or really just creeping along...if you're taking really tiny steps, you're not saving any time and may be losing time because it's nearly like stopping and starting for each shot. If you're able to take decent length steps and shoot a target, or a couple, on the move so you can skip stopping and starting, it might be worth it, but only if you're going to shoot Alphas. R,

[moverfive]

It is also going to depend on your shooting style. You will notice Max will spend more time shooting stationary than others....but then you watch Tilley and he is moving and shooting more.

The better example for this was the recent episode of the Pro-Am on Shooting USA. Did anyone notice how Little Max didn't move so much, especially as compared to the others?

[Sherwyn]

Sorry Jake,

Gotta disagree with you on this one.

I've put the timer and calculator to this many times and have found VERY few times that it is not an advantage to shoot while moving.

Now I do have to qualify this by saying that my movements while not shooting are not going to be anywhere as quick as yours but even putting the timer to my son Nick's shooting, we get the same results. Nick will tell yo that he always feels faster when stopping and shooting, but that's not what the timer says.

That said,

What I see happen most often is that taking even a single target on the move can sometimes drastically change a stage plan, and most just don't look at it.

Sherwyn

It's true that it might be different for some people, but I'm more inclined to think there are a few things you may be neglecting.

Most of the time, even for the best shooters in the world, shooting on the move vs. planting is a wash. The situations I'm referring to are medium distance targets, poppers, and occasionally hard cover. If you have a target at arms length, by all means blast away - but if you even hit Alpha Charlie, you lose ground. Since we often see that points are outweighed by time (which is even more true for lower class shooters) shooting on the move is only a viable option when you know you will hit Alphas 10 out of 10 times. This is obviously magnified if you are shooting minor.

Throw up a short little stage and run it both ways 10 or so times, then figure the average hit factor. You'll see what I mean. It won't always bite you, but when it does you tend to lose more than you stand to gain if properly executed.

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm not saying it won't be faster. I'm saying it usually ends up in a wash when you consider all the angles. What range/difficulty targets are you using? How are his/your points every time? Does he/you ever take extra shots? How much does he/you need to slow his movement/shooting down to hit alphas? If he/you does make a mistake, how much does it cost on average? And most importantly, how well does he/you execute during match time? It's also possible that the reason it seems better could have something to do with efficiency entering and leaving positions.

[muahdib4]

I'm not saying it won't be faster. I'm saying it usually ends up in a wash when you consider all the angles. What range/difficulty targets are you using? How are his/your points every time? Does he/you ever take extra shots? How much does he/you need to slow his movement/shooting down to hit alphas? If he/you does make a mistake, how much does it cost on average? And most importantly, how well does he/you execute during match time? It's also possible that the reason it seems better could have something to do with efficiency entering and leaving positions.

I think efficiency entering and leaving a postion is really what I'm talking about I guess. Shooting at, say, a close target while still moving into position rather than moving to that position, stopping and shooting. Same thing moving out of position. Just over the matches I've been to so far and my practice sessions (both live and dry-fire)I've been trying to find more efficient ways to do things. Moving to a position and setting prior to shooting seems to be wasted time unless, as has been said, you can't make Alphas while still moving. I've found that unless it's a longer target I can engage them while still moving and call Alphas as well as make them. Now, if it's a longer target I can't do that...yet.

[pries81]

I'm not saying it won't be faster. I'm saying it usually ends up in a wash when you consider all the angles. What range/difficulty targets are you using? How are his/your points every time? Does he/you ever take extra shots? How much does he/you need to slow his movement/shooting down to hit alphas? If he/you does make a mistake, how much does it cost on average? And most importantly, how well does he/you execute during match time? It's also possible that the reason it seems better could have something to do with efficiency entering and leaving positions.

Good points! I consider this carefully when walking stages. I recently took a class with Max M and Travis T. and was surprised by what they didn't shoot on the move (in that match)- hardcover, no shoots even they're close (and that's subjective). I started to copy this and just try to move in and out of position more efficiently. medium distance targets (ten yards) and some poppers I'll try to move on if they're wide open full targets. I that case I save about a half second per array.

[Flexmoney]

I found our how rusty I was when I went and shot the Area 5 match recently.

One of the most rusty tools in my tool box was shooting (well) on the move.

In other words, I am with Jake.

(and remember, this question is posted in the BEginner's section)

[rgkeller]

The most important issues with saving time on a movement stage are the abilities to engage targets while entering a shooting position and quickly leaving a shooting position for the next.

[Ramas]

It deppends...

1. HF. if HF is high you should be moving.

2. Your skills. If you can hit while moving, do it!

3. Surface. If it is hard you should move, if it is loose you better engage targets stationary. (of course if you can hit while moving)

[mildot1]

Just a C class shooter here but I pay attention to what I'm told.

I took the Max and Travis class last year and Quoting Max to the best of my memory " the distance and difficulty of the target determines the manner in which you engage it"

I take that to mean this, If you have the skill to make the shot on the move do it. If you are going to get a high number of d's or misses trying to shoot on the move you should probably try to work on getting from position A to B quickly and shoot them stationary. This is a skill we all need to have for certain arrays.

I have been looking back over my scores and seeing a high "A" count but slower times. Last weekend I made myself shoot and move, resulted in a much higher hit factor and I only dropped a few extra A's. A little over 76% for the match which is probably my best effort so far.

The only way to get to carnegie hall is practice!!!!!!

Good Luck

Edited June 22, 2010 by mildot1

[Ron Ankeny]

(and remember, this question is posted in the BEginner's section)

That's a good point. Sam and I spent a considerable amount of time putting shooting on the move vs. sprint-plant-shoot to the test. For our shooting style, temperament, etc., it is almost always better (higher HF) to shoot on the move. That includes shooting while leaving and while entering a position. Then again, both of us shoot well on the move.