Popper Calibration Challenge question.

[chbrow10]

Okay, Here the situation. This is a Level II match. The COF is a field course through a shoot house. Targets are engaged through ports and the like. There are three poppers that can only be seen through one port and that port is not the port that most people would end the COF on.

The competitor completes the COF, and while scoring, an RO (not the CRO, who is scoring targets) comes up to the competitor and says something like “you hit a popper and it didn’t fall, do you want to call for a calibration?” I’m paraphrasing, not a direct quote. The competitor says yes (since he has nothing to loose). Appendix C1, Item 6 does not say anything about the onus being on the RO to inform the competitor. I have no problem with the RO being a nice guy, as long as all the ROs on that stage are consistent nice guys to every single competitor. To the ROs credit, that target had not been scored yet, was probably being reset/painted, and couldn’t been seen by the competitor from where he finished the COF.

Question 1: Should the RO have come up to the competitor and asked him if he wanted to request a calibration?

While waiting for the RM to come with the calibration gun, the popper was inadvertently painted. I cannot see anywhere in the rules that says this affects anything at all, althought the RO was concerned about this.

Question 2: Did painting the popper affect the calibration?

Turns out the popper failed the calibration and the competitor got a reshoot. I wasn’t within earshot of where the shot was taking place, so I don’t know what was said regarding the popper being painted.

[yoshidaex]

question 2 falls under Appendix C1 6c

[Nik Habicht]

At a level II I probably wouldn't ask.....

At a club match I might --- if the shooter was new.....

[Tom D]

Appendix C1 6c c. The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibration.

In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it

stands must not be touched or interfered with by any person. If a

Match Official violates this rule, the competitor must reshoot the

course of fire. If the competitor or any other person violates this rule,

the popper will be scored as a miss and the rest of the course of fire

will be scored “as shot”. If the popper falls for any non-interference

reason (e.g. wind action), before it can be calibrated, Section 4.6 will

apply and a reshoot must be ordered.

It should have been scored a miss with no calibration.

Tom

[chbrow10]

ok, Question 2 has been answered. Thanks, I missed that in the rules. What about Question 1?

[JThompson]

ok, Question 2 has been answered. Thanks, I missed that in the rules. What about Question 1?

No

[Tom Mainus]

It is not the responsibility of the RO/CRO to ask the shooter if he wants the popper calibrated. The shooter has to ask for a calibration. At a level II match the clipboard guy should be watching for hits

etc, the poppers should also be painted between shooters. They should have a pretty good idea if it was a hit or a miss. Most "seasoned" shooters will ask for the calibration if they leave one standing at a level II..

Tom

[rvb]

Appendix C1 6c c. The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibration.

In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it

stands must not be touched or interfered with by any person. If a

Match Official violates this rule, the competitor must reshoot the

course of fire. If the competitor or any other person violates this rule,

the popper will be scored as a miss and the rest of the course of fire

will be scored “as shot”. If the popper falls for any non-interference

reason (e.g. wind action), before it can be calibrated, Section 4.6 will

apply and a reshoot must be ordered.

Honest Question...

If Steel is scored based on whether if fell and not based on where the bullet hit, do you have to see splatter before calling for a calibration? In other words... is painting it really interfering with it?

I guess I could take it to extreme and if I miss a popper, can I call for calibration just hoping it won't go down? Do you need "proof" it was hit before calling for calibration? What if it wasn't painted and had dozens of hit marks?

Not trying to stir the pot, but these came to mind while reading the responses...

-rvb

[Flexmoney]

Does everybody hate shooters all the sudden?

Lets take a look at this.

- The popper WAS hit and it didn't fall. That might be a clear indicator that it was faulty (we'd call that a clue). And, as we hear in the rest of the story, it proved to be faulty. The shooter deserves a fair shake at the cof. If it has a popper that doesn't fall with a hit, that isn't real fair...clearly.

- Why do we paint? One, it gives an equal presentation of the target to the shooters. Two, it allows for us to have a clear indication if the steel was hit or not. Here, we KNOW that the popper was hit, as the Range Officer so witnessed.

- If all that happened was a spritz of spray paint was put on the mark on the popper, I'm not going to call that as "touched or interfered with." (folks, if you are ever resetting a cof and there is steel left standing...don't go near it)

- The shooter (or delegate) is entitled to witness the scoring of their targets. During the shooting, a competitor calling a hit on a popper and then leaving the area it was visible from is not going to know it didn't fall properly. But, it is an issue, and the miss will be called. I think it is the Range Officers responsibility to ensure the competitor gets to inspect the target.

- If we are going to see a calibration called for...lets get on the horn and get the RM to the stage ASAP. If you wait a minute, he might hop on his 4-wheeler and be on the other side of the range. You could have a squad or two standing around for an extra 5-15 minutes.

- This isn't an issue to treat differently at a Level I match vs. a Level II or III match. The rules are the same. And, new shooter or old, they should all get the same treatment.

- One of the jobs of a Range Officer is to assist the shooter. From what I have heard on this thread, it sounds like some would want the shooter to have to eat a Mike...when the stage had failed them ?!?! (Then what...stick your tongue out at them and yell neener-neener-neeeeeener.)

[George Jones]

I guess I could take it to extreme and if I miss a popper, can I call for calibration just hoping it won't go down?

-rvb

The rule (C1, Item 6) says "does not fall when hit". To me that means that I will need to see evidence that it was indeed hit (even if marginally so by some edge evidence) before I would consent to a calibration challenge.

One of the many reasons why steel needs to be painted between shooters.

[DrawandDuck]

Does everybody hate shooters all the sudden?

Lets take a look at this.

- The popper WAS hit and it didn't fall. That might be a clear indicator that it was faulty (we'd call that a clue). And, as we hear in the rest of the story, it proved to be faulty. The shooter deserves a fair shake at the cof. If it has a popper that doesn't fall with a hit, that isn't real fair...clearly.

- Why do we paint? One, it gives an equal presentation of the target to the shooters. Two, it allows for us to have a clear indication if the steel was hit or not. Here, we KNOW that the popper was hit, as the Range Officer so witnessed.

- If all that happened was a spritz of spray paint was put on the mark on the popper, I'm not going to call that as "touched or interfered with." (folks, if you are ever resetting a cof and there is steel left standing...don't go near it)

- The shooter (or delegate) is entitled to witness the scoring of their targets. During the shooting, a competitor calling a hit on a popper and then leaving the area it was visible from is not going to know it didn't fall properly. But, it is an issue, and the miss will be called. I think it is the Range Officers responsibility to ensure the competitor gets to inspect the target.

- If we are going to see a calibration called for...lets get on the horn and get the RM to the stage ASAP. If you wait a minute, he might hop on his 4-wheeler and be on the other side of the range. You could have a squad or two standing around for an extra 5-15 minutes.

- This isn't an issue to treat differently at a Level I match vs. a Level II or III match. The rules are the same. And, new shooter or old, they should all get the same treatment.

- One of the jobs of a Range Officer is to assist the shooter. From what I have heard on this thread, it sounds like some would want the shooter to have to eat a Mike...when the stage had failed them ?!?! (Then what...stick your tongue out at them and yell neener-neener-neeeeeener.)

I like the way you think Flex (not that you care)....Then what if the RO want's it calibrated to assure the popper is working properly so it doesn't screw someone else??? The poooooper failed the calibration so there was an issue and it was corrected....the popper was not visible at the end of the course of fire so he may not realize it did not fall. I know I am off to the races when I hear a "DING".....If there are 3-4 poppers in a row and you wait until you see them fall you can assure you are loosing time......maybe it could have been worded diferently "shooter are you aware the steel did not fall?"

[ima45dv8]

I served as RM for the match in question. I was summoned to the stage, and while going to inspect the popper I was told it had been spray painted. The crew made it very clear that the only thing that touched it was a bullet fired by the shooter and the paint. As has been said the popper failed the challenge.

As we were adjusting it the crew decided a single member of their group would reset the poppers from then on to ensure consistency during reset. I then suggested the steel be checked during each reset using the hyper-accurate "knuckle test" and adjusted as needed. That's just good stage maintenance. After tweaking the bolt I shot it again with my special sub-minor ammo to ensure it would fall for the next competitor.

That being said, should the RO have asked that question? Usually I would think not but as has been stated the popper was well out of sight from the end of the CoF and I can see where in this case they may have simply been trying to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals ( <<<<<----- borrowed shamelessly from the RO Creed).

I know and trust these folks and if anyone thinks they did something wrong I can assure you they did it only with the best of intentions. In my day job managing the North American customer care center for a medical manufacturer I will gladly provide advice and additional training when one of my people does the wrong thing, but if their intent was to take care of a customer they'll never get grief for it.

[rvb]

I guess I could take it to extreme and if I miss a popper, can I call for calibration just hoping it won't go down?

-rvb

The rule (C1, Item 6) says "does not fall when hit". To me that means that I will need to see evidence that it was indeed hit (even if marginally so by some edge evidence) before I would consent to a calibration challenge.

One of the many reasons why steel needs to be painted between shooters.

can the evidence be a witness (RO? Score keeper? squad mate?)? does it have to be a bullet spatter?

-rvb

[chbrow10]

Seems the MD and RM for this match have chimed in. I was hoping to keep this rather anonomous, as my original intent was not to cause problems, but to learn from what happened so that I may be a better Range Officer myself. Seems the Benosphere is smaller than I thought.

I don't think the RO (or anyone else) did anything wrong, if that was implied, I apologize. In RO class, Troy made it clear that it was important to be consistent. That RO may have just opened himself up to be called out in case he didn't do the same thing for the next guy. I'd like to think that I'd also try to help the shooter accomplish his/her goals in the same way.

Turns out a reshoot was in order, so no harm nor foul.

[Nik Habicht]

It's a small world here, but don't stop asking questions. We all get to learn something from the answers....

[DrawandDuck]

No offense taken as your question was whether the RO should ask.. ..then as most rules questions it gets taken in many directions....I know the RO's running that stage or any of the stages would do the same for every competitor......

Randal

[George Jones]

can the evidence be a witness (RO? Score keeper? squad mate?)? does it have to be a bullet spatter?

-rvb

It's a scoring call, just like any other. Evidence on the target. RO, then CRO, then RM as necessary.

[dt1]

I was one of the RO's on the stage and can hopefully shed some light on the questions and comments noted above:

1) There were 4 poppers on the stage, none of which were visible to the shooter at the end of the COF.

2) It was very breezy the day of the match and the ground was soggy where the poppers were located. This combination of conditions made it necessary to constantly tweak the poppers. This was to prevent them from falling over inadvertently due to the wind (which happened on a few occasions making a re-shoot necessary) and to adjust for the base sinking into the mud making them out of spec on the heavy side.

3) The RO's were "nice guys" to everyone who came through. If a popper was hit and didn't fall, it was called to the affected shooter's attention and a calibration was offered.

4) The reason the popper in question was painted was because one of the shooters in the squad picked up a can of spray paint and, in an attempt to help reset the stage, painted the popper. Whenever shooters are encouraged to help paste and reset a stage, this type of thing can happen regardless of the level of the match.

I'm not sure of the specific rules in play in this circumstance, but everyone working that stage did their best to assure that the stage was run safely and fairly for all the shooters given the conditions we were operating under.

[George Jones]

Good job on making the best of a difficult situation. When faced with terrible weather conditions, everyone involved (shooters and staff) will usually do whatever it takes to get it over with safely and that is the most important point.

<Mud Bowl I and II flashbacks>......

[aztecdriver]

I was the RO in question - and indeed the CRO for the stage. I was concerned for the painting as I wanted nothing to "possibly interfere" with the in question popper. After I was informed that one of the staff was watching the painting and nothing else was touched - it was conveyed to the RM and it was determined to not have been interfered with - as he's already validated.

As for the questioning of the shooter - it was phrased as follows: "Shooter, one of the steel has a hit on it and is still standing. Do you wish to have a calibration?" I asked this of him so that I could, as flex said completely, get on the horn and get the RM there NOW to set the calibration while the rest of the course is being reset. The shooter was shooting 45 major single stack and the hit was a full 2 inches inside the calibration zone. One might have said the question was rhetorical. I'm sure he would have asked after hearing "3 steel/ 1 mike" and he looked at that splatter the size of a silver dollar.

If I did wrong by asking the question of the shooter as I did - ima45dv8 will definitely yell at me shortly (in an educational manner). The shooters reshoot actually hurt him according to what he told me during the awards, so the reshoot gods responded appropriately. Thanks for pointing out the questions though.

One thing I'd like to point out in that at one of my first major matches, I pointed out a no-shoot I had hit to the RO scoring that they had missed. I was told "word of advice, don't help the ROs". This sent me for a loop. I shot the course, and I earned the score --- all of it. Just because the RO missed a no-shoot doesn't mean I didn't earn it. At the same time - when a cof lets down a competitor by failing them (admittedly - full diameter hits on steel with 170+PF 45 auto is definitely failing) - is it fair that I sit there as CRO and let them take a mike on something they clearly hit well?

If I'm not to ask that question of shooters on my COF any longer, I'll not do so. Thanks for pointing it out though.

Also - I just saw your posting - you are right - this is a VERY tight group - and I'm happy to see you posting this on here. I ask the above questions here as I look at them from the RO perspective. I can say that we were extremely consistent in how we handled all of those situations. We had the first popper in that set of 3 do the same thing earlier to another shooter, and fail calibration.

no hard feelings I can assure you

Edited March 9, 2010 by aztecdriver

[pvhendrix]

I was the RO in question - and indeed the CRO for the stage. I was concerned for the painting as I wanted nothing to "possibly interfere" with the in question popper. After I was informed that one of the staff was watching the painting and nothing else was touched - it was conveyed to the RM and it was determined to not have been interfered with - as he's already validated.

As for the questioning of the shooter - it was phrased as follows: "Shooter, one of the steel has a hit on it and is still standing. Do you wish to have a calibration?" I asked this of him so that I could, as flex said completely, get on the horn and get the RM there NOW to set the calibration while the rest of the course is being reset. The shooter was shooting 45 major single stack and the hit was a full 2 inches inside the calibration zone. One might have said the question was rhetorical. I'm sure he would have asked after hearing "3 steel/ 1 mike" and he looked at that splatter the size of a silver dollar.

If I did wrong by asking the question of the shooter as I did - ima45dv8 will definitely yell at me shortly (in an educational manner). The shooters reshoot actually hurt him according to what he told me during the awards, so the reshoot gods responded appropriately. Thanks for pointing out the questions though.

One thing I'd like to point out in that at one of my first major matches, I pointed out a no-shoot I had hit to the RO scoring that they had missed. I was told "word of advice, don't help the ROs". This sent me for a loop. I shot the course, and I earned the score --- all of it. Just because the RO missed a no-shoot doesn't mean I didn't earn it. At the same time - when a cof lets down a competitor by failing them (admittedly - full diameter hits on steel with 170+PF 45 auto is definitely failing) - is it fair that I sit there as CRO and let them take a mike on something they clearly hit well?

If I'm not to ask that question of shooters on my COF any longer, I'll not do so. Thanks for pointing it out though.

Used as described, in my opinion it was a proper move on your part as RO, CRO. We as range officers are there to safely assist the shooters during the course of fire. Also to help ensure that the cof is administered as fairly as possible to all shooters. IMHO.

[Gary Stevens]

I always ask the shooter if they want a calibration. No reason to change now.

[JThompson]

I'm not in favor of screwing the shooter. If fact I have stated my opinion that I think further rules changes are needed to reduce the incidence where a popper causes the shooter to have a bad day. There was a thread on the Nats where a well known female shooter had a bad time with one. I think they have a great propensity for failure and adversely affect the outcome of many matches.

Show me where in the rules a RO is allowed to ask the competitor if they want a calibration. Before a calibration can be called for there needs to be a challenge. A challenge can only be made by the competitor and not an RO.

I feel there are better ways the rules could be written to deal with popper failures, but I don't see where I am allowed to make a challenge for a shooter. The way I read it I may grant a challenge, but I see no rule which would allow me to initiate one.

There are many rules I think could be tweaked and some I flat out don't agree with, but I don't pick and choose which ones to follow and which to ignore. The rules guiding what the ROs can and can not do are explicit and IMHO this could be considered coaching.

Many of you may not agree... I'd like a ruling on this one because I always want to give the shooter every chance that is in my power under the rules.

I'm going to fire this one off to John. I hope that he disagrees with my interpretation on this, I'd be happy to be wrong here.

JT

Edited March 10, 2010 by JThompson

[Flexmoney]

JT,

You (as RO) are not "making the challenge."

You are asking the shooter if they would like to make the challenge.

You (as RO) are doing your job because it is on you to assist the shooter, run a fair stage, and properly score the stage consistent to how it was shot.

The shooter is going to amp'd up a bit from just burning down the stage like a bolt of lightening (or, blissfully unaware of anything and looking for their brass ).

On any target that I am going to call a miss on (steel or paper)...or going to call a shot on a line...I always make sure to call the shooter to the attention of that target. The shooting is done. In fact, the cof is "over". So, there is no coaching involved.

I want the shooter to get a fair score. Making sure they are aware of what is going on, and what their options are, is a part of that.

[JThompson]

JT,

You (as RO) are not "making the challenge."

You are asking the shooter if they would like to make the challenge.

You (as RO) are doing your job because it is on you to assist the shooter, run a fair stage, and properly score the stage consistent to how it was shot.

The shooter is going to amp'd up a bit from just burning down the stage like a bolt of lightening (or, blissfully unaware of anything and looking for their brass ).

On any target that I am going to call a miss on (steel or paper)...or going to call a shot on a line...I always make sure to call the shooter to the attention of that target. The shooting is done. In fact, the cof is "over". So, there is no coaching involved.

I want the shooter to get a fair score. Making sure they are aware of what is going on, and what their options are, is a part of that.

Below from John Amidon

Jim,

If you refer to Appendix C1 item 6, it indicates the three options a competitor has should a popper not fall when hit, it also shows what the procedure is for the calibration officer when there is a challenge.

To make it short, the competitor calls for the challenge and not from suggestion by the RO as I agree, it could be considered coaching.

The RO/CRO doesn't need to see a hit, nor do they have the right to grant or deny a challenge, if the popper does not fall, hit or not, the competitor has the right to call for a calibration, the RO/CRO at that time would call the RM who is usually the calibration officer."

Regards,

John Amidon

Director NROI

USPSA/IPSC

Edited March 10, 2010 by JThompson