Brass

[pmclaine]

Intent is to buy a 650 this summer. Currently saving my brass to have a stockpile on hand. In order to eliminate some issues during the learning process I am limiting my stockpile to brass fired from my guns only. Furthermore I was going to keep my brass in 500 round lots bought by the case. I wanted to also stick with one headstamp Wnchester USA.

Finding Winchester USA tough to come by in my area and I also note it tends to be $30-$40 more per case than other manufacturers. Wal-Mart has some deals on Remington UMC (USA) ammo that I would like to jump on.

Am I thinking too much about my brass? From board lurking it appears most reloaders grab whatever is available and cycle it through their machines. I will still stick to brass fired from my guns only to avoid glocked ammo and eliminate the unknown life background of the brass (lots of reloaders at my range)while I learn this game.

Will switching headstamps cause any issues for a beginner? Is Remington good brass? For all I know it may be better than Winchester?

I think I should just buy the Remington keep it in its lot group of 500 and enjoy the savings.

[Chris Christian]

You didn't mention the calibers you'll be reloading, but generally speaking, if you are making target-type loads and not running at the upper pressure limits you won't have problems with mixing quality brass like Remington, Win, Fed or Speer. I would avoiad any nickle plated brass because it has a shot life span compared to brass cases. The only other factor is if you are loading right on the minimum PF line -- different headstamps can have slightly different internal volumes and produce differing velocities. One headstamp may be fine, while another chronos slower. This is very noticeable with .38 Spl... not so much with 9mm and .45.

Chris Christian

[Flexmoney]

Buy your press now. Quit wasting money on ammo. Save now.

[Joe4d]

You didnt mention caliber, power factor or sport.

Unless you are shooting bullseye or loading 9mm major I say you are wasting time worrying about brass. Most american brass is fine, most foreign brass is fine, Personally I wouldnt mail order glocked brass but if I pick it up and can cull the ones with defects I dont have an issue with it.

[pmclaine]

I wish I had the funds to buy now. I have a Blue Press catalog in all four reading rooms of my house and each is well dog eared from dreaming. I have a one time windfall coming this summer and BE will be getting a call.

I'll be loading .40 S&W and .45 ACP, (eventually 30-06). I will not be competing but I would like to take advantage of the better quality ammo reloading is capable of producing. I dont intend to test the limits of the reloading tables for either caliber. I want a consistent range round capable of knocking over a steel plate and making a hole in paper.

My goals are small right now. If at 25 yards I can more or less consistently keep a magazine from a Sig 226 or Colts Commander anywhere in the black on an NRA 25 yard slow fire target (at 25 yards)I will be ready to expand my now meager skills.

One reply referred to Remington UMC as "quality" ammo so I believe I will partake of the $40 savings and be confident that my lot of 500 cases will make their way through the press without creating problems for me.

[Sarge]

I'll second Flex on this. Do what ever it takes to get a press now. You will pay for a very good loader in short order in my opinion.

As for brass, it is important to know what you are going to shoot. I'm guessing 9 or 40 though since you say walmart has it. I loaded thousands of "Glocked" 9mm this year and it loads just fine. 40 is worse for the buldge as far as I know and takes a little more work to get it resized but it is still easy enough to do.

As mentioned, most brass you will find is good to go especially for 9 minor. UMC is good brass.

I would pick up every piece of brass you can get your hands on. At least buy a tumbler for now and start cleaning and inspecting.

For 9 minor it is really not critical to sort by headstamp or lot number, etc..

[38supPat]

Consider getting a 550b if you haven't reloaded before, it can be a bit easier to learn without the auto index feature of the 650 and it can load more calibers, particularly rifle. It is also cheaper, use that money to buy some brass and you are good to go. Some rough math, without hunting around for better prices show you could reload .45 for $18 a box (50) on the first load after purchasing brass, and $11 a box after that. How does that compare to what you are paying now?

Alternately find someone who reloads now, and see if you can use their press and get them to teach you how to reload. Offer to buy them primers or something in return...its still cheaper.

As to sorting your brass, keep doing it the way you are going. Different cases have different capacities, different rims and different extractor grooves. Why make it hard for your gun to run consistently?

[fred fague]

+1 with Sarge.

Inspecting brass is the most important part of the process. Check for dirt inside, bad rims, cracks, A Merc cases are junk to stay away from because they will stick in the barrel chamber.

This forum contains the best info on reloading and Dillon presses.

I have used a SDB, 550, 650, and a friends 1050. I like the 650 best and load 9mm and .45. I have one 650 setup for 9mm and the other for .45.

Try to find someone with a 650 to test. The roller handle and strong mount are a must for me. Look at buying a full length sizer die for 9mm and .40. Buy case gages for each caliber and case gage every loaded round inspecting each round for cracks, high primer, etc.

Good Luck!!

[dbxdm9]

I have lots of trouble with Glock'd brass in 9mm. Nearly every case will get a rim/bulge during re-sizing. So, I now only reload what I shoot myself. All WWB and Rem UMC. No problems.

Edited February 15, 2010 by dbxdm9

[G-ManBart]

I'll be loading .40 S&W and .45 ACP, (eventually 30-06). I will not be competing but I would like to take advantage of the better quality ammo reloading is capable of producing.

My goals are small right now. If at 25 yards I can more or less consistently keep a magazine from a Sig 226 or Colts Commander anywhere in the black on an NRA 25 yard slow fire target (at 25 yards)I will be ready to expand my now meager skills.

One reply referred to Remington UMC as "quality" ammo so I believe I will partake of the $40 savings and be confident that my lot of 500 cases will make their way through the press without creating problems for me.

Just to temper your expectations somewhat, the typical hobbyist reloader (pretty much all of us here) isn't capable of producing higher quality ammo than what ammunition manufacturers sell. We can tune loads to our guns and to particular requirements (power factor), etc, but it isn't higher in quality. Our own ammo may be a better choice for the game we're playing, but from a technical standpoint, it's still not better quality.

For the type of shooting you're doing, I wouldn't be worried about using both Remington and Win brass....both are good quality and any case capacity difference between the two of them will be small enough to make absolutely no difference on the user end for informal pistol shooting. If you were trying to get max velocity, or just squeak by PF, I'd say stick with one brand, but for what you're planning, get as much of both and use them until they split! I haven't reloaded many Rem cases in .40, but I know Win cases last a long time...you can reload them until you can't read the headstamp, and eventually they'll split, but it takes a while. R,

[LPatterson]

I've got a 17 & 26 & got all the 9mm from the last GSSF match and haven't had trouble running it through an EGW die with a little One Shot. Got 24's and a Lee undersize die so I think people am making Glock's bulge into a mountain that doesn't exist.

[pmclaine]

I'll be loading .40 S&W and .45 ACP, (eventually 30-06). I will not be competing but I would like to take advantage of the better quality ammo reloading is capable of producing.

My goals are small right now. If at 25 yards I can more or less consistently keep a magazine from a Sig 226 or Colts Commander anywhere in the black on an NRA 25 yard slow fire target (at 25 yards)I will be ready to expand my now meager skills.

One reply referred to Remington UMC as "quality" ammo so I believe I will partake of the $40 savings and be confident that my lot of 500 cases will make their way through the press without creating problems for me.

Just to temper your expectations somewhat, the typical hobbyist reloader (pretty much all of us here) isn't capable of producing higher quality ammo than what ammunition manufacturers sell. We can tune loads to our guns and to particular requirements (power factor), etc, but it isn't higher in quality. Our own ammo may be a better choice for the game we're playing, but from a technical standpoint, it's still not better quality.

For the type of shooting you're doing, I wouldn't be worried about using both Remington and Win brass....both are good quality and any case capacity difference between the two of them will be small enough to make absolutely no difference on the user end for informal pistol shooting. If you were trying to get max velocity, or just squeak by PF, I'd say stick with one brand, but for what you're planning, get as much of both and use them until they split! I haven't reloaded many Rem cases in .40, but I know Win cases last a long time...you can reload them until you can't read the headstamp, and eventually they'll split, but it takes a while. R,

Thank you all for your replies, I appreciate your time.

The additional comments concerning my press choice and general reloading advice are valuable. I have been considering this for awhile now and feel confident that, though overkill, the 650 will be the machine that will give me the most long term satisfaction. I will heed concerns about the complexity of the auto index features of the machine for a newbie. My Excel work sheet of things to buy is impressive and reflects my belief that if there is a tool out there to make a task easier just buy it once, own it forever, and dont face the failure/cost of trying to Mickey Mouse it. I will talk to BE for recommendations and value his advice/opinion.

Gman Bart from your present post as well as reading others on this forum I sense you are accutely tuned to the nuances of the English language and the subtleties are important to you. I agree with your clarification of "quality". Assuming the manufacturer follows quality control and best business practices I doubt my previously fired reload would be superior to a virgin product. Brass must degrade, primer pockets open, weakness is introduced with each working of the case. "Custom tailored to my specific firearm" was the intended message. If your appreciation of details carries into your reloading I imagine your powder drops are exact case to case. This is meant to be complimentary not a criticism.

I will be adding Remington brass to my stockpile. I will keep it in a seperate lot and load by lot. I will check the rounds for sizing, belling, seating, crimp to see if dies need to be adjusted from the Winchester settings. I just wish that WM would get some 250 packs of .40 SW now.

Regards the cost per box comments. I dont think reloading will save me money. My budget will stay the same. I just want to shoot twice as much.

[twodownzero]

I 2nd the suggestion that you get off the internet, stop over thinking this, stop wasting money on ammo, and get your press NOW.

[sifu128]

I second that! Go get one today!!! Just from my experience ( I have been reloading for about 3 years now). I was going to start of with the 550 and decided to get the 650 because at that time the case feeder wasn't out yet for the 550. It was WELL worth the money and I grew in to the machine. I know a lot of people will laugh at this but it was taking me one hour to do 100 rounds and now I am up to the 600 - 700 range if I push it, however I like to take my time.

If you purchase the reloader from here (which you should ), make sure you look for the "As It Should Be" Upgrade as this is a must!!

[bdpaz]

I suggest that, instead of deciding ahead of time what the critical variables will be, you should experiment for yourself. Not that separating Winchester from Remington and loading in lots is wrong, but you are just assuming that it will be helpful without any facts to back it up. You'll have a better understanding of how it all really works if you test your theories.

For example, load up 50 rounds of identical cases and group the 25 that are closest to the same OAL and the 25 that are the widest variance, load 25 rounds of mixed headstamp cases, and while you're at it throw in 25 rounds of identical cases but intentionally vary the powder charge by a tenth +/- (assuming you are using a mid-range load where that variation won't put you over the maximum). Then go shoot 25 yard groups from a rest and compare the results from the different batches.

[Sarge]

I'll be loading .40 S&W and .45 ACP, (eventually 30-06). I will not be competing but I would like to take advantage of the better quality ammo reloading is capable of producing.

Gman Bart from your present post as well as reading others on this forum I sense you are accutely tuned to the nuances of the English language and the subtleties are important to you.

[jaredr]

/thread drift/

I'll be loading .40 S&W and .45 ACP, (eventually 30-06). I will not be competing but I would like to take advantage of the better quality ammo reloading is capable of producing.

My goals are small right now. If at 25 yards I can more or less consistently keep a magazine from a Sig 226 or Colts Commander anywhere in the black on an NRA 25 yard slow fire target (at 25 yards)I will be ready to expand my now meager skills.

One reply referred to Remington UMC as "quality" ammo so I believe I will partake of the $40 savings and be confident that my lot of 500 cases will make their way through the press without creating problems for me.

Just to temper your expectations somewhat, the typical hobbyist reloader (pretty much all of us here) isn't capable of producing higher quality ammo than what ammunition manufacturers sell. We can tune loads to our guns and to particular requirements (power factor), etc, but it isn't higher in quality. Our own ammo may be a better choice for the game we're playing, but from a technical standpoint, it's still not better quality.

/snip/

would respectfully disagree with this, at least when it comes to rifle ammo (and maybe to qualify that further, rifle ammo at a specific price point).

i've been loading mostly .223 recently, driver was not a desire to improve on quality of factory ammo but instead to just have enough ammunition to support a practice schedule without going broke. using range pickup brass, I can reload 1,000 rounds of .223 for less than $150 vs. $400 or more for brass-cased factory ammo (acknowledge I'm not including my investment in time here). that's mixed headstamp brass, hornady or montana gold 55 gr ball, and 24.5 gr of AA2230.

came into some UMC 55 gr ball and was disappointed to see quite a few more flyers on my 100 yard drills. put a 14x scope on my ar and did some shooting from the bench, discovered that remington UMC was regularly going into 3.5" or worse at 100 yards (5 round groups). For the hell of it, tried some wolf I had lying around and I got 2.5"- 3". Went back to my mixed brass reloads and found that I was getting about 1.5" (had at one point thought I was getting 1" or less, but think i probably just needed to shoot more groups for an honest figure).

I wasn't disciplined enough to expand the "study" to include other brands of factory ammo, or other rifles, so maybe all this shows is that my AR doesn't like UMC or wolf. either way, it looks like (at least for this gun), the ammo from my 1050 is actually yielding better results then the more affordable factory ammo. as always, ymmv.

-jaredr

[bdpaz]

Continuing the thread drift, I propose we ban the use of "quality" as an adjective and say what we mean. If hand loads are more accurate in your gun than factory ammo, then say (or write) "more accurate".

I looked up "quality" in the dictionary and it is a pretty useless word, vague without specific standards of reference ("the degree of excellence of something" - by what measurement ???). So I don't think it will be missed.

Although I will say I feel this was a quality post .

[diablodawg]

I bought my first machine (a 550B) last August and have loaded about 4K of .45 through it thus far. I load with BBI bullets, Wolf Primers and WST powder. ($100/K bullet + $18/K powder + $25/K primer = $143/K) Wolf is about $400/K for a savings of $1028 versus reloads. The machine has already paid for itself. Accuracy is certainly good enough for our game; and more than fine for my skill level. The faster you buy the machine, the faster you start saving money. Unless you are a very good shooter, or running borderline pressure, the internal dimensions are not anything to be too concerned about. I run all manner of mixed headstamp garbage through and have no issues, and very few cracked cases or other problems.

Heed others' advice: buy the machine now, and don't worry about mixed casings until they start making you worried.

[pmclaine]

I certainly appreciate the buy it now and start saving mentality. I am going to wait though until I have my books read, bench built, plenty of lighting, a comfortable place to work and a gigantic pile of Dillon boxes sitting all over my basement. Right now my order total is around $3400.00 (start gasping and zinging me here). I am one stop shopping, there will be no savings going to Frankfort Arsenal, Brownells and every other place trying to save a buck and spending more on postage or waiting on back orders. Everything will be blue. The Fed Ex man will be tired after my order. I will buy things people say are not really necessary or a newbie has no right to own but that others wish they had, or could have bought.

Buying now will cause me to forgo the learning, half ass the bench, neglect the lighting and have an uncomfortable workstation that I will never redo because everything is already in place and kids, work, etc. will more important than a remodel. In the mean time I will spend money on factory ammo that will hopefully be a good candidate for reloading. If Remington UMC is acceptable brass in the opinion of the experienced forum my savings will be $40.00/500 and that $40 will go toward my summer machine purchase. I will limit my variables during my practical education by case lotting. I will care about this in advance rather than when pulling 500 messed up reloads.

No venom is meant by my response. The knowledge of the responders is impressive and everyone wants to just ensure I have a good reloading experience. I'm just trying to keep focused on the target question - Is Remington UMC (yellow bulk pack made in USA) "suitable" (I wont use the nebulous word quality) brass for reloading - No primer pocket issues, splits on 2 reload, etc.? I think the consensus has been that it is suitable brass.

[bdpaz]

Two final comments.

...Buying now will cause me to forgo the learning, ...

Make sure your learning without personal experience doesn't lock you in a set up that doesn't work for you. There isn't one correct configuration that is ideal for everyone, and until you've done it yourself you won't know what suits you. I started with a 550 and then added a 1050, but if I had it to do again I'd seriously consider multiple Square Deals instead of the 1050. At the time the idea didn't even occur to me because I hadn't come across it in my research.

I will limit my variables during my practical education by case lotting. I will care about this in advance rather than when pulling 500 messed up reloads.

Now matter how much research you do first, if you load 500 hundred rounds without testing you will have problems. After making any change (other than mixing case brands ) I always test 25 or so and even then only load enough for the next match just to be sure I'm happy with them.

edited to correct a typo

Edited February 18, 2010 by bdpaz

[MemphisMechanic]

How the heck are you up to $3400 on a 650?

I can see it if you buy all your caliber changes at once and everything. But the AS IT SHOULD BE xl650 and scale and everything set me back roughly 1100-1200 to load only 9mm, and I didnt have anything at all.

[Putty]

Specifically tuned brass to a handgun is not essential. High power rifle, yes. Then I would spend the time and the money on LE Wilson sizer die made to your chamber fired brass as well as neck turned prior to firing. A pistol IMO, should run just about all brass if properly re-loaded. Or just roll size everything. I had a little problem with storm lake barrel chambers being a little too tight, so I had the chamber reamed to spec and everything runs.

[diablodawg]

How the heck are you up to $3400 on a 650?

I can see it if you buy all your caliber changes at once and everything. But the AS IT SHOULD BE xl650 and scale and everything set me back roughly 1100-1200 to load only 9mm, and I didnt have anything at all.

I am curious about this as well. I only bought a 550, but would have had 2300 bucks left if I had 3400 to blow on reloading... thats alot of primers, bullets and powder. Or a new limited gun.

Just sayin'

[pmclaine]

Agreed on the idea of not pumping out a bunch of ammo without testing. My plan is to start with a one pound can of powder (something with a history, something clean, something name brand, something suitable for .40 and .45 - I will try to replicate the design/performance of winchester white box at first than when I feel confident with the machine and the process I will start to play with recipes/components). First expiremental rounds will be produced in quantities of 10-20 with powder varied from low to high to see what works for my specific guns.

The idea of multiple square deals does sound attractive but my desire to load 30-06 and have the powder check as well as case feed makes the 650 my tool of choice. I am hoping that by buying a tool head for each process I can maximize the utility and minimize the set up times.

I will not be tuning my handgun brass. I just want to be sure the feed stock I buy now is not crap.

My order right now does include a complete quick change for each of my three calibers and as I have never reloaded before I will need all the peripheral items scale, gauges, vib equipment, etc. Than I will be buying the not necessary but luxury items - Primer filler, Dillon case trimmer (with tool head)for 30-06, caliber change stands, blah, blah, blah. Amongst all the gear I am buying the only truly unnecessary item might possibly be the machine cover but my kids will have access to the basement and perhaps the cover with its lock will be enough to promote out of sight out of mind - if not I will have to get a rottweiler which is even more expensive. Reloading is a tool geeks dream. I agree that the cost is high - perhaps Dillon or BE can roll back prices?

Edited February 19, 2010 by pmclaine