Martial Gamesman

[Filishooter]

If anyone caught Duane's article in the Blue Press it was good read. The article had to do with a martial artist's mindset vs a competitive shooters mindset and their proficiency with a pistol. In the article Duane states that he is both a martial artist and a gamesman. I feel the same way about myself. I have been studying martial arts for over 25 years and am an avid competitor in IDPA, USPSA and 3 Gun. In the article Duane states that the martial artist practices because of a need for self-defense and a good competitive shooter practices because of a love of shooting and that the competitive shooter excels at skill because of this love. This is were I beg to differ. One does not devote a lifetime to the study of martial arts because they fear an attack or for only the benefits of self defense. Ask almost any high ranking martial artist why they do what they do, while they may have started down the martial path due to a need for self-defense, you would be hard pressed not to feel the sincere love in their explanation of "why". I do agree that competition brings out the best, but not because competition shoots love what they do more than martial artists (how can you quantify one person's love of something over another?)

So why do competition shooters excel at plain shooting skill vs martial artists? In my opinion most martial artist like to build boxes. They like to establish boundaries and work within a system. In many ways they are trapped by that system and its limitations. Its not about the shooter anymore, but more about how the shooter performs within that system of combat. In addition, there are many skills martial artists practice that don't have anything to do with shooting a pistol. For example, I have considerable impact, edged, and empty-hand skill that very few practical shooters could match. Martial artist also study tactics of self defense. In contrast, a top level practical shooter has one clear, easy to measure goal, shoot faster and more accurate than your competition. Most are not bound by a set system and instead are open to different types of learning. Whatever works to make you shoot faster/more accurate. You will also see less loyalties in practical shooting than in a martial art.

Being a practitioner of both has allowed me to expand my skills in both arenas.

[rvb]

In the article Duane states that the martial artist practices because of a need for self-defense and a good competitive shooter practices because of a love of shooting and that the competitive shooter excels at skill because of this love. This is were I beg to differ. One does not devote a lifetime to the study of martial arts because they fear an attack or for only the benefits of self defense. Ask almost any high ranking martial artist why they do what they do, while they may have started down the martial path due to a need for self-defense, you would be hard pressed not to feel the sincere love in their explanation of "why".

I think you are taking the "martial artist" phrase too literally. I felt he was saying the same thing you are... In his article I read "martial artist" with respect to shooting as being someone who practices shooting for the defensive reasons, where a competitor shoots for the love of shooting... and that they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. That's how I interpreted his article, not as a literal personal who practices martial arts.

When reading it, I thought that phrase might not be the best description since (as you mention), many martial artists compete and practice for love/obsession of the activity just like us shooters.

The point I took away was that you can shoot for the love of shooting and competing, knowing that you are improving your defensive skills.

I'll bet "martial arts" and "practical shooting" are very very similar... people are drawn to it for the self defense aspects, but stay for the life-long lessons and goal to improve.

-rvb

ps Good Article, Duane (as always!).

-rvb

Edited February 12, 2010 by rvb

[Sam]

When I read the article, I understood that the point was about having a real zeal, love, or passion to study the martial art, whatever martial art that may be.

[Filishooter]

RVB,

There are more similarities than differences in the MA/Practical shooting connection. Going beyond Martial practice, take a look at the word Kung Fu. Most people relate that to martial arts but what it really means is "skill of achievement." It is applied towards cooking, calligraphy and certainly practical shooting. It is more a concept of training for excellence.

In regards to Duane's use of martial art representing "combative use of the pistol" it's still considered a martial art (or a system of practices and training for combat) so Duane was correct in referring to it as such. As I mentioned, sometimes the system becomes bigger than the person practicing, so you have your folks still training,promoting and teaching the Cooper, Applegate, Fairbairn, etc. systems of combat. In comparison, practical shooters aren't married to a particular system of shooting.

And yes Duane, excellent article...I was just trying to expand on what you started.

Thanks,

Andy

[Sutemi]

I too read that article yesterday. I found his "martial artists are motivated by fear" statement odd. It was my impression that he was addressing martial artists who shoot, which isn't really an apt generalization. I believe shooting is as much a martial art as anything being taught at the corner dojos/dojang/kwoons of Anytown, Anywhere. Some martial artists shoot with little passion or gusto, while others apply the same love and zeal for shooting that they do to martial art practice. But a martial artist is definitively a person who applies themselves to the practice of any martial (or combative) skill, including shooting, with more than just the desire to be merely competent. I've seen "Gamesmen" who were pretty lackadaisical about developing their skills. I think it boils down to these two approaches to any martial skillset.

For example, certain shooting forum posters write about "combat accuracy", as in "who cares what (this or that) pistol groups at fifty yards, it's got adequate "combat accuracy", which to me usually denotes an inability to hit an 8" plate at more than the seven yards that "most armed encounters take place at." As Filishooter said, certain people (who I personally don't feel should be properly labeled as "martial artists" or anything else) establish systems and methodologies that can limit their standards and expectations. Pure sport shooters don't impose such limitations on themselves, pursuing only clearly definable improvement.

Duane presented an interesting perspective and I agree that the best way to maximize one's potential is by freeing oneself from any arbitrary set of rules or limitations in the pursuit of your goals, and to never say "good enough."

P.S. I in no way intend to denigrate the multitude of very worthy shooters who don't pursue shooting with the nearly obsessive joy that I and others do. Anyone who achieves competence in shooting is a boon to society.

[Calmwater]

I haven't received my new blue press yet, but I look forward to this article. The last issue had a couple of nasty letters to Duane from readers critiquing a prior article he wrote on using a slide stop as a release as opposed to reaching over the top of the gun. One letter told him to stop gaming and get some REALITY training. These are the same kind of idiots who practice pretending to stick their fingers in peoples eyes and think they could fight a prizefighter effectively. Fantasy world......

edited for grammar

Edited February 12, 2010 by Calmwater

[Chris Christian]

This is probably going to get me in trouble, but I've been there before. "Gamers?" I've heard a number of definitions. The one I like the best is "A gamer is what IDPA Marksmen call IDPA Masters". As for "martial arts"...

the term denotes one who is proficient in martial matters. Many think of "martial arts" as Asian techniques (Chinese Kung Fu, the various forms of Japanese Karate, Ju Jitsu, Ninjitsu, etc). But, many other countries have their own versions of martial combat techniques. The Russians have Sambo, the French have Savate and knife fighting, the Filipinos have a two handed butterfly knife discipline, the English developed bare knuckle boxing (sounds old fashion, but see how long you last against an expert if he gets close enough to strike you),and there are others. The only true American martial art is pistol craft... gun fighting. The American developed techniques of pistol craft have now spread worldwide. It's a matter of employing the gun quickly, accurately, and repeatably, from common on the body carry positions. So, a martial gamer is an odd... but maybe accurate... term. If you are running an IDPA COF (or even USPSA) you are practicing a martial art. I went through a LFI 1 class with a Seventh Dan karate black belt who had very limited handgun experience. At the end of the course, he agreed that pistol craft is a martial art.

Chris Christian

[MarkCO]

I guess I took it to mean: Shooting Martial Artist = IDPA shooters & Shooting Competitor = USPSA.

I use the word "Love" sparingly and while my favorite thing to do, at least in public, is shoot, I would not say I "love" it, but pretty close. I got into shooting matches to improve my "defensive shooting skills." I soon learned that shooting is a miniscule part of "self-defense". I have spent more time studying topics such as combat, warrior, defense, weapon retention, HtH fighting, offense, avoidance, preparedness, Weaver, Iso, Enos, Burkett, Leatham, Cooper, Cirillo, planning, weapon systems, verbal judo, diversions, VIP protection, driving, structure hardening, light, denial of advantage, kidnap, arson, criminal mind, averaging persona, etc., etc., than "How to Shoot Better." I am a tactician in almost everything in which I am involved. That, to some degree imputes a defense, or martial arts perspective as well as a gamesmanship perspective. When the goal is to win, in life, competiton, an attack or combat, some elements of gamesmanship and martial arts must be employed.

Shooting matches of any kind will give you some increased level of proficiency. If the goal is only to improve combat or defensive shooting competency, then a person should expose themselves to as many different shooting disciplines as possible, and will necessarily not excel at any of them. This is becasue he will avoid all forms of repetition that may negatively influence proper response to a lethal force encounter. Combat/defense shooting effectiveness involes SO MUCH more than just match shooting benefit can impart. While I think Duane is close, I beleive that, to varying mixes, ALL of us that shoot matches are Martial Gamesmen and that he is just describing the "average" match shooter.

[Filishooter]

Actually, I don't really think of myself as a Martial Gamesman but more of a Gamer Operator.

[JFlowers]

I took this article completely differently, maybe because I sort of blew by the whole "martial artist" as a descriptive term.

I took Duane to be talking about the differnce between the gun owner/carrier who, like our derogatory description of some government officers, fire 50 rounds a year but own or carry and consider themselves competent. A subset of these people are those who consider themselves well beyond competent and into the uber expert realm. This is in opposition to the IDPA, USPSA, SASS, NRA Action, games ad nauseum, comptetitive shooter who fires 5,000-150,000 rounds a year and is always striving to improve their skills. The first group shoot out of some external reason - fear, job, expectations, respect of their internet peers - while the second group shoot out of a love of shooting and internal competitiveness.

Personally, I will just consider myself a striving lower level Gamesmen and hope I never need the Martial aspects.

[Duane Thomas]

The one I like the best is "A gamer is what IDPA Marksmen call IDPA Masters".

LOLing. Literally.

[RobMoore]

My wife just asked me "what is so funny".

[2MoreChains]

I like that definition of a gamer as well. It's one of the more polite ones, but very apt...

[2MoreChains]

Apologies for the off-topic, but I didn't get a chance to read the article because I just realized I don't get Blue Press anymore. But I own a Dillon... whine, whine...

Does buying from our host not qualify one to get the magazine???

ETA: disregard. Just saw the other thread on DT's article and Blue Press' phone number.

Edited February 13, 2010 by 2MoreChains

[Carmoney]

When I read the article, I understood that the point was about having a real zeal, love, or passion to study the martial art, whatever martial art that may be.

Wow, Sam........you said that so beautifully!!

[Duane Thomas]

It's a habit of his.

[JimmyZip]

I guess I took it to mean: Shooting Martial Artist = IDPA shooters & Shooting Competitor = USPSA.

I use the word "Love" sparingly and while my favorite thing to do, at least in public, is shoot, I would not say I "love" it, but pretty close. I got into shooting matches to improve my "defensive shooting skills." I soon learned that shooting is a miniscule part of "self-defense". I have spent more time studying topics such as combat, warrior, defense, weapon retention, HtH fighting, offense, avoidance, preparedness, Weaver, Iso, Enos, Burkett, Leatham, Cooper, Cirillo, planning, weapon systems, verbal judo, diversions, VIP protection, driving, structure hardening, light, denial of advantage, kidnap, arson, criminal mind, averaging persona, etc., etc., than "How to Shoot Better." I am a tactician in almost everything in which I am involved. That, to some degree imputes a defense, or martial arts perspective as well as a gamesmanship perspective. When the goal is to win, in life, competiton, an attack or combat, some elements of gamesmanship and martial arts must be employed.

Shooting matches of any kind will give you some increased level of proficiency. If the goal is only to improve combat or defensive shooting competency, then a person should expose themselves to as many different shooting disciplines as possible, and will necessarily not excel at any of them. This is becasue he will avoid all forms of repetition that may negatively influence proper response to a lethal force encounter. Combat/defense shooting effectiveness involes SO MUCH more than just match shooting benefit can impart. While I think Duane is close, I beleive that, to varying mixes, ALL of us that shoot matches are Martial Gamesmen and that he is just describing the "average" match shooter.

Two people that I knew growing up, who first introduced me to this sport had survived LOTS of combat. Both of them were gamers. Both of them loved to shoot, and both of them constantly emphasized that really proficient gun handling skills were a major component to survivability in real world situations.

I'm not denying what you say is true, just saying that knowing a paltform very well will only enhance your ability to use that platform to its potential.

Would you rather be faster and smoother with realoads and transitions, or slower? I think what Dwayne was saying is that those of us who train for the love of firearms competition, often take that training to a higher degree than those that must as a part of their vocation.

[mda]

Apologies for the off-topic, but I didn't get a chance to read the article because I just realized I don't get Blue Press anymore. But I own a Dillon... whine, whine...

Does buying from our host not qualify one to get the magazine???

ETA: disregard. Just saw the other thread on DT's article and Blue Press' phone number.

Just go to their website and register for it they send it to you for free don't even have to own anything Dillon either.

MDA

[Loves2Shoot]

People do things because they want to, lumping them into groups is very hard to do accurately.

I studied martial arts before beginning competitive shooting, not because I needed to learn to fight, I had 3 brothers pretty close in age growing up, so I knew how to fight. I was never afraid of getting beat up, I was a decent athlete and am not a small guy and growing up poor in the country makes you a bit hard. My bio dad is a a drunk, but did teach me how to really fight, that is do ANYTHING you need to win and look at everything around you as a weapon.

I'm just the kind of person who likes to push my limits and the martial arts was a great outlet to develop my mind, body and spirit in a safe environment. That is the same way I look at shooting, it is just less demanding physically and I figured I could do it until I was really old.

Shooting is NOT a defensive action, it is offensive, that is what cracks me up about some people who are very dogmatic about "defensive shooting." It is a ridiculous concept if you honestly think about it. When you shoot a target, you are attacking it, that is offensive. It doesn't matter if you are backing up, hiding behind a card board prop, pieing around a corner, or retaining an empty magazine because you still have a round in the chamber, those ain't shooting skills, that is the "dance" that some people who want to market their game use to call it "defensive" shooting sport. Diversity is good in my book, and I enjoy all the different games that use handguns and shots as the scoring method. You can sometimes learn more from the differences, so I'm one that embraces the different shooting sports as I did studying different forms in martial arts.

In martial arts you have defensive moves, but not so much in shooting. A running away and hiding behind stuff competition would be quite boring.

Duane is a good writer and shares his point of view, that is what writers are supposed to do. Readers should keep that in mind when reading, as all writers are limited by their own experiences. Duane also learns and listens, many writers don't do that very much. A good writer will make the reader think and sound to me like he did that on this one.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Loves2Shoot

[Nemo]

I got into firearms ownership and shooting at age 27, pretty late in life compared to many of my fellow BE'ers. That was 1992. As a result of my passion for firearms and the shooting sports also came the interests in the subject scientific journals: THE GUN MAGAZINES. Since then, and I'm sure it comes from way before then, I've been reading about the difference between the "real practitioners of the martial guncraft" and the "gamesmen" (those who took the venerable modern technique and turned it into a game of people running around with guns, shooting too fast and not paying attention to the real tactics needed to "make it" in the "real world").

I don't know many folks that need to be high speed/lo-drag for a living, but the ones I know I've met in the shooting sports. For these guys a day at the office really entails putting their lives on the line. Generally these folks would state in one way or another that "they wished their co-workers would get involved in our shooting "GAME". What do I take from this? WHAT WE DO IS GOOD STUFF! If your interest in guncraft is mainly for martial purposes, the "gamesmanship" MAKES YOU BETTER AT IT. Quit fighting about it or fighting it. It just is.

The Columbia Conference instituted as a bona-fide game (the most wonderful shooting game, IMO) what started as a mix of gunplay (leather slappin') and the development of the modern technique of the pistol. When the game turned "too gamey" people got offended and quit or went about and created other shooting organizations. I find it funny that when the most martially-oriented gun people wanted to preach their gospel went ahead and created GAMES.

Although my rambling above may not necessarily reflect it, I think I get it Duane.

It's Saturday morning and I have to go shoot a match. Gotta go...

[Duane Thomas]

Well, I hate to do this - really, REALLY hate to do this - in a thread where people are, by and large, talking about how much they enjoyed an article of mine, and how it made them think, but I'm going to have to close this one down. We're sliding way too much into the verboten "match shooting versus real-world self-defense" area of discussion. Thanks for the comments and compliments, guys. Lots of good thought here - just not for this web site.

[19852]

I could not agree more on the subject of loving what you do, true passion for your sport will take one far. I am a former elite athlete, US national team, Olympic team etc. This was back in the bad 'ole days of the iron curtain. It was certain that the Soviets, East Germans, etc where doing performance enhancing drugs, brutal training methods, blood packing, etc. They were paid, or at least got better living conditions. Meanwhile back in the US of A I was living in the "hood" of Philly [with the hoods] training three times a day because I loved it. I was never paid for my sport, I rehabbed houses to buy peanut butter and we still won. The foreign athletes could never believe we were not paid.

[sperman]

Since the original thread on this article was closed, I don't think this one will live long either.

[Singlestack]

Closed

[Flexmoney]

...and merged.