CocoBolo Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 you could get too many people in Hawaii to vote for your 15 round mag rules since they are prohibited from owning them. Also there are other states with restrictions to 10 or 12 based on when they were purchased. I plead guilty to being ignorant of states with restrictive mag laws. When I come to Hawaii I'll leave the open gun with its 31 rd mag at home since everyone there is shooting 10. If that is the case they have leveled the playing field more than the change to 15rd and made production class more completive, which is essentially a similar effect of that change in other states. As far a pulling in opposite directions or getting what I want, I shoot open, my interest is in building the sport and having more shooters and making that more attractive and pleasant for new shooters. I may be selfish because I like the idea of everyone that carries a hand gun to regularly participate is some organized shooting sport such as USPSA or IDPA. Most people that carry lack even BASIC gun handling skills, much less any ability to place a shot accurately. I respect your right to disagree peacefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 ....there are still a few 10-round states to take into consideration. (really, that is not that big of an issue in my mind).... That would be a bigger deal to you, if you lived here. Signed, NY resident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 I haven't actually seen a compelling reason to change the US rule, yet, honestly. And I've seen lot's of good reasons to keep it as it is... But, kudos to IPSC for making this change For various reasons, I think this was the right move for them overall.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino_aki Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 (edited) you could get too many people in Hawaii to vote for your 15 round mag rules since they are prohibited from owning them. Also there are other states with restrictions to 10 or 12 based on when they were purchased. I plead guilty to being ignorant of states with restrictive mag laws. When I come to Hawaii I'll leave the open gun with its 31 rd mag at home since everyone there is shooting 10. If that is the case they have leveled the playing field more than the change to 15rd and made production class more completive, which is essentially a similar effect of that change in other states. As far a pulling in opposite directions or getting what I want, I shoot open, my interest is in building the sport and having more shooters and making that more attractive and pleasant for new shooters. I may be selfish because I like the idea of everyone that carries a hand gun to regularly participate is some organized shooting sport such as USPSA or IDPA. Most people that carry lack even BASIC gun handling skills, much less any ability to place a shot accurately. I respect your right to disagree peacefully. When you come to Hawai'i bring your Open Gun and we'll introduce you to the joys of shooting Open-10 We CAN own hi cap mags in Hawai'i they just have to be physically blocked to ten. This is why shooters from Hawai'i always seem to to have competitive mags when they shoot mainland matches. What does hurt is unblocking the mental and muscle memory of a ten round limit...dropping a 170 mag with 20 rounds still in it is disconcerting as well as a little embarrassing. Edited February 5, 2010 by gino_aki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GForceLizard Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 They will not change the rule. Everyone in states where there's a 10rnd limit will vote no. We can rename production to California rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 If I had a vote and I do, NO. Amen and thanks Chris. I agree it shouldn't change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 I would vote leave it as 10. The reloads are not that big of a deal. You move you reload. Make it 15 round mags and your gonna make it more to think about for the new shooter. 8 round arrays, 15+1 in the gun. For 2 arrays, you are going to slide lock with no makeup shots. Have a miss or makeup and your doing a standing reload. With the same 8 round arrays, in production, you basically have 2 makeup shots if you need them without a slidelock. With the move and reload, they have a couple extras before they go to slidelock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 +1 on going with 15, I think we would have more new shooters opting for production division. This would make it easier on them for equipment only 3 mags instead of 5. For low cap we still have L10 and SS. This also gives them a better shot at getting further up the combined finish making for happier shooters. They can already achieve that in theory -- easier equipment, better overall finish --- by starting where I did: Limited minor..... In reality, they'll be finishing near the bottom no matter what they shoot, unless they're already an exceptional competitor. We did have one new guy one show up a few years ago, whose initial classification turned out to be Master.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 I would vote to leave the divisions alone, ALL OF THEM. the 10 round cap in Production works. I have NEVER heard a complaint from a new shooter that there was too much reloading in Production. THen again we run a twice monthly introduction to USPSA shooting along with a 4 stage practice session that many of our 'new' shooters attend several times before venturing out to the 'big match' on Sunday. The 10 round cap allows my Sig 226 to be competitive, it allows my XD .45 Cal to be competitive. My XD 40s are competitive. If we change to 15 rounds two of the guns I have shot in Production become relegated to Safe Queens for good. I do applaud the change at IPSC. By limiting the capacity to 15 rounds (I would have preferred an even lower cap) not only have they slowed the equipment race, they have opened the sport up to many more frames than previous. I have long said that here you can shoot Production with a 9, 40, or 45, in IPSC only 9mm needed to apply. Now IPSC has become more welcoming of hte new shooter than before. As for USPSA, why should we increase the capacity and make a significant number of firearms non-competitive? We get a newbie that needs an extra Glock mag, we loan him one, usually we can loan him a mag ouch as well if he needs it, but like Nik said, with rare exception, the newbie isn't likely to win HOA at his first match. Remember, no classification, you shoot for HOA only ans you are an 'U'. If you want new people to shoot, it won't be whether they can load 15 or 10 rounds, it will be whether your group embraced them or turned them a cold shoulder when they showed up. You welcome them and help them and they will be back. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 It would make Production more competitive in the overall match results. There really is no such thing as being competitive in the overall match results. Combined results are nothing more than an interesting tidbit of trivia. Sure, I look at them regardless of what I'm shooting, but it doesn't mean anything. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 As far a pulling in opposite directions or getting what I want, I shoot open, my interest is in building the sport and having more shooters and making that more attractive and pleasant for new shooters. The best way (or so it seems to be working out this way) to encourage new shooters to try our sport, is to have a division that allows them to compete on a level playing field with the guns they likely already own. Certainly, not everyone who's interested in our sport has a gun that fits into a division properly, but the vast majority of shooters out there today seem to own at least one gun that would be a perfect starter gun for Production. Yes, they might have to buy a couple more magazines and an extra mag pouch or two, but that's a lot better than having someone be interested in the sport and then realize that their gun holds only (for example) 10 rounds and everybody else is running 15 round mags. They would think "oh, I've got to buy another gun, and mags, and a holster to compete". Some folks can't afford that, or will be turned off enough to take a pass on trying USPSA. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 It would make Production more competitive in the overall match results. There really is no such thing as being competitive in the overall match results. Combined results are nothing more than an interesting tidbit of trivia. Sure, I look at them regardless of what I'm shooting, but it doesn't mean anything. R, Really, it's the shooter who is either more or less competitive..... I know one GM, who when shooting a relatively small club match, would shoot with Production gear and tell the match director to put him in any division that would pay. More than once he beat Limited or Open shooters while shooting minor with ten round mags. The match had some talent -- it wasn't unusual to see 3-5 Open masters or 3-5 Limited A-M shooters.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 As far a pulling in opposite directions or getting what I want, I shoot open, my interest is in building the sport and having more shooters and making that more attractive and pleasant for new shooters. The best way (or so it seems to be working out this way) to encourage new shooters to try our sport, is to have a division that allows them to compete on a level playing field with the guns they likely already own. Certainly, not everyone who's interested in our sport has a gun that fits into a division properly, but the vast majority of shooters out there today seem to own at least one gun that would be a perfect starter gun for Production. Yes, they might have to buy a couple more magazines and an extra mag pouch or two, but that's a lot better than having someone be interested in the sport and then realize that their gun holds only (for example) 10 rounds and everybody else is running 15 round mags. They would think "oh, I've got to buy another gun, and mags, and a holster to compete". Some folks can't afford that, or will be turned off enough to take a pass on trying USPSA. R, Good division selection advice also helps newbies out. We steer new competitors to any and all of the divisions depending on the compatibility of their gear -- for some that means production, for others L10, SS, or Limited. Occasionally we get a new Revolver or Open competitor.... It's also not unusual for new shooters to division hop until they find something they like.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 The 15 limit certainly takes away a little bit of the zest that CZ has on the IPSC market... IMHO ten rounds lets EVERYONE play in every state and country in North America. 15 is prohibitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Wanted to add: -USPSA Production is more than allowing stock guns to be competitive in their own division (its original intent), it changes the game significantly. The stage breakdown, tactics, and overall assault of a course takes on a whole new shape when the crucible is 10 rounds. Do you push it on the steel to improve your time, or do you take a moment to make sure that you do not incur an extra reload? (See CM 03-03 for the most basic example). 10 rounds is not a limitation, it is a whole different mindset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 ....there are still a few 10-round states to take into consideration. (really, that is not that big of an issue in my mind).... That would be a bigger deal to you, if you lived here. Signed, NY resident. No, it wouldn't. Apparently I didn't communicate it well. I don't give a care if there were no 10 laws anywhere. If they were all gone...not a law on the books...I'd still want Production to be 10 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSabbath Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 The two very challenging things about Production are more mag changes (takes skill), and minor scoring (must get A's). I hope it stays just the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 As for USPSA, why should we increase the capacity and make a significant number of firearms non-competitive? We get a newbie that needs an extra Glock mag, we loan him one, usually we can loan him a mag ouch as well if he needs it, but like Nik said, with rare exception, the newbie isn't likely to win HOA at his first match. Remember, no classification, you shoot for HOA only ans you are an 'U'. If you want new people to shoot, it won't be whether they can load 15 or 10 rounds, it will be whether your group embraced them or turned them a cold shoulder when they showed up. You welcome them and help them and they will be back. Jim This is exactly how we keep the newbee coming back, letting them try our open or s_i 40 for a mag afterwords, etc. Not changing the rules, but I have been known to be wrong in he past. Why fix something thats not broken??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 There really is no such thing as being competitive in the overall match results. I know it's not scored Major/Minor but I got 5th overall out of 160 plus shooters at this weeks Tuesday Night Steel. TGO wins it with his XDM. Nils wins it regular in Limited shooting his Production G34 and extended mags. Combined results are nothing more than an interesting tidbit of trivia. Sure, I look at them regardless of what I'm shooting, but it doesn't mean anything. R, It means a lot to me. But I suppose it's a matter of opinion. But a matter of fact is that a 15 round mag capacity would help one place higher in the overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 There really is no such thing as being competitive in the overall match results. I know it's not scored Major/Minor but I got 5th overall out of 160 plus shooters at this weeks Tuesday Night Steel. TGO wins it with his XDM. Nils wins it regular in Limited shooting his Production G34 and extended mags. Combined results are nothing more than an interesting tidbit of trivia. Sure, I look at them regardless of what I'm shooting, but it doesn't mean anything. R, It means a lot to me. But I suppose it's a matter of opinion. But a matter of fact is that a 15 round mag capacity would help one place higher in the overall. If you want to place higher in the overall because you have mags of higher capacity....wait for it....wait for it....shoot Limited! That's what it's there for Benchmarking your performance based on how you place to know folks like Nils or Robby is reasonable. Changing the rules so you can get closer to them while shooting Production, isn't. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 I would vote to leave the divisions alone, ALL OF THEM. the 10 round cap in Production works. I have NEVER heard a complaint from a new shooter that there was too much reloading in Production. THen again we run a twice monthly introduction to USPSA shooting along with a 4 stage practice session that many of our 'new' shooters attend several times before venturing out to the 'big match' on Sunday. The 10 round cap allows my Sig 226 to be competitive, it allows my XD .45 Cal to be competitive. My XD 40s are competitive. If we change to 15 rounds two of the guns I have shot in Production become relegated to Safe Queens for good. I do applaud the change at IPSC. By limiting the capacity to 15 rounds (I would have preferred an even lower cap) not only have they slowed the equipment race, they have opened the sport up to many more frames than previous. I have long said that here you can shoot Production with a 9, 40, or 45, in IPSC only 9mm needed to apply. Now IPSC has become more welcoming of hte new shooter than before. As for USPSA, why should we increase the capacity and make a significant number of firearms non-competitive? We get a newbie that needs an extra Glock mag, we loan him one, usually we can loan him a mag ouch as well if he needs it, but like Nik said, with rare exception, the newbie isn't likely to win HOA at his first match. Remember, no classification, you shoot for HOA only ans you are an 'U'. If you want new people to shoot, it won't be whether they can load 15 or 10 rounds, it will be whether your group embraced them or turned them a cold shoulder when they showed up. You welcome them and help them and they will be back. Jim +10 Welcome the new shooter, let them borrow what they need, They will soon enough be buying what they need. If you cold shoulder them, that's one less person who's gonna be back. It's been said before in this post, most new shooters don't care if they win, just that they shot! Leave it at 10! Besides, reloading is practice, whether you do it once in a stage or 5 times! Speed comes with repitition! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 There really is no such thing as being competitive in the overall match results. I know it's not scored Major/Minor but I got 5th overall out of 160 plus shooters at this weeks Tuesday Night Steel. TGO wins it with his XDM. Nils wins it regular in Limited shooting his Production G34 and extended mags. Combined results are nothing more than an interesting tidbit of trivia. Sure, I look at them regardless of what I'm shooting, but it doesn't mean anything. R, It means a lot to me. But I suppose it's a matter of opinion. But a matter of fact is that a 15 round mag capacity would help one place higher in the overall. I don't understand how it would help one place higher in the overall. The overall really means nothing, when you think about it. The overall contains open, limited, production, etc. Effectively, you would be competing against limited, with a disadvantage. If the playing field were level, and all shooters were using 15 round mags, then wouldn't it be the same as if all were shooting 10 round mags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 I know it's not scored Major/Minor but I got 5th overall out of 160 plus shooters at this weeks Tuesday Night Steel. --- snip --- But a matter of fact is that a 15 round mag capacity would help one place higher in the overall. I took a look at the TNS results. I see you scored 5th in Production and 6th in Limited. Just sayin.... Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 Combined results are nothing more than an interesting tidbit of trivia. Sure, I look at them regardless of what I'm shooting, but it doesn't mean anything. R, It means a lot to me. But I suppose it's a matter of opinion. But a matter of fact is that a 15 round mag capacity would help one place higher in the overall. You have that option right now. What's stopping you from entering Limited Division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 I don't understand how it would help one place higher in the overall. The overall really means nothing, when you think about it. The overall contains open, limited, production, etc. Effectively, you would be competing against limited, with a disadvantage. If the playing field were level, and all shooters were using 15 round mags, then wouldn't it be the same as if all were shooting 10 round mags? I tend to look at the overall results, with an eye to where I placed, as a mediocre production shooter. It's just a fun way of gauging where I am in the larger pack of USPSA shooters, as opposed to the smaller group of Production shooters.... Do I seriously care? Probably not as evidenced by my lack of practice schedule.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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