racegun9

200 plus posts and allot of venom towards our club and it's pretty much came down to this. In the second sentance of the agreement there is the following. "We have read and understand the bylaws, rules, and regulations of USPSA and do agree to abide by them" But I agree the "open to all" sentance needs some cleaning up. Open to all at what price; zero, $5, $10, $40, a club membership??? Along with an addition of limited number of slots could be available at match's. Not "open to all" It's happening at the National Level now and I see it coming to the local level soon, if not already.

Internet Explorer/Windows7 did the same zip thing to me. I used Mozilla to get just an apk download and copied to dropbox.

We need to keep it somewhat consistent for now, we can break out Uspsa only next. Assume you will get 9 Uspsa match's in.Also need to know if you charge more to non members. Is $15 for everyone sarge? Right now you are at 9 Uspsa @$15 = $135 20 steel @$3. = $60 Total $195 for sarge Please keep some numbers coming in so we can get a good feel for normal a baseline can we say.

Lets do some math on this "outlandish" pricing, this "raping" of our USPSA community. Our 2014 renewal pricing with work time (Help set-up 4 match's a year or various other projects) $150 per year 9 USPSA Match's @$5 = $45 20 Steel Challenge Match's @$1 =$20 Total $215 There is a one time initiation fee of $100 the first year you join. Worst case first year shooter $315 for the first year. Most are at $215. Most other USPSA friendly clubs not outlandish or not raping the non-members But we have to charge $5 or maybe $10 more for you to shoot per match. 9 USPSA Match's @$20 = $180 20 Steel Challenge @$10 = $200 Total $380 A few real friendly clubs like Markco's club that charges everyone the same 9 USPSA Match's@10 = $90 20 Steel Challenge @$5 = $190 Total $280 Obviously the numbers will change if you don't shoot steel and if you only shoot 3 or 4 match's a year total. And I don't know if Markco's club actually shoots steel or what the price would be. Update the prices on your own and see what happens. I know he said he charges $10 to everyone for USPSA. But our club shoots USPSA every month and 2 steel match's every month. A few are cancelled for really bad weather. There is also the option to shoot 12 IDPA match's if you like that for a super cheap price but I won't figure that in. They guys that shoot allot find it a bargain and not outlandish. Even shooting half the match's doesn't change a bunch. Everyone has to figure what works for them. I can see who is outlandish

Truthfully, what I hear is the same sort of reasoning that was used to put $200 tax stamps on $5 mufflers. Like I said, you do what you do, and indeed, one can argue that you are abiding by the letter of the rule. It is obviously, however, not abiding by the spirit of the affiliation agreement. I'm not arguing whether or not it is necessary to keep USPSA able to occur at your club, or anything else. Simply put, however----you are adding additional requirements on people being able to shoot your matches when the affiliation agreement states that anyone should be able to shoot the match. And you know it. The fact that you can argue bylaws and technicalities of wording means that you are indeed obeying the rules. Doesn't change the fact that as a USPSA life member, if I came to your range and wanted to shoot a number of matches, I would be able to do so. So answer if it's ok for clubs to charge 5 or 10 dollars more per match for non members.

We have not been saying our club should be the norm or is the best setup for Uspsa match's. We have been saying we have to work within the by laws of our club and that we are following rules. Several of you have had us already thrown out of Uspsa and saying we are cancer. Saying we are not following the rules and various other negative things based on your own opinions And wrong assumptions of the rules. We put just as much work into running good match's as the rest of you. Our club has a good reputation even if you don't like some of what we do. We have tried to change it to make it even better but don't have the people that want to Hold BOD positions right now. To repeat we have broken no rules, we are in good standing with Uspsa and will continue to have match's.

Chances are high I will never shoot at your club because it's in MO somewhere. But what if I took a vacation and thought I would take my gear and shoot a few matches at different clubs. I should, the way I understand the sanctioning agreement, be able to shoot any sanctioned USPSA match anywhere in the country. And no I would NOT pay to join a club that is a thousand miles from me just for the privilege of shooting a match I should be entitled to shoot as a member in good standing in USPSA. And, are you guys the only place to shoot for miles around? I have maybe 6 matches within a few hours drive of me. None of them require club membership to shoot their SANCTIONED matches. It would be crazy to expect the 50 or so of us regular local circuit shooters to join every club just to be able to shoot matches. That would be crazy expensive and highly impractical. I know for a fact if one of those six clubs were a members only club they would die as far as USPSA is concerned. Is your club listed under the club finder feature of uspsa.org? Does it clearly say on the uspsa website that you don't allow non members to shoot? If it doesn't, it should. If it does, uspsa HQ should be inquiring why. We get on average 55 shooters a month at my club. It is a 503 whatever club. They don't want to make money. They want to promote shooting. My match report has to show how many club members vs non club members shoot my matches. From what I understand, keeping track of those stats has something to do with maintaining 503 status? Not sure how all of that works. I also have to compile results at the end of the season to determine club champions. These are club members only obviously and don't always finish near the top of the standings in the overall results. I think our stats are along the lines of only 25% of the shooters in my matches are club members. The majority of shooters at most all of the local matches around here are not members of the clubs they shoot at. The wait list is 18 months to get into my club. There are no special ways to get to the front of the line here. You could shoot every rifle match, pistol match etc all year and it means nothing as far as membership in the club is concerned. I had no idea there were clubs out there that held more or less major shooting sports events that were only available to club members. I guess you missed the 3 guest visit rule that's in our by laws and we have out of town guests and new shooters every month. You should also be turning in all your match money with a list of expenses and having the club write you a check. You must not have enough CPA,s in your club. What does turning in match money have to do with the price of tea in china? I do turn in money minus expenses after every match. 3 guest passes covers three matches out of I'm guessing 8 a year or so? You were going on about how we could handle out of town and new shooters and that's how we do it. The 3 guest visit isn't intended to get someone in every match. We usually get about 10 match's in. The "advice" was from an early on post you said you took out match expenses and then turned in the match money, From what I understand the irs and most CPA type people like to have all the money turned in with expense tickets and they write you a check back. Nothing to do with match membership. You typed something about. It's free advice our club learned.

Chances are high I will never shoot at your club because it's in MO somewhere. But what if I took a vacation and thought I would take my gear and shoot a few matches at different clubs. I should, the way I understand the sanctioning agreement, be able to shoot any sanctioned USPSA match anywhere in the country. And no I would NOT pay to join a club that is a thousand miles from me just for the privilege of shooting a match I should be entitled to shoot as a member in good standing in USPSA. And, are you guys the only place to shoot for miles around? I have maybe 6 matches within a few hours drive of me. None of them require club membership to shoot their SANCTIONED matches. It would be crazy to expect the 50 or so of us regular local circuit shooters to join every club just to be able to shoot matches. That would be crazy expensive and highly impractical. I know for a fact if one of those six clubs were a members only club they would die as far as USPSA is concerned. Is your club listed under the club finder feature of uspsa.org? Does it clearly say on the uspsa website that you don't allow non members to shoot? If it doesn't, it should. If it does, uspsa HQ should be inquiring why. We get on average 55 shooters a month at my club. It is a 503 whatever club. They don't want to make money. They want to promote shooting. My match report has to show how many club members vs non club members shoot my matches. From what I understand, keeping track of those stats has something to do with maintaining 503 status? Not sure how all of that works. I also have to compile results at the end of the season to determine club champions. These are club members only obviously and don't always finish near the top of the standings in the overall results. I think our stats are along the lines of only 25% of the shooters in my matches are club members. The majority of shooters at most all of the local matches around here are not members of the clubs they shoot at. The wait list is 18 months to get into my club. There are no special ways to get to the front of the line here. You could shoot every rifle match, pistol match etc all year and it means nothing as far as membership in the club is concerned. I had no idea there were clubs out there that held more or less major shooting sports events that were only available to club members. I guess you missed the 3 guest visit rule that's in our by laws and we have out of town guests and new shooters every month. You should also be turning in all your match money with a list of expenses and having the club write you a check. You must not have enough CPA,s in your club.

Several ways I know of. 1.Part of your match fee buys you a membership. 2.You could be considered a guest for the day. 3. Some clubs have an open house or membership drive for the weekend once a year. I assume there are others like a daily or match only range membership. Depends on the clubs by laws. Fair enough. At my club the difference in L1 match fees for a non-club member is a lousy $5 ($15 for non-club members, $10 for club members). Seems reasonable, or at least I haven't heard any complaints from the non-members and our mix of club vs non-club is about 50-50 at our twice a month matches. We do offer a reduced match fee of $5 for juniors or students to help those kids out. I'm not about to tell another club how to run their matches (anymore than I want somebody to tell me how to run mine), but seems like your #1 could get excessive depending on how much a non-member has to pay. Guess people will vote with their wallets. We need to check with marcco and sarge on this because I'm not clear on their stance if it's ok with the rules to take 5 or 10 dollars extra every match compared with a one time lump payment. This is a little tongue in cheek marcco & sarge but I don't think you have answered this specific situation that happens all over the country. Is this club within the rules as you see it?

Several ways I know of. 1.Part of your match fee buys you a membership. 2.You could be considered a guest for the day. 3. Some clubs have an open house or membership drive for the weekend once a year. I assume there are others like a daily or match only range membership. Depends on the clubs by laws.

That's great you have your club set-up that way and is a great model if all could be like that. But, there are lots of clubs that charge more for non club members either in a per match basis Or a one time fee. Are you saying all these clubs are not following the rules? I'm saying I don't see a fee structure set up in the rules. All I can find is "open to all members" doesn't say anything about at what cost. You claim it's Clinton speak, if anyone sees something other than your view. I see a one sentence line in the affiliation packet that is not very cut and dried. Yet, several are already sure the clubs should be culled from Uspsa

So some clubs can charge non-members a smaller amount every time they come to a match And they are good to go with the rules, but if you charge non-members a one time larger fee That is very bad and against the rules? Just trying to figure who we need to throw out of Uspsa.

That dog won't hunt.Every club I shoot at around here IS a members' only club. Yet at every single one I can shoot a USPSA match without having to be raped for a "membership" fee. I just can't help myself to the club's facilities after the match is over. Your BoD acts as if they were being asked to open your club 24/7 to the general public. Truthfully, I'd switch sports before putting up with bullshit like that if I had no other option to shoot UPSPA in the local area. Do any of them have a bylaw in the club charter that non-members can only visit 3 times? Do you know of any clubs having $5 ipsc match's and $1.00 steel match's to try to offset the costs?

I did not say they should be kicked out. That is not my place. But the rules should be followed, or clubs should not advertise that they run USPSA matches, with this topic or any other where they don't follow the rules. No examples except to follow the rules. I've shot many matches at Rio Salado, don't have a membership there. I haven't been allowed to shoot Area 2 and I'm a Uspsa member?Have you registered in time before it sold out and received a slot and showed up and been turned away because you are not a member there?I have been able to get a slot and sometimes not. I doubt I was the first one in line with the app. Sent next day air any of times.I usually don't travel to a match if I don't have a slot. I understand the reason for slots. But I don't see how if follows the "open to all members" rule that some think are so black and white. I also think more and more local clubs will end up with slots. Only so many bays and time to invest at a local level too. I know our club is reaching that point and how will this fit the rule?

I did not say they should be kicked out. That is not my place. But the rules should be followed, or clubs should not advertise that they run USPSA matches, with this topic or any other where they don't follow the rules. No examples except to follow the rules. I've shot many matches at Rio Salado, don't have a membership there. I haven't been allowed to shoot Area 2 and I'm a Uspsa member?

How can matches limit the number of competitor's and still follow the rule: "matches shall be open to any person eligible for uspsa membership" I think its sad and they should be kicked out of USPSA as MarcCo would put it. They should be made an example of. Bye Bye Rio Salado It's not always so black and white.

Playing devils advocate for a bit: What rule would these clubs be breaking? "matches shall be open to any person eligible for Uspsa membership"? As far as I know they are open to any Uspsa member if you pay the correct match and or range fee's. I haven't seen any USPSA rules establishing fee's. In a perfect would it would be great if anyone could go anywhere and pay $10 bucks. The world isn't perfect. If the match fee is $250 to go to the nationals can I come and play if I only think its worth $50. If your local match fee was $20 could I come and say your only worth $5. No one is being excluded but they may not like (or can afford) the price to play sometimes.

There are also things called by-laws that vary greatly from club to club. Its not always so simple to get them changed.

I have the older RTS not the RTS2 and if you leave it on a week its not very bright. Cmore says 300 to 1500 hours battery life. I'd say closer to the 300. For .50 cents or less I change it about once a month if I don't leave it on. The RTS2 is supposed to turn itself off after 8 hours. More often than that for some shooters when they are not working right.

No, Some have taken one spring out if they had too much extractor tension. My last 2 or 3 open guns all had both springs. But Derek at MC guns built and fit them.

I would guess Big Yellow is CAT.

No, can't do much about mother nature on match day. Seems like gravel and drainage tile would go along way. But the range needs financial resources for that fix. Most ranges go the gravel route around here. We get rain before, during and sometimes after a match. Some range's are lucky and have some sand and or natural drainage. I don't know that we need to have boot camp mud to test the practical part.

We've been sending in apps and getting pin numbers back for the on-line squadding. Should be good to go.

Reminds me of Tulsa in the rain

7.5 would be my choice between those two. I think you will find a majority using 6 to 8. With a few using 4 or 12.