firewood

I'm in the hole for $1040.00 bux.

I don't know anything about the company in this discussion so i'm not throwing rocks at them. OK I have orders for case quantities from another company since early November. Nothing has moved, no communications. It would be one thing if I hadn't already paid for this material but I have paid in full. While I have been using this company for years, I'm unhappy at the treatment I have been getting (actually not getting). My experience in manufacturing has taught me a few things. One of those is treat a customer good for years then suddenly start to take them for granted is not a good business tactic. If for some reason you cannot perform, the only solution is to be honest and communicate. Only someone that is in a coma is unaware that there are challenges in business today so repeating the mantra of "unprecedented demand of historic proportions" is basically telling the customer that they are stupid and clueless. Telling customers what they as a company have done in the past means nothing to customers today. When this shakes out I think there will be a few bullet manufacturers no longer manufacturing bullets. This in spite of a healthy backlog. I understand that they are worried about having orders cancelled because of long lead times and customers becoming impatient but once you take a customers payment you have an obligation to perform. The customer has a right to expect something in return for their payment. It is my understanding that supplying cast or coated bullets is not an easy business, it is difficult to be profitable. When things get back to normal some of these companies will wish they were more attentive to things. A year ago I would have never thought that I might be seriously considering looking for another bullet supplier in the future. I cannot say that now.

I'm not a RFRO shooter so I have nothing useful to add to this conversation. But it seems to me, take a 10/22 or 15-22 and do a few things to make it work in SCSA on a budget, then get smoked by the kids. Or spend a truck load of money on a race gun and get smoked by the kids.

Oh ok. I guess I've been asleep at my desk for the last 35 years. I can understand the frustration of waiting for a repair part that has not available for months. Maybe Dillon fabricates some of the primer assembly or buys it in a completed form still it is not a good sign for it to not be available for this long. If it were made out of some kind or rare material or was a intricate machined piece that would be one thing but it's not. The point I was trying to make previously is a good big chunk of the world has gone on in spite of the virus, I know my company has, as has our suppliers and our customers and that is a big net. My sense is out in the consumer world the virus has been a handy excuse for all kinds of things. Not saying this is what is happening here with Dillon. But think about it, there is zip in the way of reloading hardware and supplies right now. I get it there is a demand but the half hearted casual shooters are not buying $1000 reloading presses, $500 powder measures, kegs of smokeless gunpowder, cases of coated lead bullets or case loads of primers. There is something seriously dysfunctional going on here. I cannot believe that I have bullet orders that are 16 weeks old and show no signs of moving. Coated bullets, made by machine using lead wire then coated, how could all these bullet makers be 4-5 months in the crapper? Just like everyone else I go to big matches but big is not that big. We are a small group of firearms related consumers and a very small part of the overall population.

It is true that Dillon makes high quality reloading presses but in the manufacturing world there are any levels higher. My company is qualified to several Mil-specs and we make space grade items as well as nuclear Navy and items for airframe manufacturers. We purchase complicated custom machined and fabricated parts in very small quantities with very high tolerances, workmanship standards and material traceability requirements, some requiring customer and government source inspection and test data. We have not in the past year had any unusual sourcing problems. Our customers are the big military and aerospace companies that would drop us like a bad habit if we falter. But we haven't so I agree with another poster if the actual problem is the suppliers shame on Dillon. BTW I believe but would not go to the wall on this but I think Redding is Dillon's die supplier.

Bayou ...ordered 11/9 still waiting.

I have four case size orders on the books. The oldest is from early November, sill waiting so I think the 14 weeks is probably the minimum. I don't want to be impatient or unreasonable and I understand it is a small organization and I don't want them to suffer for no good reason as I have enough to last quite a while. But still, four orders is $1000 total that I have already paid for weeks ago. I think it is normal to be anxious when you have that much money on the hook. And given that handloaders are a small percentage of firearms users and those who order case lots of coated bullets an even smaller percentage and yet the industry is literally crippled because people are throwing money at the suppliers hand over fist.

Mostly the BMT Loader. The problem is the machined part that holds the round and the moon clip is starting to elongate from all of the pressure making it difficult to use. Lately I have been using one from the Revolver Supply store, I think I would like to try the one made by TK. 0.040 is a tight fit.

I am by no means a competitive revolver honcho. I have two 929s, one is open the other is iron sight. The iron sight gun will use 0.035 moons, the open 0.040. I use the same headstamp brass, primers and projectile. I have always thought that the guns headspace different. Some revolver guys tell me that they would change one or the other so that I would only need one style (thickness)of moon clip. Maybe a 0.037 moon clips would solve my problem. The 0.040 are a bear to load.

I acknowledge that this thread is supposed to be a comparison between Bayou and Precision coated bullets. I have been a loyal Bayou consumer for much of the 8 years I have been handloading match ammo in quantity. My quantity, which is laughable to some here I'm sure, but is about 12K per year. I have plenty of bullets I could use but one particular model makes up about 80% of my annual consumption. I think that I have to admit that I'm a bit lazy, I have loads that work and a large variety of powders but when I run low on a particular powder I buy more of the same instead of using a different powder and doing some development. So the same goes with bullets. I should use up what I have not buy more but time is a factor so I just buy more of what I know will work. Wasn't sure how much shooting I would do this year, I knew that I should order more bullets months ago but kept putting it off. Finally I'm down to 2000 bullets and some loaded ammo so now it's place an order or start fiddling with another bullet in my collection. I'm lazy so I order 4 cases. The backlog at the time of order was 4 weeks, it's been since changed to 5-6 weeks and here I am 5+ weeks and my order is no where. No where plus historically 2 weeks for shipping means I'm very likely going to be shooting my last round probably before I refill the hopper. Best case is it's going to be close. So this weekend or at the latest next weekend it's get out my chrono time and put together some samples. So, back to the subject, with my particular loads using Bayou I do get a small amount of leading. I clean my guns after every time out but once in a while I don't that is when I notice leading. So given the frustration with having to wait for a shipment to arrive which I paid for 5 weeks ago and the small amount of leading I'm now open to trying a different bullets. I have 500 of the purple coated guys from King Shooters in Eastern PA which is about an hour drive for me. They are expensive and sometimes out of stock even during good times. The other option is something like Precision but right now they are 10 weeks leadtime. Most of us say, myself included, say that we should buy enough supplies to weather any impending storm. I don't disagree with this and in the big picture I have plenty that I could use. Some of that thinking should also apply to the suppliers of this material though. If I miss a match because I'm out of bullets it's no that big a deal as I'm not a pro shooter. The bullet suppliers however are depending on sales to pay the electric bill. As we all know the general shooting public doesn't buy reloading materials, only us afflicted with the urge to compete do. I tend to think the suppliers, nice as they are, should lose the sad faces and stories of employee overtime to supply us with lead because they are partly to blame for this situation. No one does anything for free, at least if they are in business they shouldn't. And that's what I think about this situation. I try not to be demanding at the same time realistic. I get it, I'm locked into Federal primers for most of my shooting so I never let that supply get low. During the last big shortage bullets were the least of the supply problem. I think now we should all get it into our heads the we need to keep excessive amounts of everything on hand.

A few weeks have passed can we have an update?

I placed a case size order with Bayou two weeks after you did, my order is nowhere as of today. When I placed the order the backlog was 4 weeks, now they are saying 5-6 weeks. I'm ok and understand the issues but if I don't have them in-hand in another 4 weeks than then I will have to institute "Plan B". I don't actually have a "Plan B" so this should be interesting. My normal practice is to have plenty on hand. I got a bit relaxed on bullets because in the past when things got tight component wise, bullets were the easiest to find, powder and primers were the real dogs. I have enough powder and primers to last me a long time. I guess I will have to start putting a few years worth of bullets in the bunker now. I loaded up all of my steel challenge bullets this past weekend. I have about 1300 rounds now. I guess Plan B will involve shooting rimfire and/or CO in 9mm I have a lot of 9mm bullets on the shelf.

I am by no means a steel rimfire honcho but do some RFPO in wildcat matches and a few RFRO in rimfire challenge. I shot just under 5000 rounds of Federal Auto-match in 2018, most of it in a S&W Victory the rest in an S&W M&P AR15-22. I had 3 jams total in the Victory and no jams in the AR. I think that is acceptable. The only complaint is the ammo is a bit dirty. Last year was my first year dabbling in rimfire. It took me a while to get both of my rimfires to behave, especially the AR but once I got past that the Auto-match worked fine. This is however not an endorsement of the product. Now that I have a better understanding of how things work I'm going to see if I can find something a little bit cleaner.

Once you are certain that you have a workable load and are confident in it's performance then a good idea it to calculate how much you need for the upcoming month both practice and matches plus a buffer. Keep that amount of ammo ready then you will reduce the possibility of staying up all night before a match pulling the handle. I keep at least a 8 month supply of primers and about 2 years worth of powder on hand. Bullets are my weak point, as far as 9mm goes I currently have enough to get me to September. Last week I did a panic buy of 135g coated RN bullets and as soon as they arrived and I went to put them on the shelf I found a box of 1150 hidden in plain sight. When you have the opportunity to pick up brass take advantage of it, even if it's a caliber you normally don't shot. Sooner or later you will get an opportunity to trade with someone for something you do use. I think it was you that mentioned that you have a goal of making A by the end of the year. I think making goals like that are a good idea. You can do it if you put in the time, especially dry fire practice. There are a number of good books with dry fire practice routines. Pick one and make it your handbook for the year. Keep track of what you are doing as in make notes and log your times. Get a shot timer with a par feature and use it. Also get a copy of Larry Bassham's book With Winning in Mind. When you dry fire do it exactly the same as when you live fire, that is wear hearing protection, ball cap and glasses so that you get very used to actual shooting conditions. Buy or make reduced sized targets. For what it's worth I have set the goal of making Master this year in Steel Challenge, Optic Revolver. Right now I'm at 80%, 2 years ago I was at 36% and would have never dreamed that I could get even as far as I'm at now. It took me a while to get serious. The shooters that set goals and diligently work towards meeting them are the ones that advance. Making A I think is a big deal because you can shoot comfortable at B level without essential skills like calling shots or putting in a lot of practice time but A requires both of these things and more. Good luck.

OK now that I have said that I have an inquiry that sort of goes along with what is being discussed here. I have an XDM 4.5 new never fired yet and a total of 6 magazines. I'm trying to find a competition use for it. I realize I will need to put some money in it but don't want to get carried away. Other guns I have in competition service now are a G17 for carry optics and a G34 for production, both have upgrades especially the G17. For both of those I also have a production holster/belt for USPSA and an IDPA rig but I do very little IDPA. So, I'm thinking about using the XDM for Steel Challenge open division Since there is no power factor in steel challenge and no need to do reloads on the clock I can dispense with compensators, mag wells and charging handle. I think but do not know for sure if the 4.5 barrel will be a hold back but with an optic I don't think so. I would handload for a soft shooting round that will be dependable and accurate. What I'm mulling over is a trigger kit, a frame mount for a dot and of course the dot itself which would probably be a C-MORE slide ride. I would also need a race belt/holster, prolly a DAA Racer holster and a DAA 2 pc belt. So I would be looking at spending about $500 maybe a little bit more to achieve this. Allow me to say that as far as competition is concerned I'm not trying to achieve GM in open pistol as I already have enough good guns to shoot OSR, ISR, RFPO, RFRO and decent hardware for CO and Stock. I don't really have enough time to shoot all of the guns I already have to be honest. Does this make sense or is it a waste of time/money? Has anyone mounted a frame mount optic on this gun? If so what did they use and is it effective? Thanks in advance.

On numerous occasions I have replaced the battery in my dot during a match. I have also replaced firing pins in my revolver at the safe table. For that matter I have had fiber optic front sight inserts fall out and have replaced them in the field.

Thank you very interesting. I will look into this in detail.

Thank you for your contributions on this thread. Can you recommend a resource for further reading? In particular loading for above/below the sound barrier. Is this somehow tied into conversations that I see sometimes on finding "nodes" when handloading? I have generally avoided this aspect of cartridge development. Thanks again. ON EDIT: One other thing. I know that using a light bullet requires a bigger load to make a particular bullet speed compared to a heavy bullet. In my case I have some (about 12 pounds) of CFE pistol that I don't know what to do with. I'm interested in 9mm minor only and was going to experiment this spring with a load that might work and I know results depends on other factors but do you think this is a fools errand and I should stick with faster powders? Not trying to be lazy, really, but I'm getting the impression that from this and others things I have read elsewhere that getting minor pf with slow powders is not easy. Thanks and sorry for rambling on.

Hi Baldwin I'm 60 have all of the issues you have plus a few more. I started shooting handguns about 5 years ago, shooting auto loaders in 9mm. I had a few mishaps that were a bitter experience. But I worked through them and like you I'm a competitive person. My first two years of shooting I really did terrible. Two years ago I hit the reset button. Switched guns to revolver, started shooting Steel Challenge. My first match April 2017 was classified D at 36%. 18 months later I'm at 80% in optical sight revolver, I have a very good chance of making Master in 2019. In fact this is my goal for the year. Regardless of the actual game you decide on or the division you shoot, you can be a good shooter and do well in competitions if you put in the time and keep at it. You will need to practice, do dry fire practice and hit the range often for meaningful practice sessions. Also while you will need to accept that at first you will be a the bottom, a positive attitude is absolutely essential. You do not want to lose the match before you even shoot it. Don't gage your progress by what others say or do. Set goals and work diligently to meet them. Don't waste time on making excuses, instead put your energy into improving your skills. I think Steel Challenge is a great way to get going. Rimfire guns (rifle and pistol), especially in the open classes, in steel challenge are easier to get started in but the young kids have speed that is hard for us to overcome. Centerfire guns are in my opinion the way to go. If you are shooting 9mm auto loaders look into carry optics division. Two words: Do It.

For your future sad panda stories perhaps you might try to describe your friends as total beginners instead of guys with enough experience to know that they are not wasting their time on measly tier 1 matches.

We bring thousands of dollars worth of tackle and years of shooting experience to these matches and some poor soul, friend of Thomas H can only watch from the sidelines while Thomas H himself laments the demise of the sport. Because friends don't want to pay 30 or 40 dollars a year so they will miss out on the experience. Makes me wonder what they will do to fill the void in their lives, it musts to be something that is just 1 click north of free. Skipping rocks down at the river bank? A spirited game of checkers over at Druckers General Store?

Very well said. Also Steel Shooting is hard on the plates, you will be replacing or repairing them more often then you might think. You will need sticks and paint, a lot of paint. Some match directors have a system where they use rope to place the targets in the correct location. Place your targets in the correct position then use make a rope template. Put on a spool for the next match. I've never taken the position of match director but I know that it is a lot of work. Once you get a system set up it becomes easier but the time it takes to run a match will cut into your practice time. So if you want to be really good at this and need to run matches make sure you have plenty of quality helpers.

Actually they could do it it's really up to them. But I guess now they will have to find something else to enjoy.

For 929s I'm using the revolver supply store moons. One of my 929s is fine with .035 blacks steel moons, the other need plated .040 moons. The .040 is a little tight but with the .035 I get too many light strikes. It took a while for the .040s to "break in" they are tight. I also use only Winchester brass. I have a package of DAA moons .040 they are nice also. The thing is, using the BMT mooner tool which is fantastic but the TKs and DAA moon clips have a round center hole and the Revolver Supply moons are I think a 6 sided center hole. With the BMT tool using the Revolver Supply moons you need to use a magnetic adapter to accommodate the center hole. This adapter costs $10.00 and I think would be really easy to lose in the field so I leave the adapter on the tool and just use the Revolver Supply moons to avoid problems. But any of these moons, TK, DAA or Revolver Supply work for me. Others use Ranch Products never hear anything bad about any of them.

While I would have thought this impossible 5 years ago it is true for me today. This of course is not saying much but I think it is because I rarely shoot anything other than revolver these days. I want to start shooting more auto-loaders next year, I have a pile of 9mm pick-up brass and 9mm components that will allow me to shoot at minimal cash outlay. But hands down the DA revolver is a harder gun to get under control. I also agree with you on the Revolver Supply Co moon clips.