firewood

I get it now. I's ok for you to make assumptions about me but it isn't ok for me to make assumptions about you. In your OP you state: I'm confused, are you talking about brand new shooters that just happen to be not interested in unsanctioned matches, only sanctioned events or are we talking about shooters that have been there, done that and simply don't sully themselves with tier 1 nonsense?

I hope you are right!

Thomas H You ask for thoughts, you get thoughts and you don't like those thoughts. And you make it kind of clear you don't appreciate thoughts that disagree with your thoughts. OK Probably due to the fact that I'm not a very nice individual or something but I'm really struggling to care if your friends don't participate. Most likely, I would imagine, the USPSA/SCSA needs to carry a fairly comprehensive liability insurance policy to protect itself in particular for sanctioned events. All it takes it one errant round by some casual shooter. If they are not requiring membership and/or not enforcing this then they should start right now.

Warning the revolver will take over your life and ruin your savings and retirement account. As far as the 4" vs. 5" holster I cannot comment because I have no experience. I do have a 686 with a 4" barrel, this is what I used my first year. I purchased a Safariland holster for it and that is what I use for IDPA which I hardly ever shoot. The Safariland holster is inexpensive less than $40.00 but this thing really puts a death grip on the gun. Every time I use it I spray the inside with silicone, I have stretched the holster for weeks at a time by putting the revo in a plastic bag then inserting into the holster and I have the adjustment screws as lose as possible and lock tite to keep from them getting lost and still it takes considerable effort to draw. I think the thing to do is shoot a few more matches with what you have and see where your interests go. Good luck have fun.

Simple solution. Thomas H my advice is for you run unsanctioned tier 2 style matches with the same large prize table and a Lewis Class payout! It can be done. This way you can shoot with your buds and keep their personal costs down and they will walk off with all kinds of freebies donated by sponsors that think the same way. Actually I'm really conflicted on this not because I agree or disagree with you but because you are critical of a rule change that casual shooters who are not satisfied shooting tier 1 matches don't like. What you are asking is this: You dues paying members of USPSA, I have some friends that don't want to support the SCSA sanctioning body but want to shoot in SCSA sanctioned matches. Kindly let USPSA/SCSA know that you think it's unfair for the borg to require those individuals pay dues to shoot in our matches even though they don't think the borg is a worthy cause. Put another way, I have to cough up yearly dues and I have to take yearly tests to be a NROI certified so your friends to shoot in sanctioned matches without having to be members of the sanctioning body.

I'm typical in Steel Challenge I think although not everyone does this but I have 50 moon clips for my Optical Sight Revolver (OSR) and 50 moons for my Iron sight revolver (ISR). In an 8 stage Steel Challenge match you need 39 moon clips total, 50 of them gives me enough extras if I have to do a reshoot or if for some reason one is bent or gets bent or otherwise not useable. I like to have a buffer. This amount allows me to shoot an entire 8 stage match without having to fool around with moon clips the whole time. Sometimes I shoot both guns in the same squad this really makes it a lot more enjoyable shooting a total of 16 stages (78 strings) not having to get out the tools. Most local SCSA matches are not 8 stages, usually 5 or 6, I will acknowledge this point, plan/purchase accordingly. As far as holsters for Steel Challenge revolver go I would advise you to hold off buying anything from Amazon, free with prime shipping duly considered. Given that your revolver is an 8 shot (this pretty much rules out IDPA competition) you should at least consider a speed (or Race) holster. You can use a speed holster in Steel Challenge (both ISR and OSR), USPSA Revolver and ICORE Limited (and open). Although I don't know anything about the various Kydex holsters for revolver I do know that they are less expensive than some of the more mainstream speed holsters, but as I understand it they are slower. In Steel Challenge speed is just about everything assuming your hitting the target. Not that I'm the measure of all things in Steel Challenge or otherwise, but my rig is typical of those who shoot Steel Challenge, USPSA and ICORE revo. My belt consists of the DAA Race Master holster, the DAA (2 pc) competition belt and (8) DAA magnetic moon clip holders. For Steel Challenge I don't put moons on the belt, I just set them on the table. You might find this difficult when you first start shooting the stage called Outer Limits because if you need to do a reload and your in the center box it's a long way to the table to get more bullets! Ha Ha! But you will not really need moon clip holders for steel challenge. There are other holsters similar to the DAA Race Master (such as the less expensive DAA Racer holster and other makes) and please note I'm not trying to sell you anything. What I'm doing is advising you to look deep into the purchase of new tackle. Another thing that you might want to consider in the future is having the action in your 627 smoothed out and the trigger lightened. You cannot go too light unless you handload your ammo, I'm not sure what the limit is but I think it's around 8 pounds if using factory ammo. Again no one is asking my for my autograph but my triggers are at about 6.5 pounds maybe a little more, this requires handloaded ammo with federal primers seated below flush. As a side note, in Steel Challenge production class where your G17 is home with iron sights, you must use a holster that meets USPSA production division requirements. That is a different conversation though.

The smart thing to do would be to make my G34 carry optic and keep using the G17 in production, do an upgrade on the XDM a little at a time, especially the trigger with has about a mile of pre travel. Or have the G17 slide milled and upgrade the G34 with adjustable iron sights. That sounds strange also.

I had read that and because of it I ask the question. But I first wanted opinions on the gun especially for steel challenge. It's sort of convoluted in a way as I have more than enough auto loaders and I also just won a Glock so I have a G34 MOS in the pipeline but I really want that for a production gun. So it's either a G17 that I have or the XDM for carry optics and to be quite honest 99% of my shooting is revolver. On the other hand I have enough reloading components to shoot 9mm for the next decade for free, just my time and labor, that is at the root of my quest for a carry optics gun. I would be putting about $400.00 or so into it so that is why. If nothing else one of my kids might use it if it were CO ready.

jcc7x7 thank you. I'm asking the question because I have a basic XMD that I picked up at a prize table. It's not optic ready so if I decide to use it for CO then probably will opt for a dovetail mount. May I ask your opinion on using a dovetail optic mount on this gun? Thanks

This year OSR and ISR. I usually shoot both at any SCSA match I enter but every time I pull the lever on ISR I ask myself why? I guess it really doesn't hurt but I would like to become proficient in just 1 gun first so my gut tells me to just concentrate on one but my impulses usually overrule. Now that the big matches for the year are over, I would actually like to try open rimfire pistol and I think I'm going to soon just to see what happens although I think I already know how that will go. I'm going to shoot open rimfire rifle, I've only shot the gun twice in the past, at a local for fun match this weekend but I really don't see that becoming a habit.

Does anyone use the 4.5 for steel challenge CO division? If not CO, production? May I have your thoughts on this platform? Thanks Tom

Good to hear jkrispies!

As a side note Ontelaunee is the location of the East Coast Steel Challenge Championship the week before the IRC. ON EDIT: SEE BELOW possible reschedule of the ECSCC 2019

Thanks Zack for the pfd., very useful.

Basically all of the bases have been covered by previous posters. Eastern PA is a great place for handgunners. I believe it is possible to shoot USPSA every weekend here. The two closest to Scranton are Factoryville and for IDPA, Wilkes Barre (in Hunlock Creek). Matamoras isn't too far. Keystone is good. West Shore runs a good match it is near Harrisburg. Ontelaunee is 20 miles north of Allentown and is, as mentioned, fab. Here is a useful website, it isn't complete and check with the MD before traveling https://sites.google.com/site/midatlanticshootingsports/ Also as already mentioned but deserves to be repeated in NJ don't travel with mags over 10 rounds. A really good idea, worth the time and effort and no one in NJ will laugh at you for this but put a lock on your range bag, put your ammo in a separate locked container and do not under any circumstances pre-load your magazines. When you are done unload your mags and reverse the procedure. In NJ and NY you basically have no rights as a firearms owner, act accordingly. It's too bad, I shoot at Old Bridge Steel, Challenge, and they run a great match, you just have to be mindful of the states politics. Under most circumstances, hollow points are illegal, just don't have them in the car period.

I'm curious if anyone knows if you (on a rimfire pistol) drill out the hole in the comp, just make it bigger, would it give you a louder bang and not have any negative effects? I ream the innards all the time with a drill bit but was thinking about enlarging the exit hole. Anyone see a problem with that?

You are doing well Stick!

I posted my 2018 goals of January 2. Not many goals but A class in SCSA (OSR and ISR), Dryfire every day and have fun in the process. So here we are 8 months later, labor day weekend. I have certainly had fun this year. This is the first year since starting this adventure in late fall 2014 that I have had an enjoyable time and considerably less stress. Dryfire: I get the gun out on average of 4 times/week. Need to increase that. SCSA A class: Made A class in OSR, still a ways to go in ISR which to be truthful is kicking me in my butt. I don't think I helped myself much by starting to shoot open rimfire pistol (and rifle) in local rimfire challenge and wildcat steel matches. That wasn't even of the radar screen last January. Overall I'm happy with my progress this year. I need to work on not being lazy and start becoming more focused on the task at hand. I don't feel too let down about where I'm at in ISR as I haven't put in the time or effort as of yet. I'm at just shy of 70% there so I'm confident that I will make it eventually. I want to get this under control so that I can shoot some USPSA and ICORE without having to think too deeply into what I'm doing for simple survival. I'm trying to be honest in evaluating where I'm at and what I can realistically expect going forward. My main goal going into next year will be to improve on SCSA OSR.

Sorry to hear you have so few revolver shooters at your matches. Most matches around here revolver is still a minority gun for sure but there are still quite a few that compete and a lot of those shooters are very good. For me it's generally a matter of trying to avoid making a total fool out of myself LOL! We are about 4 weeks away from the East Coast Steel Challenge Championship match which is local for me. A lot of really good revolver shooters are registered for that match. Also they just had the Area 8 USPSA match here and the EAST COAST ICORE match is in early November. I can shoot 2 or 3 Steel Matches or other stuff a week without traveling too far and even in local IDPA usually there are usually several revolvers. Most weeks I have to decide which match to skip for one that I rather shoot there are that many.

James... it's hard to argue with success! If it works best to leave it alone. It seems like every one around here has a lighter/smoother trigger than I do but I haven't heard anyone say my triggers absolutely suck either. Maybe everyone is just being polite but at 6.5 pounds I sometimes think I would like a lighter trigger. I agree with you revolver is a lot of fun. I went into them kicking and screaming but now most of my shooting is revolver. Almost all of my shooting is steel challenge or outlaw steel. Only a little bit of ICORE and really no USPSA. The reason I'm shooting ISR this year in SCSA is to try to get used to shooting iron sight so I can shoot some ICORE Limited and USPSA revo maybe next year. So far it's been a real struggle. A few times this year I have won either a stage or had overall top OSR in smallish local Steel Matches. But that was only due to the fact that certain other shooters didn't show up. Around here in PA there quite a number of revolver shooters that can and do clean my clock with absolute ease. But still I want to do better and willing to work at it. I truly believe that it is hard work that makes the difference but having every advantage in hardware is worth having also.

You might be ok with an 8 pound trigger using factory ammo or reloads with CCI primers. I have all of mine at roughly 6.5 pounds, some revo shooters have them even lighter in the 5 pound range. The only thing that will work reliably in my revos are Federal SPP that are seated below flush or "crush seated". I'm not in any way, shape or form an expert as no one is asking me for my autograph yet but I do get to shoot with some of the revolver honchos from time to time and I can say without hesitation that a 6 or so pound DA revolver will not reliably light off anything other than Federal primers. I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 40,000 CCI and S&B primers that I cannot use in my revolvers because they simply don't work. Even with that many CCIs and having about 4000 Federals I was starting to worry as Federals can be a bit difficult to locate and when the opportunity to buy 22K Federals private sale came my way I bought them without a second thought, this was about 4 weeks ago.

Some say that S&W N frames are "kit guns". What they mean by this is even Performance Center guns are not really ready for competition. Both of my 929s had to have the cylinder trued as they both to a small extent had the cylinder scraped the forcing cone which made the action drag a bit, prolly a bent or out of true yoke. So you could send them back to S&W but instead I chose to have Pinnacle High Performance (who did my action work) true the gun, bring it into spec. I told Mark what I intended to use the gun for and he made suggestions and I agreeded to them I think it was about $400.00 per gun (not really sure it is all a blur) about that and less than 2 weeks down time. I have seen guys shoot totally stock S&Ws but not fun in my opinion. There is a ball detent already on the gun to hold the cylinder in the closed position but I wanted one to help keep the cylinder fully open to help with reloads. If the cylinder isn't fully open or starts to close while you are trying to cram a moon clip with fresh ammo makes reloading more time consuming and frustrating in my opinion. One of the reasons I believe guys that shoot 627s use short colts is it makes reloading easier and faster as 38 special is a long piece of brass. Reloading with a revolver is more time consuming than an auto loader and lots can go wrong so anything you can do to help speed up things is worth consideration. As I mentioned I have (2) 929s They both have slightly different headspace so to give me reasonable chance of hearing bang instead of click I use different moons for each gun. My open uses moons that are .040 thick, my iron uses .035 I could use the .040 in my iron but they are a bit tight and drags a little as the cylinder turns. Some people would not stand for that but I live with it. If I had the time I might experiment with different brass but since what I do now works and I'm too lazy to try a lot of things so I just live with it. Moon clips are another topic in and of themselves. I don't know what thickness moons are used on a 627. 9mm is a rimless cartridge and 38 (special or long/short colt) is a rimmed case. I think those use a thinner moon clip. What caliber and brand of moons you decide on will probably influence what brand or model of moon clip holders you put on your belt and what kind of tools you get to put your ammo in and remove from the moon clips. It sounds complicated but really it's not, it's just expensive that all! As far as thumb position there are different opinions, personally I fold my thumbs, my weak hand thumb is on top of my strong hand thumb and thus no where near the BC gap. Strong hand is as high on the frame as possible, the weak hand has a good strong grip. You will probably have to experiment and look at a bunch of you tubes to find what works best for you. I have small hands and really an N frame is too big for me but I suffer because I'm stubborn. I want to be of help here really I do but I feel as if I'm a bit out of my comfort zone giving advice in this kind of detail. So hopefully others will chime in with some opinions as there are some top revolvers shooters on this forum. I could tell you exactly what I own and in fact my tackle isn't what is holding me back rather it's just a lack of talent. But seriously a 627 is a time tested competition revo. A 929 is also good and comes with a titanium cylinder but a 6.5" barrel some like that others don't, me I don't know any better. My opinion is that the 929 balances fine but in either case you will probably ditch the factory grips in short order and that might change the balance anyway. If you have a budget of 2K and just want iron sights then you should be able to get the gun, have the action work done and buy enough moons (50 or so to start) and moon clip tools to get started. A competition belt, holster and moon clip holders for your belt will be extra. I use, like many others do, a DAA Race Master holster, a DAA belt and their magnetic moon clip holders (8 of them) and that's about $550.00 or so I'm actually trying to forget the actual cost.

For a 929 even though it is 9mm I and many others I know that use this gun use coated Bayous in 38 which I measure at .358 on a 1" mic. Personally I use 135g RN and about 3.5g TG seated as deep as I can get them. Federal primers seated below flush, Winchester 9mm brass. I have now told you all of my secrets kindly keep it to yourself. Thanks. 38 short colts will be similar to 9mm. Seriously though you can make yourself crazy trying to decide on what gun to get. If you are going to pursue SCSA, USPSA and ICORE then prolly will want at least 2 revos and maybe 3 or 4. If you stick with N frames then you can use the same belt/holster. I hardly ever shoot a 6 shot but have one competition ready. If you send your gun to TK (for example there are others) then tell them what you intend to use the gun for they will tell you what needs to be done and how big of a check to write LOL! Revolvers are fun and fun costs money.

Allow me to make a clear statement of opinion on the subject. If you are going to shoot USPSA revolver then you will want an 8 shot revolver such as, but not limited to a S&W 627 or 929 iron sight. This gun will also work for Steel Challenge ISR (Iron sight revolver) and ICORE Limited division. Note: as to the S&W 929 it is chambered in 9mm but don't think that you will shoot factory 9mm ammo. It's not that you cannot but as someone that has 2 of them take my word for it factory 9mm ammo is not for the medium to long haul. For Steel Challenge OSR (Optical Sight Revolver) and ICORE Open division again a 627 or 929 (8 shot) with a red dot. You can use a S&W 625, 686 or Colt Python (6 shot) for ICORE Limited 6 or Classic division (depending on if your using moons or speed loaders) or IDPA revolver (as long as the barrel is less than 4.2"). Forget the Mod 60 or any J-Frame except as a bug. Figure out first what competition will be your main thing then the gun you want, then the ancillary items will be easier to determine. Of course this is all just my opinion. I don't know about the new 627 but on both of my 929s they come with something like a 14 pound trigger. I had a revolversmith smooth out and lighten the trigger, hammer bob, extended firing pin, chamfer the charge holes, check headspace, BC gap true the yoke, F/O front sight, ball detent on the open yoke position. A few other things I just cannot remember right now. I added Hogue extended thumb latch and Big Butts and then 20K rounds to get semi-decent with the long (but now made a light 6.5 +/- pound) double action trigger. I assume that a 627 would need similar attention. Having said all of this shooting revolver, while I feel is a "hands on gun" is a lot of fun and worth the trouble. I'm basically a handgun piker and it has taken me about 3 years to make A in steel challenge OSR.

I really don't have any words of wisdom here. I'm a relatively new revo guy and at age 60 I don't have optimal eyesight anymore. I get the concerns regarding numbers of shooters in a division and that revolver is a low numbers gun. I've decided to get more involved in USPSA local matches for next year and for that reason I'm shooting both optic and iron in SCSA this year. I'm having so much troubles in iron sight that I have to literally talk myself into shooting every SCSA match ISR. It's not a hardware problem, it's just I don't have the vision anymore. So if there was a place for optics in USPSA revolver I would be interested but then when you factor in all of the other options such as Major/Minor pf there are problems there that need to be addressed. I guess no matter what the powers to be do, or if they keep things the way they are, there will be imperfections. And growing ICORE is difficult so I guess the life of a revo shooter is always going to be at best, difficult.