Minimum Age for ROs

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I do not have a problem with it as long as they take and pass the course to the satisfaction of the instructor. Some will have the maturity, some will not.

Example (actually loose example) When in high School, I was a little league umpire. Week after week a certain coach would give us a hard time. It finally came to a head when he (An adult and father) became abusive to the pitcher of another team. At 16yrs old, I ejected the man from the game for unsportsmanlike conduct. He did not argue since I think he was embarrassed that a kid threw him out. Of course, the support of the head umpire was always known.

Can a young man or woman run shooters and enforce rules? Of course they can. Can a shooter try to bully a young RO? Of course they can and that is why we have 10.6.1

[DWFAN]

I'm failing to see how the age of an RO has anything to do with a potential Legal issue if someone is injured. Is there a law that is being broken ?

Does an RO have a legal duty to perform any action ?

The RO isnt "In Charge" of your muzzle or trigger finger. YOU are.

Edited July 20, 2012 by DWFAN

[retarmyaviator]

I'm failing to see how the age of an RO has anything to do with a potential Legal issue if someone is injured. Is there a law that is being broken ?

Does an RO have a legal duty to perform any action ?

The RO isnt "In Charge" of your muzzle or trigger finger. YOU are.

In this day and age of predatory lawyers, yes, any opening they can find will result in a lawsuit if they desire. That opening here will be allowing a child to be in charge of a range course.

Does they have to be a rule broken? No, but it is not the USPSA rules that will be on trial, it will be those responsible for running the match. What will look better before a jury, an RO of legal age or an child of 12 as an RO? Both equal in qualifications but the jury will question the wisdom of putting a 12 year old in charge. Now you may win if the jury is made of folks who are of the same mentality as those who think turning a 6 year old loose on a four wheeler is a good idea.

[Nik Habicht]

I do appreciate all the comments, I was concerned when I first asked the question the thread would become heated.

About a decade ago I was run through a stage at an area match, by a CRO certified teenager, as were tens of other competitors. That young man at ~14 was a better range officer than I am today. Of course it probably helped a little that he was being raised by an NROI RM, who went on to become an RMI. Though the help in that case had more to do with how he was raised, than with anything dad taught him about officiating.

In other words, he was a very grown-up 14 year old, with a complete grasp of his responsibilities, the rationale for the safety rules, and the ability to articulate them in a court of law.....

I can't speak for all teenage range officers -- but teenagers, in my experience can make solid range officers. Much like with adults, it comes down to the individual!

[retarmyaviator]

I think it's conducive and helpful for the sport to teach the importance of the safety stuff to our juniors. Getting them started early in the appropriate circumstances is not a bad thing.

In that case would say a 6 year old if he passes the test is mature enough to be an RO? How early is too early?

[Nik Habicht]

I think it's conducive and helpful for the sport to teach the importance of the safety stuff to our juniors. Getting them started early in the appropriate circumstances is not a bad thing.

In that case would say a 6 year old if he passes the test is mature enough to be an RO? How early is too early?

Show me the six year old who can pass the written exam, the informal classroom participation evaluation, and the on range exercise, and we'll talk. Until then it's a specious argument.....

[retarmyaviator]

How many people do you hear of getting shot at any USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge/Bullseye event? Our greatest risk of injury is from a slip and fall because we are not all sure footed as we might always like to be. I do not see much of a chance for an RO under 18 to become a legal issue due to an injury. The earlier we start them in the sport the more mature and well rounded they will be as adults.

The case that prompted my question was an RO who was 11 years old. How early is too early for someone to be an RO?

One thing is for sure, if I step up to a stage run by an 11 year old I am seriously going to question the judgement of whoever made that decision.

Edited July 20, 2012 by retarmyaviator

[Nik Habicht]

How many people do you hear of getting shot at any USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge/Bullseye event? Our greatest risk of injury is from a slip and fall because we are not all sure footed as we might always like to be. I do not see much of a chance for an RO under 18 to become a legal issue due to an injury. The earlier we start them in the sport the more mature and well rounded they will be as adults.

The case that prompted my question was an RO who was 11 years old. How early is too early for someone to be an RO?

The question is irrelevant -- there are adults who have not passed the course, and adults who are not capable of being ROs. Should we certify them anyway because they "appear to be of an appropriate age?" Or should we base that certification on standards that are actually meaningful?

[Strick]

Everyone knows or shoots with a teenager that is wiser and more mature than his/her years. Of course as some have said that may not apply to all teenagers or kids. Also as some have hinted to they have been run by a kid but their parent was "supervising" So who exactly is running the shooter, the kid or the parent.

I think that the execution of a staqe is very dynamic and requires a certain level of critical thinking that kids lack. Why not just let them shoot and have a good time instead of putting them in a situation that has the possibility to end badly in a few different ways.

[Poppa Bear]

The age of the RO is irrelevant. What is important is their desire to participate in a match as an RO. As long as they pass the required exams I see no reason to deny them the ability to act as an RO. It was also expressed that what would the jury think about a child like that being in charge of a range? I have yet to met a Match Director, Range Master, or CRO who is that young. Any range that has a Teen/Tween acting as an RO will also have several senior parties present who will be overseeing the stage/match. Even in Nik's example there were others present who were senior.

[RUSHARP2]

I am not sure how old he is, but there is young guy in Georgia that passed the exam and runs shooters. Pretty sure he is the youngest ever.

Since I moved to Texas, I was at a club match where the MD/RM stated the range would not allow an "minor" to be a RO running shooters.

[remoandiris]

I'm a large person and I'm sure it's hard on "adult size" RO's to watch me. I don't see how a "child size" RO could be in a position to see everything going on if the gun is over their head height. That made sense in my head not sure it got out in the same sense.

That's exactly my thought

Seems like you guys should be more concerned about there being a height/weight requirement instead of an age requirement. So you guys are saying a 5' tall adult is o.k. with you, even though YOUR size is hard on an adult, but a 5' 16 yr old is too small?

[remoandiris]

The age of the RO is irrelevant. What is important is their desire to participate in a match as an RO. As long as they pass the required exams I see no reason to deny them the ability to act as an RO.

+1.

[OUshooter]

Personally I have no problem being ran by a young person. As a squad mate if the young person is being "bullied" by a shooter on a call it's no different than if the RO where 30something. I step in to help resolve and move the match forward.

If it's a Lvl II or higher match any RO of any age has no business being "coached" that's flat ridiculous. I would have called for the RM and gone to the MD if needed. A competitor has every right to question to a decision that let an unqualified person RO. It's possible the kid would have been fine if his father would have left him alone to do his business.

As far as the legal issue if someone was injured I don't really know. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see where a jury of reasonable people would think that had an adult RO been running the stage the outcome would be any different. Ultimately it's the shooter not the RO that's required to ensure they conduct themselves in a safe manner. The RO's job is to call them out if they don't. The RO doesn't have ESP and can't know what a shooter is going to do next.

[glock_40_caliber]

I'm a large person and I'm sure it's hard on "adult size" RO's to watch me. I don't see how a "child size" RO could be in a position to see everything going on if the gun is over their head height. That made sense in my head not sure it got out in the same sense.

So according to your logic, we need to have a height restriction for RO's, so they are not dwarfed by the competitors? I am interested to hear how height plays a part in determining how well your gun hand can be observed in the majority of stages that are shot, and what the minimum height should be.

One thing is for sure, if I step up to a stage run by an 11 year old I am seriously going to question the judgement of whoever made that decision.

You always have the option of asking for a different RO if you feel you cannot be given a fair run by the RO holding the timer. Perhaps you should evaluate your own attitudes before projecting them onto others. If you are afraid the young RO will make a mistake, take the issue up with the CRO. If not satisfied with the response from the CRO, talk with the RM. If still not satisfied, feel free to refrain from shooting that stage or match. Better yet, volunteer next to work next time, and mentor the young RO's in the proper methods and manners in which to run a successful match.

As for the legal implications, the person holding the firearm is still responsible for every bullet that leaves the gun. It does not matter if the RO is young, or retired. If there is a safety issue, as in the example of someone downrange and a competitor told to make ready, then everyone on the stage has an obligation to step in can correct it. Just because you were not the RO does not eliminate your liability if you knew an unsafe condition existed but did not act to correct it. If you are as your screen name implies a former service member, surely you have heard the phrase "everyone is a safety officer."

[Carmoney]

In this day and age of predatory lawyers, yes, any opening they can find will result in a lawsuit if they desire.

I'm a lawyer, and my practice is 100% devoted to defending civil lawsuits. I'm the guy who comes to the rescue when those predatory plaintiffs' lawyers go on the attack.

I'm also here to remind you that predatory lawyers can't file lawsuits without willing clients.

It's so easy to jump on the internet and bash the lawyers, but the real problem is societal opportunism and greed, and the blame-shifting that is an unfortunate fact of human nature.

[Poppa Bear]

In this day and age of predatory lawyers, yes, any opening they can find will result in a lawsuit if they desire.

I'm a lawyer, and my practice is 100% devoted to defending civil lawsuits. I'm the guy who comes to the rescue when those predatory plaintiffs' lawyers go on the attack.

I'm also here to remind you that predatory lawyers can't file lawsuits without willing clients.

It's so easy to jump on the internet and bash the lawyers, but the real problem is societal opportunism and greed, and the blame-shifting that is an unfortunate fact of human nature.

Not to drive you out of business, but how much business would you lose if the opposing side was responsible for all expenses if they lost? I hate dropping money into legal fees every time my wife's ex raises an issue Pro Se, but I know as long as he never has to pay my fees it will not end.

[Sarge]

A lot of you guys keep defending young RO's by implying teenagers are OK. The OP asked about an 11 year old. That's nowhere near a teenager in maturity typically. 11 years old is just a kid.

Seems too young to me. I don't care one way the other who RO's me as long as they are competent and don't have to be coached. As a shooter I want the stage to be run just like it would be if I were running a shooter. I don't have the patience nor the time to play a part in training any RO while I'm shooting a match.

[Craig N]

Do you think that an 11 year,or even an 18 year old for that matter, have enough match experience to know all the rules and application of the rules even if they do pass a test? This is what it really boils down to if you think about it. How many debates and different views do we have in the rules section over stuff we "all know" the answer to.

And yeah maybe there does to be a height requirement......if you have to be in position to make a call, how can you make the call if your view is blocked by the shooter. Height could effect the way the time is recorded on the timer. You always see the RO's hold the timer about shoulder high. Remember its an 11 year we are talking about.

[Poppa Bear]

A lot of you guys keep defending young RO's by implying teenagers are OK. The OP asked about an 11 year old. That's nowhere near a teenager in maturity typically. 11 years old is just a kid.

Seems too young to me. I don't care one way the other who RO's me as long as they are competent and don't have to be coached. As a shooter I want the stage to be run just like it would be if I were running a shooter. I don't have the patience nor the time to play a part in training any RO while I'm shooting a match.

I can see your point. I think a crucial element here is what is the overall situation? We have "RO's" who are not official but running the timer and scoreboard as a learning experience. We have RO's who are official and learning. We have RO's who are established enough that they tend to be the seniors who teach and instruct the newer RO's.

I can see an 11 to 14 year old in the first situation, unofficial and learning. Best served in a small practice match/ monthly match environment, embedded in an understanding squad.

I can see the 14 to 16 year old in the second situation. They are official and might get most of their experience at level 1 matches, but are also capable of being RO's at level 2 and 3 matches with the proper CRO.

I do not see anyone under 18 being in situation 3 unless they are that rare kid who's parent is a RM/RMI who has been instructing them since they were born.

[juan]

A lot of you guys keep defending young RO's by implying teenagers are OK. The OP asked about an 11 year old. That's nowhere near a teenager in maturity typically. 11 years old is just a kid.

Seems too young to me. I don't care one way the other who RO's me as long as they are competent and don't have to be coached. As a shooter I want the stage to be run just like it would be if I were running a shooter. I don't have the patience nor the time to play a part in training any RO while I'm shooting a match.

at a level 1 we should not train our future. I see level 1 as training for our bigger matches, as a shooter and as a RO.

[ClutchUSMC]

I almost don't want to add to this as most of my thoughts have already been covered. But, let me put my MD hat on for a little bit.

How many of you guys volunteer and work matches regularly? As in at least 15 times a year? I know from putting on a monthly 3gun match and from ROing several "majors" that it is almost impossible to find help. In fact I went to a "major" 3gun match this year with around 100 shooters, on day 1 we had 4 ROs. 1 experienced USPSA guy, Me, and 2 cops who had never shot a match and just wanted to check it out. The 2nd day of the match the squads just RO'ed themselves. This at a match equivalent to a L2 in USPSA speak.

At my monthly matches I run a one man show most of the time. I do all the admin, scores, stage design, dealing with the grump old men at the club, etc. We set up before and clean up after. And on top of that I am running a timer for 90% of the shooters. I usually take off when I'm on deck and go back after I can catch my breath and put my gear down.

Now, I'm not asking to be sainted, I love my sport and gladly give my time. But, I hear lots of bitching from guys about a kid wanting to work and help out. I guarantee at least one of you has never served as an RO. And there are a few others who like to stand in the back and talk while others set steel/ paste/ score/ etc.

I don't know the entire story, the kids skill or maturity level, or anything else. But if he told me he wanted to work and did his very best. I would shake his hand and say thank you.

Most of us who put on matches do it as a labour of love, we aren't going to just throw some kid off the street into the mix with you animals without being sure of his abilities. As previous people have stated, if you have a problem go to the MD/RM or just don't shoot. Or better yet, get your ass out and work the next match!

Edited July 21, 2012 by ClutchUSMC

[lawboy]

At every match I have attended, every shooters signs a hazardous activity waiver. Those waivers are quite strong in personal injury courts across the nation. All shooters have access to the rules and the rules do not include any age requirement for ROs, so all shooters are on notice that they might be RO'd by a minor. All shooters can at any time decline to shoot a course of fire for any reason. USPSA is a sport that contains many known health risks that are unavoidable, not the least of which is being shot my yourself or someone else. People sign off that they assume 100 percent of this risk themselves.

I am a trial lawyer and have handled plenty of personal injury cases -- on the defense side. USPSA would survive any such lawsuit well within their policy limits and, most likely, the Plaintiff would have A hard time finding a TRIAL lawyer once the waiver was trotted out. GET THOSE WAIVERS SIGNED AT THE LOCAL MATCHES.

Edited July 21, 2012 by lawboy

[Sarge]

I almost don't want to add to this as most of my thoughts have already been covered. But, let me put my MD hat on for a little bit.

How many of you guys volunteer and work matches regularly? As in at least 15 times a year? I know from putting on a monthly 3gun match and from ROing several "majors" that it is almost impossible to find help. In fact I went to a "major" 3gun match this year with around 100 shooters, on day 1 we had 4 ROs. 1 experienced USPSA guy, Me, and 2 cops who had never shot a match and just wanted to check it out. The 2nd day of the match the squads just RO'ed themselves. This at a match equivalent to a L2 in USPSA speak.

At my monthly matches I run a one man show most of the time. I do all the admin, scores, stage design, dealing with the grump old men at the club, etc. We set up before and clean up after. And on top of that I am running a timer for 90% of the shooters. I usually take off when I'm on deck and go back after I can catch my breath and put my gear down.

Now, I'm not asking to be sainted, I love my sport and gladly give my time. But, I hear lots of bitching from guys about a kid wanting to work and help out. I guarantee at least one of you has never served as an RO. And there are a few others who like to stand in the back and talk while others set steel/ paste/ score/ etc.

I don't know the entire story, the kids skill or maturity level, or anything else. But if he told me he wanted to work and did his very best. I would shake his hand and say thank you.

Most of us who put on matches do it as a labour of love, we aren't going to just throw some kid off the street into the mix with you animals without being sure of his abilities. As previous people have stated, if you have a problem go to the MD/RM or just don't shoot. Or better yet, get your ass out and work the next match!

I think more people contributing here do a lot more than you give them credit for. Sounds like you have some match issues that need fixed BAD. If you are comfortable with an 11 year old ROing your matches because you can't find anybody else to do it then do so. But if you were like some others here who have a dozen certified RO's shooting every match would you still let an 11 yo run a squad?

[ClutchUSMC]

I almost don't want to add to this as most of my thoughts have already been covered. But, let me put my MD hat on for a little bit.

How many of you guys volunteer and work matches regularly? As in at least 15 times a year? I know from putting on a monthly 3gun match and from ROing several "majors" that it is almost impossible to find help. In fact I went to a "major" 3gun match this year with around 100 shooters, on day 1 we had 4 ROs. 1 experienced USPSA guy, Me, and 2 cops who had never shot a match and just wanted to check it out. The 2nd day of the match the squads just RO'ed themselves. This at a match equivalent to a L2 in USPSA speak.

At my monthly matches I run a one man show most of the time. I do all the admin, scores, stage design, dealing with the grump old men at the club, etc. We set up before and clean up after. And on top of that I am running a timer for 90% of the shooters. I usually take off when I'm on deck and go back after I can catch my breath and put my gear down.

Now, I'm not asking to be sainted, I love my sport and gladly give my time. But, I hear lots of bitching from guys about a kid wanting to work and help out. I guarantee at least one of you has never served as an RO. And there are a few others who like to stand in the back and talk while others set steel/ paste/ score/ etc.

I don't know the entire story, the kids skill or maturity level, or anything else. But if he told me he wanted to work and did his very best. I would shake his hand and say thank you.

Most of us who put on matches do it as a labour of love, we aren't going to just throw some kid off the street into the mix with you animals without being sure of his abilities. As previous people have stated, if you have a problem go to the MD/RM or just don't shoot. Or better yet, get your ass out and work the next match!

I think more people contributing here do a lot more than you give them credit for. Sounds like you have some match issues that need fixed BAD. If you are comfortable with an 11 year old ROing your matches because you can't find anybody else to do it then do so. But if you were like some others here who have a dozen certified RO's shooting every match would you still let an 11 yo run a squad?

My match runs great. I have a good bunch of local shooters that do a ton of work. I wasn't in charge of the 100 shooters and 4 ROs debacle. I just volunteered to help out. I didn't say no one here helps out, if they didn't we wouldn't be here because there wouldn't be a match to shoot.

However, I shoot about 50 matches a year, mostly 3gun but some USPSA and IDPA as well. I get around to lot's of places and lots of different clubs. I see lots of shooters everywhere I go who are lazy and try to do the minimum. Or sit down pretty much anytime they aren't shooting. It happens at all levels from "Super Squads" I have RO'ed to just grumpy old guys that think they are special. I get asked to RO at 5 or 6 clubs I frequent because it seems we always have more shooters than people who want to work? I don't think people are jumping out of the woodwork to help out anywhere else, but I could be wrong.

If I had 1000 seasoned ROs and a COMPETENT 11 year old wanted to run a squad I would let him. Unless you don't want to expand the sport, let new people learn, and have RO's for the future?

Would you even make an argument about not letting someone that NROI has certified run you based on their sex, creed, color, shoe size, or anything else?

Edited July 21, 2012 by ClutchUSMC