ClutchUSMC Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 FWIW KC made Master at 8 and GM at 12 if I recall. I coach 4h rifle and pistol teams and have 12 year olds that are assistant coaches and 16 year olds I have to watch like hawks. You can't determine someone's ability to be responsible without testing them. That's what the RO course and subsequent test is for, is it not? I have seen plenty of grown men that shouldn't be ROs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 At every match I have attended, every shooters signs a hazardous activity waiver. Those waivers are quite strong in personal injury courts across the nation. All shooters have access to the rules and the rules do not include any age requirement for ROs, so all shooters are on notice that they might be RO'd by a minor. All shooters can at any time decline to shoot a course of fire for any reason. USPSA is a sport that contains many known health risks that are unavoidable, not the least of which is being shot my yourself or someone else. People sign off that they assume 100 percent of this risk themselves. I am a trial lawyer and have handled plenty of personal injury cases -- on the defense side. USPSA would survive any such lawsuit well within their policy limits and, most likely, the Plaintiff would have A hard time finding a TRIAL lawyer once the waiver was trotted out. GET THOSE WAIVERS SIGNED AT THE LOCAL MATCHES. Having everybody sign waivers is all fine and good, but it is certainly not the ultimate solution that you suggest, lawboy. In most jurisdictions, minors are not considered competent to enter into a contract--so the waivers are essentially meaningless for junior shooters. Sure, parents can sign the waiver along with their child, but lacking review by a guardian ad litem and a court order, those parental signatures generally don't mean squat. Then we have the next problem: In most jurisdictions, an adult shooter might be able to sign away his own right to sue, but that waiver would not have any binding impact on other potential plaintiffs who would have the right to sue for loss of consortium--namely spouses and children. Heck in some jurisdictions, including here in Iowa, even adult children have consortium rights. In order to address this exposure, some waivers also have an indemnification provision included--unfortunately, these are generally not enforced by the courts. And finally: Liability waivers are sometimes held to be unenforceable by the courts for various reasons, including (1) lack of proper execution, (2) duress, mistake, or any number of other general contractual defenses, and (3) when the situation is extreme enough that it rises to the level of gross negligence. Liability waivers are better than nothing. Either way, everybody (and I'm talking club entities and individual shooters) should make sure there is plenty of insurance in place, and be able to show strict adherence to all of USPSA and NROI's policies and safety rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 To address the original question: In my opinion--having personal experience as a parent of a junior shooter who is now a young adult shooter--IPSC/USPSA shooting is not an appropriate activity for children under the age of 11 or 12. I know plenty of young shooters with sufficient match experience and judgment to RO at 16-18. By the the time my son was 16 he already had far more major match experience than most of the people participating in this thread! However, I do think 11 is too young to RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Would you even make an argument about not letting someone that NROI has certified run you based on their sex, creed, color, shoe size, or anything else? If they are NROI certified then I have to let them TRY. If they don't cut it to my satisfaction then they can be asexual, pink, two feet tall, etc and they won't run one more shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I have seen plenty of grown men that shouldn't be ROs. Which creates more problems for us all. Somebody said we should trust an RMI to not turn a kid loose if he was not capable, yet some RMI somewhere blessed the RO's you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 On the legal issue, wouldn't the cause of action be a negligence action? And, as a negligence action, wouldn't there need to be a determination of breach, proximate cause, and cause-in-fact, that's assuming the range and USPSA have a duty of care? As such, wouldn't we be asking the factual question about the junior's ability to handle the duties of RO that some of us have been talking about, irrespective of his age, whether it relates to breach, proximate cause, or factual cause? Yes, the plaintiff would be arguing that age is prima facie evidence of all of those elements, but they'd have to prove that the kid wasn't suitable for the position he was in. Basically the kid would be on trial. That would be ugly for the plaintiff. Just some ramblings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Just some ramblings. Yes. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike l m Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 These shooting clubs that put on matches have volunteers who take the time to help. May it be set-up,admin, run the squads, whatever. If there is a person that is young (11-15 or younger) and wants to RO a group and can do it, thats great. The sport or clubs will grow. It may also show some of the old farts to get off their butt and help alittle more. I have seen alot in the last 30 years shooting USPSA, IDPA, Carbine,BPCC. I do not have a problem with a younger person that has the exprience, drive and determination to RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glock_40_caliber Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Do you think that an 11 year,or even an 18 year old for that matter, have enough match experience to know all the rules and application of the rules even if they do pass a test? This is what it really boils down to if you think about it. How many debates and different views do we have in the rules section over stuff we "all know" the answer to. And yeah maybe there does to be a height requirement......if you have to be in position to make a call, how can you make the call if your view is blocked by the shooter. Height could effect the way the time is recorded on the timer. You always see the RO's hold the timer about shoulder high. Remember its an 11 year we are talking about. That 18 year old would have the same chance of having match experience and know the proper application of the rules as a 45 year old shooter. Age does not automatically grant experience and wisdom for this sport. Just because an RO may be younger than you are does not mean they do not have any experience. Someone brought up KC, and his classification at 8 years old. I have been shooting USPSA for 7 years now, and by the time KC was 11 or 12, he probably had more major match experience than I do. What do you recommend for a minimum height? I've seen some pretty tall kids, and some pretty short adults. RO seminars are where NROI determines who is officially certified as an RO. I do not know of any RO's that have not received much of their initial experience running shooters at level 1 matches. Yes, that is the level more experienced RO's should be stepping up to mentor newer range officers regardless of their age. You do not get National's level range officials without providing an opportunity to gain experience somewhere. Heck, a year before I attended a seminar I was running the squad under the supervision of the 'certified' RO. Without that mentoring, I probably would not have taken the time to get certified, and volunteer to work the larger matches I have. Well, there is the big paycheck that goes with working matches of all levels, right? I have seen junior shooters display a much higher level of firearm safety than quite a few adults that should know better. If the junior does not have what it takes to contribute as a range officer, follow the same procedures as you would for an adult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I'm a large person and I'm sure it's hard on "adult size" RO's to watch me. I don't see how a "child size" RO could be in a position to see everything going on if the gun is over their head height. That made sense in my head not sure it got out in the same sense. So according to your logic, we need to have a height restriction for RO's, so they are not dwarfed by the competitors? I am interested to hear how height plays a part in determining how well your gun hand can be observed in the majority of stages that are shot, and what the minimum height should be. Maybe there needs to be height/girth requirements for shooters!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I'm a large person and I'm sure it's hard on "adult size" RO's to watch me. I don't see how a "child size" RO could be in a position to see everything going on if the gun is over their head height. That made sense in my head not sure it got out in the same sense. So according to your logic, we need to have a height restriction for RO's, so they are not dwarfed by the competitors? I am interested to hear how height plays a part in determining how well your gun hand can be observed in the majority of stages that are shot, and what the minimum height should be. Maybe there needs to be height/girth requirements for shooters!! Girth would eliminate over half of us. My club is FMPSA (Fargo-Moorhead Practical Shooting Association). We quickly modified it to Fat Men Pretending to Shoot Accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 My club is FMPSA (Fargo-Moorhead Practical Shooting Association). We quickly modified it to Fat Men Pretending to Shoot Accurately. How does one apply to become a member of Team FMPSA? I meet all the requirements (other than location). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 How does one apply to become a member of Team FMPSA? I meet all the requirements (other than location). +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 If you sell stickers or patches, I bet you'll get a lot of orders from all over the country as well as abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I will have to run that past the other board members. We probably could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 We should consider a maximum age for ROs before a minimum one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 <sarcasm> Minimum retreat speed for those retreating stages. </sarcasm> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig N Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Look at all the butt hurt over a hypothetical kid RO and people super imposing "their kid" into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 The existence of Doogie Howser the teenage doctor proves that a 10 year old RO is OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retarmyaviator Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Look at all the butt hurt over a hypothetical kid RO and people super imposing "their kid" into it. Not hypothetical, someone signed an eleven year old off in my state to be an RO which is why I asked the original question in this thread. I would not sign an eleven year old off to mow my lawn let alone be an RO no matter whose kid it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Look at all the butt hurt over a hypothetical kid RO and people super imposing "their kid" into it. Not hypothetical, someone signed an eleven year old off in my state to be an RO which is why I asked the original question in this thread. I would not sign an eleven year old off to mow my lawn let alone be an RO no matter whose kid it was. To each their own. Performance, knowledge and skill matter more to me than age. If an 11-year old does the job correctly, fine. If a 25-year old (or more) doesn't do the job correctly, I'll take an 11-year old who does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 The existence of lousy ROs who are over 21 has nothing to do with the issue of children running shooters in a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 IMO the issue of age has nothing to do with ROs. Is the RO competent or not? That is the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retarmyaviator Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Look at all the butt hurt over a hypothetical kid RO and people super imposing "their kid" into it. Not hypothetical, someone signed an eleven year old off in my state to be an RO which is why I asked the original question in this thread. I would not sign an eleven year old off to mow my lawn let alone be an RO no matter whose kid it was. To each their own. Performance, knowledge and skill matter more to me than age. If an 11-year old does the job correctly, fine. If a 25-year old (or more) doesn't do the job correctly, I'll take an 11-year old who does. I suppose maturity doesn't count much in your book. NO 11 year old has the maturity to do an adults job, pointing out failing adults to justify allowing a child to do an adult's job is wrong in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Look at all the butt hurt over a hypothetical kid RO and people super imposing "their kid" into it. Not hypothetical, someone signed an eleven year old off in my state to be an RO which is why I asked the original question in this thread. I would not sign an eleven year old off to mow my lawn let alone be an RO no matter whose kid it was. To each their own. Performance, knowledge and skill matter more to me than age. If an 11-year old does the job correctly, fine. If a 25-year old (or more) doesn't do the job correctly, I'll take an 11-year old who does. I suppose maturity doesn't count much in your book. NO 11 year old has the maturity to do an adults job, pointing out failing adults to justify allowing a child to do an adult's job is wrong in itself. Maturity doesn't correspond well with age. I'm 28 and still act like I'm 12. You only have to grow up as far as you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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