ima45dv8 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Cool. And just to add to what Nik said, when I took the CRO course I thought it would be all about some super-secret rules and interpretations that were held back in the Level I RO course. Nope. It's about helping produce quality, rule-compliant stages and matches for the mutual benefit of all who attend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Does anyone else here think that the rulebook could be better written to explain what is "within" a shooting box or fault line? The book does a good job of describing "out". Everything that is not "out" is "in". Pretty simple... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I do think both feet in the air outside the box isnt a fault line penalty it isnt "In the box" either so could warrant one or more procedurals based on a WSB violation.I you arnt out of the box or shooting area unless a foot touches the ground outside it, then I say you arnt "In" the box if at least one body part isnt still touching. You can think that all you want, but the USPSA rule book is pretty clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 This discussion is getting a little old ... The rule book clearly defines "out of the box". If you havent already I suggest you look it up, simply so you know how it may affect your match (not for the purposes of RO'ing anyone else). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Chuck S wrote: The book does a good job of describing "out". Everything that is not "out" is "in". Pretty simple... Would it really hurt for the rulebook to expound upon that? A picture is worth a thousand words dontchya know? Have a pic of a dude in midair shooting with the caption "not a foot fault". Have a pic of one Nike Landshark on the gravel out of the box, with one Landshark on the gravel inside the box and caption it (Foot Fault!) Have a pic of a Landshark on the wooden 2X2 fault line, with one foot still inside the box.... Blah...blah...yada...yada... you get the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Chuck S wrote:The book does a good job of describing "out". Everything that is not "out" is "in". Pretty simple... Would it really hurt for the rulebook to expound upon that? A picture is worth a thousand words dontchya know? Have a pic of a dude in midair shooting with the caption "not a foot fault". Have a pic of one Nike Landshark on the gravel out of the box, with one Landshark on the gravel inside the box and caption it (Foot Fault!) Have a pic of a Landshark on the wooden 2X2 fault line, with one foot still inside the box.... Blah...blah...yada...yada... you get the picture. Why make the rulebook any more complicated than it already is. I think there are a few grey areas that could be better defined. This isn't one of them. 10.2.1 clearly defines out of the box. Everything else is in the box. Does it really require 27 8x10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 You'll be accessing it in .pdf version...so what does it matter what the size of the pic is or how many colors it is? Only the newbies and fresh RO's will be getting hard copies of the rulebook. Trust me when I tell ya that USPSA has enough loot coming in each year to cover the few cents extra per rulebook that would cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Even though I like books with pictures .... and I think more restaurants should have pictures on their menus ...... I dont think we need more pictures in our rule book. The words are clear enough. Out is out. That's when a penalty is applied. Not until. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 ^^^ That's easy for you to say...seeing how you're a 4 division master and will have been doing this for 8 years come this March. The new guys starting out...unclassified across all the divisions... ...hmmn... maybe not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) Well, it's easy enough for someone who doesnt quite understand to ask an RO about what is out prior to shooting a stage. If you dont know, just ask. But the rule book should always be referred to when making that call. I've seen this issue pop up at Level 2 & 3 major matches and be enforced differently on different stages, so I think having a rule book that can be considered "law" is a good thing. Maybe a picture or two wouldnt hurt, but words should be good enough. I mean we dont have a big book of pictures that tell us how to stop at a stop light, do we? Might be a picture of a "stop sign" or a red light, but do we have pictures of the cars tires and where they are in relationship to the red light? The words in the "Law Book" are enough to enable a cop to make a judgment call on the spot. Edited December 18, 2009 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 ^^^ That's easy for you to say...seeing how you're a 4 division master and will have been doing this for 8 years come this March.The new guys starting out...unclassified across all the divisions... ...hmmn... maybe not so much. You don't have to be a Master shooter to read and understand the rulebook. And it's not about how much it costs to print the rulebook. It's about limiting the rulebook to what is necessary to officiate the sport. Explain to us what you don't understand about 10.2.1, and how a picture would make it clearer. Do we need a picture showing a trigger guard that is completely covered? How about a picture showing all the legal ways toes can be touching X marks. Does "hands above respective shoulders" mean my fingers can't be touching my ear muffs or my hat brim? Maybe a few pictures would help clarify that also. It kind of feels like you are just itching for a fight on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Here, just watch this video: 2007 Missouri Fall Classic: Learn Some Patience Stage Just how many newbies know what to do when a popper doesn't fall? Now...wait...just wait a minute...stay tuned to the end of the video and listen to all the conflicting advice that I get. At least one of those guys is a Master classed shooter who has been doing this for more than ten years. I would rather error on the side of caution, and put too much information into the rulebook, rather than not enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Its not all a "picture" of what's up but its the way you approach ROing a stage. If there's no rule you can't then you can. If you are not out then you are in. Its the basis of freestyle and a foundation of our sport. By the way Troy has been RM at a whole bunch of Nationals and large matches so if he says it is, then its probably true. I have only seen him wrong three times and yes all three of those were doubles Troy. When I was new, first I learned the rules, up and down. I also tried to listen and learn from people who knew more than I did. I probably should still do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 ^^^ That's easy for you to say...seeing how you're a 4 division master and will have been doing this for 8 years come this March.The new guys starting out...unclassified across all the divisions... ...hmmn... maybe not so much. That probably true. They likely won't know. Why should they if they haven't yet taken a Level I class or inquired from those who have been around for a longer period of time? A Level I class is an invaluable tool to anyone competing in this sport, whether that person ever intends to actually run a timer or not. As Chris correctly stated it makes you a better shooter/competitor. Barring the availability of an RO class, asking questions is a great way to gain insight. Accepting the answers provided is a separate and equally useful skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01G8R Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 Thanks for all of the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Yeah, but how many newbies are really going to ask "Okay... What is considered in? And what is considered out?" I think most of them will be too worried about upsetting the order of things...taking too long before they make ready and possibly pissing off some of the regulars. And if they aren't too scared ask, they'll just be too un-initiated to ask...for example: "Excuse me, Mr. RO, if I place my foot here on this stick when I am shooting, is that considered in or out?" "Oh, okay, but what if my foot goes over the edge, and my toe touches the gravel?" I think it would be pretty rare to have a new guy have that much gumption to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Here, just watch this video:2007 Missouri Fall Classic: Learn Some Patience Stage Just how many newbies know what to do when a popper doesn't fall? Hard to say. I don't know how many of them have read that rulebook they received with their membership packet. Now...wait...just wait a minute...stay tuned to the end of the video and listen to all the conflicting advice that I get. At least one of those guys is a Master classed shooter who has been doing this for more than ten years. That had to be confusing and frustrating. And no offence intended to 10-year Masters, but I've seen more than a few profoundly experienced competitors who have never fully read the rulebook. What you really needed was a damn good DRL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 For whatever it's worth, I was still uncertain about what to do when I met a reluctant popper. It was only until Gary Stevens set us right at a Level I RO class that I felt confident in knowing what to do for the next balky popper I would meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Yeah, but how many newbies are really going to ask "Okay... What is considered in? And what is considered out?"I think most of them will be too worried about upsetting the order of things...taking too long before they make ready and possibly pissing off some of the regulars. And if they aren't too scared ask, they'll just be too un-initiated to ask...for example: "Excuse me, Mr. RO, if I place my foot here on this stick when I am shooting, is that considered in or out?" "Oh, okay, but what if my foot goes over the edge, and my toe touches the gravel?" I think it would be pretty rare to have a new guy have that much gumption to ask. 'New Shooter Briefings' go a long way towards avoiding issues like this. Some places do it better than others. But to answer your question, I've had a lot of new shooters ask questions like these and am glad to explain anything I can. It's part of how we grow good shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Yeah, I am kinda thinking about putting on a new shooter class come say February or March, right before the weather gets better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) gotta love it when someone posts what they think is a simple question, well that depends on what you mean by "is" I think the question isnt so much "out" it is the fact in isnt defined, saying everything that isnt out is in isnt correct. You can be out of my yard but that doesnt make you in my house. Lets look at a WSB like this: Engage T1 T2, T3, while standing in box A, Engage T4, T5, T6 while standing in box B, well assume the COF is six targets 15 yards down range and two boxes 5 yards apart along the firing line, so shooter starts in A , while engaging t3 he is in the air but outside the box, we all agree no fault since he hasnt touched the ground outside A, Using the interpretation of what isnt out is in, while in the air or while hopping to Box B shooter engages 4,5, and 6, I dont think this is right, I think the what is out foot fault doesnt start until the shooter establishes himself in the shooting area, for instance the shooter takes off to box B gets one foot in box but momentum carries him past box at that point the in the air fault exception applies. Edited December 18, 2009 by Joe4d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 @018R... You're welcome. Sorry to have drifted your thread so much. And one hint for ya...always....always read the written stage description for yourself, don't necessarily rely on someone to read it out loud for you and paraphrase it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Yeah, I am kinda thinking about putting on a new shooter class come say February or March, right before the weather gets better. I think every match in this area asks during sign up if there are any new shooters present. If so, someone is assigned to do a new shooter's briefing before the match starts. Admittedly, some nuances like "in or out of a shooting box" probably don't get covered well (if at all), but at least we know who needs help the rest of the day with rules, course management, how to paste, etc. A class like you are planning would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I thought the analogy of the basketball 3 point shot.. was spot on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Here, just watch this video:2007 Missouri Fall Classic: Learn Some Patience Stage Just how many newbies know what to do when a popper doesn't fall? Hard to say. I don't know how many of them have read that rulebook they received with their membership packet. +1. The problem isn't with the rulebook. It's with the reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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