New reticle in a 1-4x24 scope

[RufDog]

It looks like things have calmed down in here a bit. As a Johnny come lately to the last 2 pages of this thread I have a few things to be considered. If you ask a question of the professional you'd better be receptive not argumenative. Virtually no LE & military personell shoot enough or train in such a way to develop the knowledge and experience in gun handling that an accomplished 3-Gunner has.

Cutting edge techniques are developed and refined in our sport as well as validation of equipment of which modifications are born.

Consider this- most extreme accuracy developments have came out of benchrest for obvious reasons.

I pose a question- if you had some random person from your local gym and an olympic athelete in front of you, who would you ask for fitness advise?

Dont tell me about the market, I am in the market from about 6 different angles. In the past I have spoken to Leupold about their scope used by military snipers & how it could use some improving. They claimed thats what "they" wanted. I AM THEY! So, the original point.... if you ask you should listen. I personally hesitate to dignify your question with a response considereing your attitude so that you can get some kudos with a company. I find it insulting that you would argue with persons of credibility.

[abn-rgr]

I have to agree with Tod. Most .mil and LEO dont know what they dont know. Give a guy an ACOG, he is going to love it. Its a helluva of a lot better than his iron sights (sorry Kurt!!). The 120 rounds he shoots a year isnt going to let him know any better. The guys that are telling these companies what the .mil need dont shoot much more. They are usually some fat cat in building 1 at Benning. People right here on this forum who shoot thousands of rounds a year are going to know what works and what doesnt. Unfortunately, unless you are in the mil and an "operator", most companies wont listen to you. Ask the 2 5th group guys who RO'd at benning. They will tell you how much they learned from watching 3 gunners do their thing at Benning. These are the kind of guys who have the opportunity to make a change with the "powers that be". In the meanwhile, We use whats best. I personally have my eye on a new SWARVO 1x6......

[outerlimits]

Has anyone spent time with this reticle from Trijicon? I'm sure there is a good reason, but I'd love to see this thing in the 1-4x AccuPoint. ETA - can or does anyone do custom reticles for the Accupoints?

i have one on order in a TA11...green though.

[Brian Gonsalves]

I really don't have enough knowledge to even post on this subject, however I couldn't sleep and was playing with some new photo software. Here's what I put together using some pictures from earlier in this topic.

Comments?

Edited December 18, 2009 by Brian Gonsalves

[Sterling White]

What are the specs for your picture - power, line width at which power, dot size at 100?

Give a guy an ACOG, he is going to love it.

Well yeah! But that is not the point of conversation. This conversation is all about high speed and low drag. Edited December 18, 2009 by Sterling White

[Brian Gonsalves]

What are the specs?

Don't really have any specs, just cut and paste from these pictures:

Reticles

[abn-rgr]

What are the specs for your picture - power, line width at which power, dot size at 100?

Give a guy an ACOG, he is going to love it.

Well yeah! But that is not the point of conversation. This conversation is all about high speed and low drag.

My point was a guy doesnt know any better if thats the best thing you have given him to use. Its always going to beat irons. Most soldiers dont even train with optics. They deploy and the supply guy says "here, try this out".

[00bullitt]

I really don't have enough knowledge to even post on this subject, however I couldn't sleep and was playing with some new photo software. Here's what I put together using some pictures from earlier in this topic.

Comments?

Since you have this ability......take the reticle from the very first post in this thread. Just use the broken circle and dot and add the Velocity stadia tree below it without the vertical line.Remove the 300 hash if it fits better.

[00bullitt]

Down here in the south we've got a couple of 20th group guys that shoot 3 gun and USPSA pistol with us(and hard to beat at that). They actually take back alot of what they learn in the game to the guys they train in the field. The top ends on their work rifles also show alot of thought gathered from the game. There just are not enough MIL guys(in the right positions)that play with us......but I constantly see that the ones that do.....learn alot from it and carry it back. Its just taking longer to trickle down the ladder. But it is trickling. Now its a feat of getting the manufacturers to hear and listen to the correct end users. And no i don't just mean 3 gunners.

For example....rufdog,abn-rgr,bigbear,proctor1,whiskey1,2alphas,bear1142 all come to mind. They take what equipment and skill is used efficiently and effectively in the game back and apply it to the real world whether it be LE or MIL. The problem is.....there is not enough of these guys getting listened to.

[smokshwn]

Ruf and Tod

great posts.

[RufDog]

THX

[AlamoShooter]

I really don't have enough knowledge to even post on this subject, however I couldn't sleep and was playing with some new photo software. Here's what I put together using some pictures from earlier in this topic.

Comments?

Since you have this ability......take the reticle from the very first post in this thread. Just use the broken circle and dot and add the Velocity stadia tree below it without the vertical line.Remove the 300 hash if it fits better.

That sounds good. If you have Ballistic software you can get the Min" of drop for the 69 gr bullet

Example = a 69 -BC.305- @ 2800fps 200 yard -0-

300 yards it drops 2.79min / 400y 6.4 min /500y 10.8 min /600y 16.3min 800y30.4min 1000y50.5min

That lets you space your strada marks naturally you would not want every mark to 1000 . but a 50.min bot of post mark would be better than having the bottom of the post go to inf.

The 55 gr bullet going over 3000fps is very close to the 69 going slower.

I think it would be nice if the horizontal marks were smaller

The idea that a scope could work for a 3 gun match and a long range 700y prairie rat is what I would pay extra for. even twice what a Meopta sells for. The scope could be marketed as a two in one scope.

If the thing does not make a $$$ we will never one

as long as the matches have targets at sling shot range no one is going to spend big $$$ on better optics.

A buddy that earns 10x what I do does not see any reason to buy good glass.

I was thinking on a separate thread for the scope/ sponsors of matches to ask for stages / a stage that tested their scope.

That would be a good way to market sponsors "This stage has X amount of test positions for your product"

At Fort B. the shotgun stage was sponsored by Sabre Defence

[SHELLFISH17]

I volunteer to be the retical drawer and poster if anyone wants to send me their ideas or tweek the ones that have been posted. I think after we've had a week of discusion then we can hold a POLL to get everyone to vote on how ever many we get and then that will give Erik and Bobby an idea of peoples preference. I like Eriks and several others so I will post some that I have and please pm or email me anything you want drawn. sheldon_blackwell@candfsteel.com

[Brian Gonsalves]

I really don't have enough knowledge to even post on this subject, however I couldn't sleep and was playing with some new photo software. Here's what I put together using some pictures from earlier in this topic.

Comments?

Since you have this ability......take the reticle from the very first post in this thread. Just use the broken circle and dot and add the Velocity stadia tree below it without the vertical line.Remove the 300 hash if it fits better.

Ok, when I get home tonight I will give it a try!

[SHELLFISH17]

[00bullitt]

Shellfish......the reticle in E is close to what I mean. Remove the intersecting crosshair and vertical line extending below the tree. Maybe leave some short horizontal lines outside of the circle for horizontal reference.

I think the broken circle is less than 50moa which I prefer it to be at least 50moa. And the thickness of the broken circle is about twice as thick as I prefer it as well.

In all honesty....Eriks reticle works great(I have actually used it). And once he gets the dot reduced to 2moa its damn near good to go. Just add daytime illumination

ETA: I think the outer circle on Eriks reticle above is actually 2moa in thickness.

[bigbrowndog]

Todd, I shoot and have shot those little bullets way out to past 300, and if you are taking the time to look at stadia windage marks and calculate the wind and how or where you are holding and then squeeze the trigger,while the clock is running.............................................you are losing at this game!!!!!

The 69's, and 75's and 77's that seem to be prevalent offer nearly the same drag and windage numbers as my .308 155's so your comment which I assume was made in jest is incorrect.

However I am still waiting for someone to tell me WHY, windage stadia lines are NEEDED in a 3 gun reticle. Especially when they are not NEEDED apparently 95% to 99% of the time???????????????????????????? I assume this based on the fact that no credible answer to my query has come out, and yet people still want the view obscured. I think your statement, you don't know what you don't know seems to fit here.

Your example of aiming over the 300 yard target and giving it some wind, contradicts your earlier statement of dialing the range for LR targets as well?????

I do not want to be argumentative, but ATAS crap does not belong in a good 3 gun scope!!! I am willing to concede provided a viable reply exists.

Trapr

Edited December 18, 2009 by bigbrowndog

[Mike P]

After looking at all of these, I'd just as soon see the regular IOR cqb reticle with a aimpoint 2 minute dot in the middle.

[00bullitt]

Yes Trapr.....my comment about small bullets was meant totally in jest. I know you have shot many of them small bullets. I was pokin' at you.

Are you talking about not having any windage holds at all. Because I'm not talking about having more than a 10mph hold off like in Erik's reticle.More than that is not necessary. Before we go onto a stage...we usually have an idea of wind before we shoot the stage so having to dope what the wind is doing while behind the gun is usually a lesser issue. Its simply usually knowing the correction and holding for that.

I thought I substantiated my want for windage holds in my last post. I've needed them in the past and did not have them. Yes....the amount of times I have needed them have been slim. But I remember every time I needed them and did not have them. So yes....I prefer to have 10mph hold offs for every distance in the tree. Are they needed in 3 gun. NO. I want them.

Yes....I said I said I dial for targets over 300.....on my Swarovski. I prefer not dial if I have a reticle that supports not doing so.

[Brian Payne]

I vote for reticle "A" above as long as the horseshoe and dot are daylight illuminated.

The only thing I would add is to have small circles at the ends of the 400, 500, and 600 stadia lines to correspond with the size of the human head at that distance at the highest magnification. Much like the GRSC scope. 3-gunners wouldn't need this so much as we can laser our targets prior to shooting, but LE and MIL aren't so lucky. Having head size reference points at each longer stadia lines at least gives the shooter something range off of.

[00bullitt]

Starting to have low power optics that have ranging capability is completely unnecessary and starts to fall into a different realm of optic.

We can quickly add unnecessary clutter to these reticle as Trapr eludes to by adding windage marks and ranging references.

We want them.....but do we NEED them?

Its about keeping it simple......KISS.

[Shay1911]

We want them.....but do we NEED them?

Its about keeping it simple......KISS.

Know your ballistic table for your ammo and use holdovers?

[outerlimits]

i took my GRSC reticle and ripped out the stuff i consider "busy" for 3 gun, and added trijicon color to it. this would be it for me...

[00bullitt]

We want them.....but do we NEED them?

Its about keeping it simple......KISS.

Know your ballistic table for your ammo and use holdovers?

Do you mean as in float your reticle over the target?

[Shay1911]

We want them.....but do we NEED them?

Its about keeping it simple......KISS.

Know your ballistic table for your ammo and use holdovers?

Do you mean as in float your reticle over the target?

I am speaking with zero experience. If drop at 300 yards is 8.3 inches and at 400 its 24 inches, assuming your target is a 10" plate, can you estimate where to put your reticle?