Pistol Troubles

[Sarge]

This is not a hate rant. Nor is it a bashing of a particular gun.

I warn you now. This is going to be random and confusing but I just have to get all this junk off my chest.

Is it, or should it be so hard to make a gun run right? Just when I start feeling more confident in my abilities my gun will let me down, AGAIN. The real PITA is that one issue will get cleared up and then another one crops up the next time out. I truly believe I have a good gun but sometimes it gets pretty hard..... This year I had to send it to the factory to get extraction problems fixed. I thought, no big deal. Figured it was a glitch that needed fixed and it was. Have not had extraction problems since.

Then I started having light strikes that appeared to be my fault due to loading too long which resulted in the bullet contacting the lands and keeping the gun from going all the way in to battery. Problem fixed.

Loading with 3.6 solo1000 in 9mm with 147 Precisions at 1.11. My chrono gives me a PF of 135+. Good accurate load with low recoil.

Last week I run a 13lb spring and the gun seems to try to fire out of battery. I posted that problem here and agree with ther consensus of the replies. The striker actually struck in the seam between the primer and hull. Made sense to me. The slide was very easy to move so I took a prominent smith's, for my particular gun's, advice and went back to stock only for reliability. Shot it saturday in a steel match and it worked perfect and produced some pretty good times. I was happy at last.

Then last night I shoot an indoor match and go figure, three misfires. One was a light strike for sure. BUT, I could not see any marks at all on any of my other rounds picked up after the course of fire. I actually can't swear that rounds even chambered as I was trying to focus on shooting well. The misfires were very distinct clicks so I know the gun was cocking.

I ask another shooter who's opinion I trust if he saw anything out of the ordinary and his remark was that I need to change springs because my loads sound very weak. All I can think is WTF! 136 PF should run this gun! He said the loads were very quiet and the gun looked sluggish. I certainly agree that it sounds like the loads could be the problem but I can't see how. I thought s1000 would produce a mild report but the gun being sluggish bothers me.

Now, I am no gunsmith, nor am I a world class shooter but could I be outrunning the gun if it is too sluggish? If it is wanting to fire out of battery am I trying to shoot before it is all the way closed or is it probably not closing all the way or not staying closed for some reason? My shooting mentor told me to send it to a good smith and get him to make it run right. I was planning to send it to one in January anyway for a trigger job but now I am wondering if I could ease my suffering considerably if I just scrap the gun and go with something else. I can't convince myself it is prudent to spend possibly hundreds of dollars to make a $500 gun work.

I can turn up my loads but I'm not convinced that will solve my problems. Besides, at what point do you start giving up the advantage of mild shooting loads in order to make a gun work 100%.

If I had the money in my pocket right now I would have a limited gun built and just be done with it. But right now I have other financial priorities. I thought of going with a G35 but don't want to settle. I would like to get my gun to run for another year until I can get any gun I want.

I have seen many posts bragging about the Glocks in production just running and running. Even though I was not crazy about the feel of the G34 I am more tempted than ever in order to have a stress free season next year.

Well, like I said it would be random and confusing. I am very glad to have a forum like this to rant on and actually look forward to getting some useful advice or comments. Who would think that a single pistol could piss a person off this much?

Thanks all.

[Bill Nesbitt]

sandman, I'm sorry for your troubles. Nothing worse than a pistol that only runs part time.

My advice, to help you make a decision, is to read the posts in this section and read the posts in the section of your other possible choice. Read the posts where shooters have done minimal modifications to their guns.

I'll also send you a PM.

Good luck

Bill

[fastarget]

wow Sandman,

I can sympatize I have had issues like that and usually not in practice but in matches.

Have you tried to run the gun with stock springs, and use plain old WWB and see how it does? I know my wife's has been reliable with that and I have tested it with my reloads at IDPA power factors without any problems, other than a couple of light strikes on wolf primers only.

My suggestion is just to try and diagnose it. At least you would eliminate some factors from the equation and get it working so you can get your dream gun later. .02cnts

[cyclone336]

I feel your pain. I started USPSA/IDPA shooting less than two years ago with an M&P9. It has been the first pistol I have put a serious amount of rounds through, so I'm really not sure what to think when my pistol pukes (ex. FTE or striker breakage). Do all guns dislike competitive modifications and practices (ex. light recoil springs and dry fire), or is it just that the M&P designed to be run stock with high power defense ammo?

I agree completely with the above comments. My understanding of M&P-God Dan Burwell's opinion is that stock springs work best. (Perhaps he will elaborate on this?) I was running a 13 lb. spring for about 1500 rounds and loved the way it felt in recoil. However, it was too easy to pull out of battery and I got one light strike, so I put the stock spring back in. No problems since then.

I am also in the same boat with you with respect to not having money for a limited blaster. However, I think that my being stuck in production with one particular gun has been really beneficial to my growth as a shooter. I don't know how much money I would have wasted on parts and labor if I had some to spend. Being "poor" has really driven home the point the "it is the Indian, not the arrow". Of course that cliche is said while taking for granted that I have properly functioning equipment.

Good luck moving past these problems.

[ebg3]

I feel your pain. I had a 4 month nonstop battle with my Production gun trying to get it to run 100%. I found no help with the manufacturer so I knew I had to fix the problems myself. I can't imagine having to send it to someone to have it fixed and how long it would take. Probably would still be working on it! I can suggest to you to keep the factory recoil spring in place and replace the striker spring, maybe even the whole assembly and the striker channel liner which is the white polymer piece lining the striker channel. I would think this would fix your problems. Speed Shooter Spec. should have the parts you need. Feel free to PM me if you want. Hope this helps,

Eddie

[TG9Pro]

For every action there is a reaction, particularly pertaining to fine-tuning machines which have movements of suspension (springs), and DIY activity. Write it all down in a sensical manner/order, results from those, and start your eval. from there. It sounds like your variables have gotten mixed up into a frustration which usually ends in a cheap sale.

My Pro is stock using WWB 115s or 124s, but I occasionaly feed it what's on sale too. Accuracy is awesome, definitely not sluggish at all, with just 1 light strike so far in about 1000 rounds. ? If the Glocks are calling then return their call. I do believe Burwell is the best outside of the S&W PC, if you need a hopped up weapon. It's always perplexing to hear about troublesome M&Ps as my 3 have been relatively flawless, and my 1076s are like tanks under Patton's command.

Keep us up on your results?

[Sarge]

Bought a G34. Will most likely dump the PRO later on.

[lugnut]

In my experience there are two things that cause most shooters "gun" problems:

Home made ammo

Modified gun issues

I'm not saying that there is nothing wrong with your gun... just what I've observed.

That being said- the G34 is one of the most reliable guns I've used/seen. It will accomodate most ammo, shooters. I use a G34 almost exclusively. Three things that are most important to shooting competition in order IMO and you can't compete successfully with out all three.

1) Shooters skill

2) Gun/ammo reliability

3) Gun performance/accuracy

[fastarget]

In my experience there are two things that cause most shooters "gun" problems:

Home made ammo

Modified gun issues

I'm not saying that there is nothing wrong with your gun... just what I've observed.

That being said- the G34 is one of the most reliable guns I've used/seen. It will accomodate most ammo, shooters. I use a G34 almost exclusively. Three things that are most important to shooting competition in order IMO and you can't compete successfully with out all three.

1) Shooters skill

2) Gun/ammo reliability

3) Gun performance/accuracy

Well said, +1

[Sarge]

Good points. If you look back on some of my posts on the gun in question you will see that I have tried pretty hard to accommodate it. I know it could probably be made right with even more testing, guessing, sending it away, loading 100 rounds at a time because you are afraid it will not run. Basically for me it has become a confidence issue. Once you lose confidence in a piece of equipment it becomes hard to focus on anything else. I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with the gun either. I shoot with guys who use one and they have very few problems as long as they run factory ammo. But since that is not the norm for most of us it kind of becomes a moot point.

On the other hand I ignored quite a few people's advice when I did not buy a Glock originally. So now I can get one and see what I have been missing.

In my experience there are two things that cause most shooters "gun" problems:

Home made ammo

Modified gun issues

I'm not saying that there is nothing wrong with your gun... just what I've observed.

That being said- the G34 is one of the most reliable guns I've used/seen. It will accomodate most ammo, shooters. I use a G34 almost exclusively. Three things that are most important to shooting competition in order IMO and you can't compete successfully with out all three.

1) Shooters skill

2) Gun/ammo reliability

3) Gun performance/accuracy

[BritinUSA]

I've seen guns act sluggish and it was usually an issue with lubrication, can I ask what oil are you using and what parts of the frame/slide/guide rod are getting lubed and how often?

Edited December 16, 2009 by BritinUSA

[Sarge]

Amsoil synthetic some times. Break Free CLP other times. I oil the parts recommended by the manufacturer. I clean the gun almost every time I shoot it. I remove the striker and clean the channel often.

[dcbfluff]

Sandman-

I feel bad for you: the equipment situation you describe has got to have a negative impact on your mental game (and something that you do for fun should not be this irritating). I think you have gotten excellent advice so far, and can only add that I have had similar problems when tweaking loads, changing bullets, oal or whatever. It always seemed to come back to me and the bullets I built, not the gun. I don't have an M&P, or any real opinion one way or the other about them, but believe that there are far more variables (points of failure) in the reloading process than in the manufactured firearm itself.

It would be a real crusher if you were to switch guns and find similar problems due to ammo issues.

Whatever you choose to do, I hope you are able to get up and running (reliably) soon.

[Sarge]

Yeah, I have thought about that too. Time will tell I guess. I have had other shooters shoot my ammo through their guns after steel matches, etc. with never a problem. I think the gun is pretty finicky probably. You are right about fun not being aggravating. That sucks. I'll turn my loads up and give it a run next week but by then my PF will be pushing 140.

Edited December 17, 2009 by sandman

[Sarge]

As an afterthought, it is a great opportunity to get a new rig. This way I can prove things once and for all with side by side comparisons.

[CocoBolo]

As an afterthought, it is a great opportunity to get a new rig. This way I can prove things once and for all with side by side comparisons.

Top - It is a tough game we play. Ammo is the evil most of the time but then gun problems do come around once in a while, and they are fustrating. I use a fairly simple rule, if it ain't broke don't fix it. So if I am happy with the feel of the gun with the stock spring why would I change it. Now if the slide is slamming shut so hard I'm gut shootin the target on the second hit then maybe I should look at a lighter spring. If you are over running the gun with Iron sights then the targets are too close, or you are not taking the time you need to see what your need to see. Work on navigating the stage more efficiently thats a huge part of the game, most folks already shoot fast enough. Dry fire and Practice improves your game faster than any magic oil. If your not hitting better than 85% A's slow down.

A lighter bullet will cycle the gun faster at the same pf. I shoot 9mm in my SVI/Infinity with 125gr and run a 7# spring but not all guns are created equal, i have to run a 11# in my CZ and Sig.

Thinking new gun. Does the gun fit you? Does it point to your natural point of Aim? Those are the first two questions in evalutating a new gun after that it starts to get complicated.

[Chris Keen]

Kevin I started shooting Production with 147gr bullets too, and after a year or so realized that though they may "feel" very mild, they also run a little bit slower than a 115 or 124gr bullet. Which explains the "sluggish-ness" that your friend noticed. I dont think thats a symptom of the gun itself. Like mentioned above, maybe try some 115 factory ammo through your gun.

But with that said I finally got to the point you are at now, when I was tinkering around with a Glock Open gun. I lost confidence in it's ability to run 100% and bit the bullet and built an STI open gun. But I'm not bashing Glocks, as while I waited for the Open gun to be built, I shot a G17 in Prod. for about a year.

Glocks are great guns, but they too can give you nothing but headaches & grief if you tinker with them. Just ask Micah.

Oh and as for how far do you bump up your loads (to increase reliability) before giving up the advantage of a soft shooting load? I refer you back to the list that Lugnut posted up above, but I would re-arrange the order of the list a little ........

1) Gun/ammo reliability

2) Shooters skill

3) Gun performance/accuracy

You will never do any good, or gain confidence in yourself or your eqpt. if your gun/ammo dont work right.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Chris Keen

[B_Seehawer]

I too had some issues with my Pro, pretty much taken care of them one at a time. Had one FTE in the first 100 rounds, went home and polished the chamber and feed ramp. Someone here also suggested that they give the extractor a drop of oil (I use a drop of Hoppe's #9) before each shooting session. Works, thank you to whoever that was.

Broke a striker and borrowed the one out of my brother in law's .40. The 2 strikers are a bit different and had tons of light strikes. Got the new assembly from S&W and those problems went away.

Now that the gun is reliable and clean, it is now my house gun and I went back to my Glocks for competition. I just don't think that the M&P is up to the challenge.

Just sucks to leave a $700 gun sitting around.

Brad

[Sarge]

Hey everybody, thanks for the posts. I guess I could try some different bullets. But this gun was extremely inaccurate with 124's. Granted, I only tried MG 124's but none the less..... I went with MG 147's and they were much more accurate than I am capable of. My scores actually went up. I just had to stoke those babies because they were very very slow in my gun compared to others guns. I was running 3.9-4.0 Solo1000 @1.13 and only getting about 133 out of them. Now I am loading 3.6 @1.11 and getting 136 with Precision moly's so it seems to me they should run. But as I said I am not a gunsmith so who knows.

Also a lot of comments are made regarding tinkering with the gun. The only thing I have ever done to the gun is run a 13# recoil spring in it. That is not a whole lot of tinkering in my opinion.

Hell, I don't know if I am shooting 85% A's but I am hitting quite a few. As for slowing down. That is the funny/aggravating part. I shot steel with the gun two days before at plates right in front of me. I was shooting much faster that day and the gun was perfect. I was so happy to have figured things out and then it just died on me. When I see the sights line up I shoot. I don't know how happy I will be wondering if I should wait for the gun. I know that is a stretch but you know what I mean.

I ran this same gun and load @ the Ohio match and don't think I had a single problem all day. Baffling....

[lugnut]

Kevin- you've posted a lot of info, so I can't say for sure what you might be experiencing. Not all guns works great, some work like crap until you get just the right set up and they are good forever. I load all my 147s to at least 1.130-1.150 and use aPF over 130 always. No gun should fire out of battery and if your M&P is it's bad- period.

Without getting into a whole myriad of possibilities- I'd suggest if you have the cash to get a Glock. If you can- borrow one first. I too lost confidence in a S&W 1911 a few years back. I now know almost 99.9% for certain what my/the gun's problems were now but didn't at the time. I lost confidence and ditched it. To me it didn't matter why... it was just hurting my shooting. Change is often good....

[kgunz11]

Kevin, why don't you send me that gun to look over. Anything and everything I do to it will be free of charge.

[JimmyZip]

Sandman,

I was having some strange behavior out of my pistol recently. (CZ TS) It seemed sluggish at random times. I thought WTF because I could see it enough that I thought several were squibs. I think it was my powder which is the same as yours. Now I tap the powder measure after every cycle. I think that the Solo can meter inconsistently at times. I did get some light powder drops when I checked after the sluggish behavior at practice. Just throwing it out there as it is the same powder, and similar gun behavior. (Slide cyclying really slow, or not quite picking up next round/ejecting empty.) The tap seems to settle the powder consistently enough that if I measure 20 in a row, they will all be within .1 of a grain. I haven't had the same issues since. I did shorten my OAL too, but that is a different story.

JZ

[JThompson]

I'd look real hard for high primers... From the issues you are having it would be my first thought.

[steel1212]

When I first got into limited I got a para limited .40. Thing just would not run a match. Finally got it to running and sold it. I'm not telling you to sell your MP but if you can't get it to run right you can't perform up to your potential waiting on it to screw up. Like Chris said, gun/ammo first, or the other parts can't evolve.

[Chris Keen]

I'd look real hard for high primers... From the issues you are having it would be my first thought.

Done that already .... they all look fine.