Procedural Penalty

[ebg3]

I'm MD at my local club and we host a pistol match every month. We follow all USPSA rules at our pistol and multi-gun matches. We use PVC framed tarp walls as vision barriers and they have worked very well except, they are not bullet proof. Lately, we are having 5-6 walls shot and in need of repair at every match. In setting up the stages, I leave plenty of room for shots to be taken without shooting a wall. The shooters are cutting corners or shooting above their abilities and hitting the walls. I guess bottom line, it is my responsibility to keep the walls from being shot. I know I can put noshoots everywhere and maybe avoid some wall destruction but that adds work to setup and uses lots of targets. So my question is, at a Level I match, can I give a procedural or two to a shooter that hits a wall? I know a DQ is way too harsh but I think a few -10's might make the shooters a little more aware of what they are doing. Thoughts?

EG

[FranDoc]

Well ... officially nothing in the rule book (Chapter 10, Sections 10.1 & 10.2 inclusive address Procedural Penalties) to support this.

However, as someone who builds stages & props, I certainly sympathize with the situation.

Edit to previous: The only mention of a "Level 1 stipulation" for procedural penalties is in 10.2.9, which involves prohibiting certain movements between shooting positions. Level 1 matches can specify some shooting positions and movement. There's no provision for "local penalties". I'd previously suggested putting something in the WSB about not shooting the walls but, on review, the rules don't support that (as much as your extra effort, expense and match staff sanity may make that seem attractive!).

[see subsequent post, below]

Edited December 5, 2009 by FranDoc

[ebg3]

Thanks for the feedback. You're right on the money about keeping the MD sane! I'll run some thoughts by our SC and some other MDs in the area.

EG

[George Jones]

There is no such thing as a "local rule". Assuming you are advertising your match as a "USPSA match" (meaning you are an affiliated club and have therefore signed to abide by the rulebook) you do not have the latitude to do as you are thinking. 10.1.1 and 10.1.2 are not there for you to penalize something which "you don't like".

There is only one possible rule which someone might try to apply.....

10.4.1 A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe.

Using that rule would apply a DQ. However, I would suggest that using that rule to try to prevent your props from being shot is NOT what the rule covers since it applies to unsafe directions, not "inconvenient" directions. Your SC and your AD should be telling you the same thing.

A procedural penalty is not authorized by the rules and is not the solution. I think you should be informing your shooters of the consequences of their early shots. If your problem is so severe, then perhaps you should be asking the shooters most often responsible to help you repair your props.

[lugnut]

Our club tends to use a lot of no shoots. When I first started USPSA I was dumbfounded as to all the no shoots in places where they really didn't interfere with the shoot targets... I figured out why in short time. Unless you have a lot of really bad shooters- you should be able to reuse the targets.

Edited December 5, 2009 by lugnut

[FranDoc]

10.4: Match DQ for an AD (DQ, which is why I didn't mention it in my first post). I'd hope you're not getting 5-6 AD's per match!

Meant to include this in the earlier post: another thing is to be exquisitely careful with the stage design. If you're getting 5 or 6 holes in the walls each match, is this a problem with one (or two) shooters being careless, or is there an issue with stage design?

If it's individual carelessness, address it with the individual(s) responsible. [Yes, may be easier said than done; I'm aware of politics and personalities. If this is a safety matter, that can't be tolerated from anybody.]

Really look at the stage design. Something that may be "plenty of room" for a >6' tall, 20 yr old, Open shooter may not be so sufficient for a mildly overweight middle-ager with iron sights. Is there something common to all the scenarios where the wall hits are occurring -- where are the fault lines, where are the targets in relation to the walls, what kind of angles do the shots require, how much lean/reach, is the range surface too slippery or unstable? Is there something from the design standpoint that can be done to prevent the holes from happening, but still make the match reasonably challenging for everyone?

Five to six wall hits every match seems like a lot. Pinning down the exact cause may point you to the simplest and most cost-effective solution.

[ChuckS]

You could have a special "award" where the shooter who hits the walls wins the privilege to buy beer for the match staff!

[Flexmoney]

I've never used the PVC/tarp walls. Must be a pain to hang NoShoots on them?

[ebg3]

I've never used the PVC/tarp walls. Must be a pain to hang NoShoots on them?

It is, either have to use tape or place a target stand with no shoot near wall.

[ebg3]

Hits are not from AD's. I really did not like the idea of a penalty for hitting the wall, I'll just have to use no-shoots.

[Gwhiz]

What about a special local penalty where the shooter is required to repair any damage done by thier bullets? Only seems fair.

[Joe4d]

seaming fair or convenience isnt relevant, there are no local rules in USPSA, you'll have to use no shoots.

If the shooters arnt firing make up shots full diameter hits in the props would count as misses on the targets.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Joe4d

[Jack T]

Remember if it is downrange, it will be destroyed.

You are putting a match on for the shooters, the shooters come first, that is what this sport should be about. Not to sound harsh, but it isn't about making life easy for you. You set the match up for them not for you.

The problem is your props, not the shooters. Rebuild them out of wood and use snow fencing (orange crap). This is pretty cost effective.

PVC is easy to put together but there will not be any longevity to it if it is in the field of fire.

Take a hard look at your set up as mentioned. You CAN set it up where they won't get shot.

But, please, the matches are for the enjoyment of the shooters, keep it fun for them.

Jack

[Flexmoney]

I've never used the PVC/tarp walls. Must be a pain to hang NoShoots on them?

It is, either have to use tape or place a target stand with no shoot near wall.

Might try some giant paper clips/clamps? maybe you can get them on the tarps that way?

[VegasOPM]

Spray paint the tarp white. Now it is a no-shoot. We have a permanently built house on our range that we painted white inside and out. ANY hit on the house is treated exactly like a no shoot popper or piece of steel. There is no perforation and the hit gets painted during taping.

Jack,

While I agree that the match is for the shooters, creating undue stress on the match staff is not helping the shooters either. No MD= no match. In my case I agreed to become MD because nobody else would and the matches were going to be suspended otherwise. Not a great thing for the shooters. I too feel the pain of building props on my own time and setting up stages only to have my props shot to pieces and the stages being criticized by folks that don't lift a finger to help.

[scirocco38s]

Remember if it is downrange, it will be destroyed.

You are putting a match on for the shooters, the shooters come first, that is what this sport should be about. Not to sound harsh, but it isn't about making life easy for you. You set the match up for them not for you.

The problem is your props, not the shooters. Rebuild them out of wood and use snow fencing (orange crap). This is pretty cost effective.

PVC is easy to put together but there will not be any longevity to it if it is in the field of fire.

Take a hard look at your set up as mentioned. You CAN set it up where they won't get shot.

But, please, the matches are for the enjoyment of the shooters, keep it fun for them.

Jack

I know this match director and he does setup the match for the shooters. Your flippant remark isnt neccessary either. We all use theses types of walls as they are easy to carry and setup. There are no trip hazards and they allow more ways to setup stages than other designs. Wood walls with snow fence are still heavy. If you setup matches as we do witch is 5 to 7 stages 120-180 rounds and work 4 to 6 hours the day before you would understand.

And you havent seen these shooters,... I have and the problem is the shooters. They dont have the skill or the height sometimes to make the shot but because they saw another higher ability shooter do it they think they can. The MD knows how to setup stages as he and I both regularly travel to large matches every year, yes we can set it where they wont get shot but then it isnt a high quality match. I use these same wall system and it works well most of the time, It is almost always the same shooters that do this at his club, and it is also the same guy that shoots mine. I just look at it as the cost of business but he doesnt have the setup help that I do, so it is more strain on him.

[ebg3]

Thanks to everyone that replied...I will consider all ideas.

Mods please close this thread. Thanks.

[Alan Adamson]

Thanks to everyone that replied...I will consider all ideas.

Mods please close this thread. Thanks.

Maybe I can sneek one comment it... I believe it's perfectly within the rules and within the Stage Brief to stipulate that your walls are hard cover, as a result, any shot that goes thur the wall, didn't penetrate and as such the associated hole in any target would not be there - it would be a mike.

Someone mentioned it prior, but it seemed to get glossed over. It's the same as stipulating that a flexible wall that may not go from top of ceiling to bottom of floor (in an indoor range for example) "covers those extents" and is usuall specified in the stage brief.

While it doesn't prevent the wall from being shot, and it does put a scoring burden on whoever is RO, it does have the effect of offering a -10 penalty for a wall strike that isn't made up with a clean shot.

Alan

Edited December 6, 2009 by Alan Adamson

[wide45]

Spray paint the tarp white. Now it is a no-shoot. We have a permanently built house on our range that we painted white inside and out. ANY hit on the house is treated exactly like a no shoot popper or piece of steel. There is no perforation and the hit gets painted during taping....

Not legal for a USPSA match.

[wide45]

Thanks to everyone that replied...I will consider all ideas.

Mods please close this thread. Thanks.

Maybe I can sneek one comment it... I believe it's perfectly within the rules and within the Stage Brief to stipulate that your walls are hard cover, as a result, any shot that goes thur the wall, didn't penetrate and as such the associated hole in any target would not be there - it would be a mike.

Someone mentioned it prior, but it seemed to get glossed over. It's the same as stipulating that a flexible wall that may not go from top of ceiling to bottom of floor (in an indoor range for example) "covers those extents" and is usuall specified in the stage brief.

While it doesn't prevent the wall from being shot, and it does put a scoring burden on whoever is RO, it does have the effect of offering a -10 penalty for a wall strike that isn't made up with a clean shot.

Alan

All walls and props are hard cover. It's automatic. Soft cover must be called out in the walk thru.

[Alan Adamson]

All walls and props are hard cover. It's automatic. Soft cover must be called out in the walk thru.

There ya go... I kinda figured that after I wrote my first version... the simple answer, with all the caveats.

Alan

[VegasOPM]

Spray paint the tarp white. Now it is a no-shoot. We have a permanently built house on our range that we painted white inside and out. ANY hit on the house is treated exactly like a no shoot popper or piece of steel. There is no perforation and the hit gets painted during taping....

Not legal for a USPSA match.

If it is stated as such in the WSB, why would it not be legal?

[mactiger]

Spray paint the tarp white. Now it is a no-shoot. We have a permanently built house on our range that we painted white inside and out. ANY hit on the house is treated exactly like a no shoot popper or piece of steel. There is no perforation and the hit gets painted during taping....

Not legal for a USPSA match.

If it is stated as such in the WSB, why would it not be legal?

Because you are making it up. No shoots are no-shoots. Walls are automatically hard cover, but just because you paint them white doesn't mean they are no-shoot walls. Remember: just because the cat had kittens in the oven don't mean we call them biscuits.

If you don't want a bullet hole in it, don't put it downrange. Or, where I live, don't hang it up as a street sign. :-)

Troy

[kgunz11]

Thanks to everyone that replied...I will consider all ideas.

Mods please close this thread. Thanks.

Maybe I can sneek one comment it... I believe it's perfectly within the rules and within the Stage Brief to stipulate that your walls are hard cover, as a result, any shot that goes thur the wall, didn't penetrate and as such the associated hole in any target would not be there - it would be a mike.

Someone mentioned it prior, but it seemed to get glossed over. It's the same as stipulating that a flexible wall that may not go from top of ceiling to bottom of floor (in an indoor range for example) "covers those extents" and is usuall specified in the stage brief.

While it doesn't prevent the wall from being shot, and it does put a scoring burden on whoever is RO, it does have the effect of offering a -10 penalty for a wall strike that isn't made up with a clean shot.

Alan

All walls and props are hard cover. It's automatic. Soft cover must be called out in the walk thru.

I thought barrels were soft cover by default unless otherwise specified?

[mactiger]

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.4.2) in the

written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and

other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”: