Procedural Penalty

[kgunz11]

OK so it's hard cover unless otherwise specified. Thanks!

[JThompson]

EDIT for being slow...

Edited December 6, 2009 by JThompson

[Joe4d]

Spray paint the tarp white. Now it is a no-shoot. We have a permanently built house on our range that we painted white inside and out. ANY hit on the house is treated exactly like a no shoot popper or piece of steel. There is no perforation and the hit gets painted during taping....

Not legal for a USPSA match.

If it is stated as such in the WSB, why would it not be legal?

4.1.1 Only targets listed in appendix B are to be used for USPSA Handgun matches.

The only exception made for No shoots can be found in

4.1.3.

... Metal No shoots in the general size and shape of authorized paper targets may be used. Metal No shoots do not have a non scoring border.

A wall or a building is not an authorized target.

[ebg3]

OK, I got an official ruling on this. If it's not a 10.4.6 infraction, no penalties for shooting a wall. I will solve this problem by using properly placed no shoots. Thanks for everyone's input.

EG

[CHA-LEE]

Why not make a addition club/range rule to state that if you shoot a wall you pay $5 per hit. If your shooters can't repect the props by not shooting them then they can at least pay to have them repaired/replaced.

[ima45dv8]

See post #4.

[Nik Habicht]

Why not make a addition club/range rule to state that if you shoot a wall you pay $5 per hit. If your shooters can't repect the props by not shooting them then they can at least pay to have them repaired/replaced.

1. It's against the rules --- if you're running a USPSA match

2. Anything downrange is a consumable -- i.e. it's either designed to get shot, or it will get shot due to the nature of the sport, specifically the "as and when visible" part....

3. You can mitigate that to some extent with careful placement of penalty targets -- we often do this with newer walls. We also try to place older walls in places where they might catch bullets. When they get too shot up, we trim them down in size. (We are using stockade fence --- so it's pretty easy to trim...)

4. Given that anything downrange likely will get shot, clubs need to figure equipment replacement into their budget and adjust entry fees accordingly.....

[FranDoc]

4. Given that anything downrange likely will get shot, clubs need to figure equipment replacement into their budget and adjust entry fees accordingly.....

A thought ... and Nik is a step ahead of me on this one ....

The range is entirely in charge of the match fee. Some ranges offer discounted fees for staff, juniors, ladies, active duty LE/Mil, etc. Some ranges hold charity benefit matches with higher-than-usual fees. There is no stipulation that the match fee has to be the same for everybody, all the time.

If there is/are one or just a few individuals responsible for the bulk of the damage, and depending upon local politics, you may be able to recoup some of the materiel costs in a "special match fee" assessed to those responsible the next time they come to shoot. Be careful, this can have PR repercussions. Make sure you have support from the range leadership before imposing this. Note that this would help with materiel costs only, there's no compensation for the prop builder's time, effort, aggravation ....

This would be a "match participation fee" not a local rule about a penalty. It might get the attention of those who are shooting the walls, without raising the fee for the rest of the folks who can manage not to shoot them. Certainly anything downrange can get hit, and "stuff happens" -- we've all nicked a wall. But what you've described (if I understand correctly) is willful/careless, not the occasional off-target hit, not an AD, not gun malfunction.

Just a suggestion. If those who are better versed in the fine points of the rules than I (Nik, George) can see a problem with this, please speak up.

[moverfive]

To expand on what folks have already said.....

IF you have the ability/time to idiot-check stages during setup - in conjunction with looking for shoot-through's or other potential issues, look for ways in which props can be shot. And those "ways" may not be the smartest way to shoot the stage - when I spot some issues, folks will typically, "nobody is going to shoot the stage that way." You know, maybe they will and maybe they won't. But in case some folks do, do you want your props shot? In 99% of the cases, moving either a fault line or target(s) itself just a little bit will usually solve the problem.

Point being - if we were not looking from a 'shoot the prop' perspective, we would not have seen those issues and probably would have a lot more damage to props.

[Nik Habicht]

4. Given that anything downrange likely will get shot, clubs need to figure equipment replacement into their budget and adjust entry fees accordingly.....

There is no stipulation that the match fee has to be the same for everybody, all the time.

If there is/are one or just a few individuals responsible for the bulk of the damage, and depending upon local politics, you may be able to recoup some of the materiel costs in a "special match fee" assessed to those responsible the next time they come to shoot.

Just a suggestion. If those who are better versed in the fine points of the rules than I (Nik, George) can see a problem with this, please speak up.

Nothing kills a match faster than arbitrary decisions --- and this smacks of that. Want to avoid having props shot? Don't put them downrange --- we're back to four boxes on the ground and "Shoot T1-T4 from Box A, then move to Box B and shoot...."

I don't think anyone wants to throw freestyle out the window. Freestyle does mean that targets can be shot on an "As and when visible" basis. That means that shooters may not always need to run up to a port --- the farther away they are, the higher the likelihood of hitting a wall....

It's part of the game. How do we treat target sticks? As consumables, right? Walls, doors, barricades, etc. aren't way different....

Some of this you can limit in stage design --- some of it you have to accept as wear and tear....

I'll happily pay a couple of dollars more to a club that puts on good, freestyle stages --- so that they can buy a few walls every year....

[ManNamedJed]

Couldn't shooting a wall be called a 'forbidden act' in the stage description and have a penalty associated with it?

[Jack T]

4. Given that anything downrange likely will get shot, clubs need to figure equipment replacement into their budget and adjust entry fees accordingly.....

There is no stipulation that the match fee has to be the same for everybody, all the time.

If there is/are one or just a few individuals responsible for the bulk of the damage, and depending upon local politics, you may be able to recoup some of the materiel costs in a "special match fee" assessed to those responsible the next time they come to shoot.

Just a suggestion. If those who are better versed in the fine points of the rules than I (Nik, George) can see a problem with this, please speak up.

Nothing kills a match faster than arbitrary decisions --- and this smacks of that. Want to avoid having props shot? Don't put them downrange --- we're back to four boxes on the ground and "Shoot T1-T4 from Box A, then move to Box B and shoot...."

I don't think anyone wants to throw freestyle out the window. Freestyle does mean that targets can be shot on an "As and when visible" basis. That means that shooters may not always need to run up to a port --- the farther away they are, the higher the likelihood of hitting a wall....

It's part of the game. How do we treat target sticks? As consumables, right? Walls, doors, barricades, etc. aren't way different....

Some of this you can limit in stage design --- some of it you have to accept as wear and tear....

I'll happily pay a couple of dollars more to a club that puts on good, freestyle stages --- so that they can buy a few walls every year....

Well put!!

[wide45]

Couldn't shooting a wall be called a 'forbidden act' in the stage description and have a penalty associated with it?

No

Reread all of 2.3.1.1

Shooting a wall has nothing to do with competitive advantage, or safety.

[Flexmoney]

No, no, no, no...and no.

As has been said, you aren't going to legislate away the walls getting shot.

To all the stage designers and match organizers out there...whenever you catch yourself (or somebody else) talking about stuff like this, remember that the best of the best always consider this a stage design issue.

Don't ever start blaming the shooters. Put the thinking cap on and figure out a better way. (Part of that may be coming here and sharing your design. There are lots of experienced eyeballs around that can help.

In this case, the club may need to start building some walls that will hold NS (if they can't find a way to get NS onto the existing walls)...or quit putting the walls so far down range...add in barrels...whatever it takes.

[ebg3]

For the most part it is the stage designer's responsibility to place walls and props so they won't get shot. The problem I have is the small part that is the shooter's responsibility not to shoot the walls or props. I know accidents happen, I have been doing this a long time, but it seems to me the shooter should know where his/her bullets are going when they pull the trigger. A little help by the shooters will really make my life easier. And before someone attacks me for that statement, let me say that I volunteered to be MD and that I take time off work to set the match up on the Friday before(5-7hours) and that on the day of the match I put up targets, ensure the stages look OK, and help score every match. Fortunately a few other club members do help ease the pain every month. The only reason we do all of this is to put on a good match FOR THE SHOOTERS. I accept the responsibility of doing all this and will continue doing it, I was just hoping for a simple solution to a fairly minor problem. Originally I hoped a penalty could be given for shooting a wall, but now I know the only way to keep the walls safe is to get them out of the line of fire by using no shoots and by better placement. I don't think much more can be said about this topic. Mods, feel free to close this thread.

Thanks,

Eddie

Edited December 11, 2009 by ebg3

[EricBudd]

Remember if it is downrange, it will be destroyed.

You are putting a match on for the shooters, the shooters come first, that is what this sport should be about. Not to sound harsh, but it isn't about making life easy for you. You set the match up for them not for you.

The problem is your props, not the shooters. Rebuild them out of wood and use snow fencing (orange crap). This is pretty cost effective.

PVC is easy to put together but there will not be any longevity to it if it is in the field of fire.

Take a hard look at your set up as mentioned. You CAN set it up where they won't get shot.

But, please, the matches are for the enjoyment of the shooters, keep it fun for them.

Jack

Matches may be for the shooters, but if they become to much of a PITA for the staff there won't be any matches to shoot. There needs to be a balance. This is a volunteer sport, and sometimes - at the end of the day when the match is finally put away - you ask yourself if is really worth the effort.

Eric

[Flexmoney]

True...very true.

On the flip side...when we don't get the help and cooperation we'd like...we need to ask ourselves "why"?

[Shootingirons45]

True...very true.

On the flip side...when we don't get the help and cooperation we'd like...we need to ask ourselves "why"?

I built most of the walls we use at our club so I have a little input here. I also repair the walls that get shot and I know, better than most, how frustrating it is. At our match we've learned to try and make it so that the shooters don't have the option of shooting our walls yet, they do get shot. Most are shot, from what I've seen, by folks trying to squeeze the bullet between the walls while moving towards the opening. Some are shot by newbies trying to follow the lead of the more experienced shooters.

The VERY first match that we used these walls I saw a shooter on my squad nail the PVC support that we'd placed a NS in front of!! Did I cuss, hell yes. Was there anything we could do? Nope. I do know that I've seen the shooter get the score for the target behind the prop. There we do have a opportunity for improvement. We can educate the RO's to call a Mike on any hit on the target that first passes thru the wall.

As far as not getting the help needed all I know to say is this. It's hard to get folks to burn a vacation day on set up..Me, I used over 2 weeks of vacation last year and to be candid it gets old being one a few that take that personal loss. Is there anything we can do? Doubtful.

[wide45]

Most are shot, from what I've seen, by folks trying to squeeze the bullet between the walls while moving towards the opening. Some are shot by newbies trying to follow the lead of the more experienced shooters.

So next time you set up your stages, identify the spots where this is likely to occur, and put a no-shoot on the relevant target. Make them aim at the target, or eat a penalty. Give them a reason to avoid flinging rounds in the direction of the target.