Is Negative self talk really a Negative thing?

[juan]

I have read these books my self. Praising good performance and letting go of bad performance.

but this does not work good with my dog.Praise when done right insant correction when done wrong.

[benos]

I try my best to do this as well. But doing this keeps me thinking about the "Negative" stuff so I can come up with the list of things to work on the next time I shoot.

Think technically as opposed to negatively.

be

[j1b]

I have read these books my self. Praising good performance and letting go of bad performance.

but this does not work good with my dog.Praise when done right insant correction when done wrong.

This is more where I was going with my original post.

I think it more accurately describes my thought process. Celebrate where deserved. Identify immediately what needs fixed. If it's a "I should know better than that" issue then it is deserving of scrutiny. If it is a "man, I really need to get better at that" then it goes on the docket to practice and improve.

How the self talk goes is certainly dependent upon the situation. I never go through the "I'm an idiot" discussion. I often times go through the "why don't I just do what I know how to do" discussion. And if I do make a bone headed mistake then in general it's a discussion with myself that circles around lack of focus and insuring I understand that nothing can be taken for granted.

[mda]

This is where it would be very interesting to see what the mental motivation process is for the top shooters.

Well, there is such a person and has been a an Olympic shooting coach for the past +25 years teaching this very topic. He tells you how he ran his mental motivation process and this is what he teaches to all his athletes.

Lanny Basham - With Winning in Mind.

Past Olympic and World Champion.

MDA

[j1b]

This is where it would be very interesting to see what the mental motivation process is for the top shooters.

Well, there is such a person and has been a an Olympic shooting coach for the past +25 years teaching this very topic. He tells you how he ran his mental motivation process and this is what he teaches to all his athletes.

Lanny Basham - With Winning in Mind.

Past Olympic and World Champion.

MDA

Here is the challenge I have with this idea. Is it our belief that they are all the same?

Does Michael Jordan think the same way Kolbe Bryant does? Or did when Michael was in the game? Does Sydney Crosby think and contemplate the game the same as Wayne Gretzky did?

Can we say that Rob, Jerry and Todd approached the game the same way? That their mental thought process was the same? That their nerves were the same? That their comfort zone was the same?

Is it interesting that President Reagan was vastly different than President Clinton (outside of politics), or either President Bush?

I don't personally believe that there is a clear path to success in sport or life.

What I do believe is that the path to success has been paved by a multitude of various leaders. Each with their own style, their own path. And my own trick is to understand who I best relate to. Then to realize the subtle differences that exist between my path and theirs. The final step being to blaze my own path that is a combination of both the learnings I've gotten from others and the learnings I have of my own.

Jack

[Duane Thomas]

The problems I had with Bassham's With Winning in Mind were two-fold: (1) It's really basic stuff, I've read it all before, and what he has to say is not nearly as groundbreaking or insightful as he obviously thinks it is, (2) he really does seem to believe there's one best way to do anything. The quote that sticks in my mind goes something along the lines of "If you do everything different than everyone else and you're world champion, that's called innovative. If you do everything different than everyone else and you're not world champion, that's called delusion." He does kind of miss the point that the world champion doing everything differently than everyone else didn't start out a world champion. To begin with, he was the guy doing everyone differently than the world champion, yes?

People are not carbon copies, either mentally or physically. A mental approach that works great for one person, with a very specific sort of mind, will probably not work very well at all for someone with a very different sort of mind. But we know all this, or should: personality theory is not exactly a new science.

[Flexmoney]

This is where it would be very interesting to see what the mental motivation process is for the top shooters.

Well, there is such a person and has been a an Olympic shooting coach for the past +25 years teaching this very topic. He tells you how he ran his mental motivation process and this is what he teaches to all his athletes.

Lanny Basham - With Winning in Mind.

Past Olympic and World Champion.

MDA

Here is the challenge I have with this idea. Is it our belief that they are all the same?

Lanny Bassham covers that...as he went around and talked with many a Gold Medal winner.

[Nik Habicht]

I try my best to do this as well. But doing this keeps me thinking about the "Negative" stuff so I can come up with the list of things to work on the next time I shoot.

I don't mind doing this. This is how I learn. The main reason why I started this thread is that most of the performance books you read try to put you into a mental state where you think you can do no wrong, or you have already won. That isn't a valid thought process for me because if I thought that I was the best and already won, I wouldn’t be motivated to get any better. I wouldn’t think that there would be any bad stuff to work on.

Look hard at the word Negative and the words Bad Stuff in the above paragraphs. Here's your homework for the next match:

Come home with a critical assessment of your performance --- both the things that went well, and the things that you think you could improve on. Give yourself credit for the things that went well, resolve to polish those skills in practice. Give yourself credit for identifying the things that didn't go well, plan to dedicate some practice time to work on them.

When you go to practice --- try to ignore what you want. Focus on being aware of everything that's taking place as you practice. It may take a few runs to quiet the mind, and to jettison desire. See what happens....

I've been playing a Mah-Jongg game on my wife's Nintendo DS. It involves clearing a board of tiles against a clock. When I started it would take a minute to play a game. Now that I've been playing obsessively for a month and a half, I find that it's pretty easy to finish in 22-25 seconds; 20 or 21 takes a higher state of relaxation and keeping the eyes moving across the board. Breaking below 20 seconds requires a complete unawareness of the clock --- the thing I've noticed in the middle of 18 or 19 second games is just how smoothly the tiles are clearing out. Carol's had a couple of 17 second games, I intend to beat her with a 16. I'm working to try to create that state where I notice everything on the board in real time, but am totally unaware of and unconcerned with the time. It's harder than you might think.....

This is where it would be very interesting to see what the mental motivation process is for the top shooters. I would assume that they would have to be in a continual loop of performance judgment followed by some action to correct the issue. Even if you were the best shooter in the world, there would always be something that you would be working on to take it to the next level. Or at least I think so.

You being in this exact situation would be the best person to elaborate on this.

Depending on the personality of the shooter, it might not be what you're thinking of though --- it might not come down to perfecting the shooting game. I suspect that shooting practice at the top is more about polishing and maintaining skills than in solving major problems in technique. I'd expect the work to be more mental --- but I could be wrong, because I'm far from the top.....

[Nik Habicht]

Here is the challenge I have with this idea. Is it our belief that they are all the same?

Does Michael Jordan think the same way Kolbe Bryant does? Or did when Michael was in the game? Does Sydney Crosby think and contemplate the game the same as Wayne Gretzky did?

Can we say that Rob, Jerry and Todd approached the game the same way? That their mental thought process was the same? That their nerves were the same? That their comfort zone was the same?

Is it interesting that President Reagan was vastly different than President Clinton (outside of politics), or either President Bush?

I don't personally believe that there is a clear path to success in sport or life.

What I do believe is that the path to success has been paved by a multitude of various leaders. Each with their own style, their own path. And my own trick is to understand who I best relate to. Then to realize the subtle differences that exist between my path and theirs. The final step being to blaze my own path that is a combination of both the learnings I've gotten from others and the learnings I have of my own.

Jack

I believe that performing at a high level is akin to an art form --- it requires knowing yourself, developing techniques and strategies that work, being flexible and adaptable, being able to steal techniques and strategies from others (to use in certain situations, to evaluate, to see if in combination with your own they lead you somewhere else, to see if they can provide the impetus for a mental leap).

Creativity is required....

[Chris iliff]

Post #27 sums up my feelings on your original post. You seemed to have catagorized everything as a positive or negative. Why not just think of the different aspects of your shooting as just "different aspects of your shooting". Neither positive or negative, they just are. Now what are the ones that with a little work could take you to a new place. Sometimes, I think that all the this or that, and wills and wont's, are just distractions that we use to give us something to do. Get out of your head, respectfully. You seem to have too many minds on this.

[Sam]

Yes, post #27 grasps the challenge!

We are free to choose our state of mind in every situation, throughout our entire lives. Labeling something as "negative" has never seemed to help me, but then I'm not a national champion. If I had to "go negative" in my thinking to become a national champion, if that was the only way I could achieve that goal, I would simply choose another goal. The path to that goal might take me off of my chosen path of counting my blessings every breath.

Many of us see our shooting as a metaphor for living. Examples abound in business, politics, and sports, of people who have chosen a path of "negatives" to reach a goal. They may have reached the desired goal, but at what cost to themselves and those around them? I recall that "never feeling satisfied" was a very sad and desperate feeling. I understand that feeling because I once chose to live my life that way.

When we choose to see "room for improvement" as a negative, I believe we are falling into a trap. Instead, I see "room for improvement" as a very positive realization. It becomes my basis for true hope. I'm not perfect! Hooray! I have achieved low self-esteem! Whether we just burned a clean El Prez in 4.4 seconds in practice, won a national title, or just hit bottom and admitted that we are addicted to methamphetamine, it's all about fully and totally accepting where we are without any illusions.

Why beat ourselves up over where we are? We are where we are, right? Is adopting a negative view or negative self-talk going to change that in any way?

As Brian mentioned, going "technical" is one choice. I like that because it doesn't brand or judge anything. Choosing to interpret things technically allows critical thinking to analyze action, for the purpose of intuitively becoming the action. As, Flex mentioned, "visualizing" the desired action, is a choice to focus our attention or intent on the action. I think visualizing works for me because it keeps my mind from trying to judge or comment while I'm shooting. I choose to let my mind comment before and after the stage, but not during.

No, CHA-LEE, I don't see a need to use negative self talk. But, that's just me.

[Dan Burwell]

Here is the challenge I have with this idea. Is it our belief that they are all the same?

Does Michael Jordan think the same way Kolbe Bryant does? Or did when Michael was in the game? Does Sydney Crosby think and contemplate the game the same as Wayne Gretzky did?

Can we say that Rob, Jerry and Todd approached the game the same way? That their mental thought process was the same? That their nerves were the same? That their comfort zone was the same?

Is it interesting that President Reagan was vastly different than President Clinton (outside of politics), or either President Bush?

I don't personally believe that there is a clear path to success in sport or life.

What I do believe is that the path to success has been paved by a multitude of various leaders. Each with their own style, their own path. And my own trick is to understand who I best relate to. Then to realize the subtle differences that exist between my path and theirs. The final step being to blaze my own path that is a combination of both the learnings I've gotten from others and the learnings I have of my own.

Jack

Funny thing you mention this, I am reading a book right now that has done just this. Psychology of Champions by JJ Barrell and D Ryback. They have interviewed 60 "super star" Athelets to find their common motivations and there differences. I haven't finished the book but half way in there are some interesting findings. Some of which go directly to this thread some "super stars" are motivated because they want to be great some are motivated because they don't want to "fail".

I personally like to take each practice and match, make the list what I did well and what "needs work" I then base my next practice session based on what my journal tells me I need to work on most.

[CHA-LEE]

Thanks for all of the feedback on this topic. It is very informative!!!

[MarkCO]

Negative talk IS detrimental, either about yourself or others. However, as others have poiunted out, critical thought SHOULD NOT be detrimental. In our PC America, most criticism is seen as a personal attack. I choose to attack and criticize ACTIONS, and I do so very well. As a child, with very strong and intelligent parents, the pressure of "performance" killed a lot of my drive and enjoyment because fear of failure was so oppressive. In my 20s, I started to ignore failure instead of use it as a learning tool. In my 30s, I concentrated on what I could control and win. Now in my 40s, I desire the harshest critical thought because I want to excel. Through that path, the goal to excel has been pervasive, but the motivation and self talk has changed. I use the words love and hate very sparingly, but I will say I love excellence and I hate average.

Having read several "performance" and "success" books, the common theme I came away for acheving true excellence is to use failure as a tool for learning, but not to let it beat you.

[benos]

Negative talk IS detrimental, either about yourself or others. However, as others have poiunted out, critical thought SHOULD NOT be detrimental. In our PC America, most criticism is seen as a personal attack. I choose to attack and criticize ACTIONS, and I do so very well. As a child, with very strong and intelligent parents, the pressure of "performance" killed a lot of my drive and enjoyment because fear of failure was so oppressive. In my 20s, I started to ignore failure instead of use it as a learning tool. In my 30s, I concentrated on what I could control and win. Now in my 40s, I desire the harshest critical thought because I want to excel. Through that path, the goal to excel has been pervasive, but the motivation and self talk has changed. I use the words love and hate very sparingly, but I will say I love excellence and I hate average.

Having read several "performance" and "success" books, the common theme I came away for acheving true excellence is to use failure as a tool for learning, but not to let it beat you.

Your post reminded me of a "failure" comment I posted long ago on my "Words" page when I was first building my website.

[Flexmoney]

Sam, very nice post. If you don't mind, I am going to cherry-pick some of your sub-plots.

When we choose to see "room for improvement" as a negative, I believe we are falling into a trap. Instead, I see "room for improvement" as a very positive realization.

Why beat ourselves up over where we are? We are where we are, right? Is adopting a negative view or negative self-talk going to change that in any way?

Right on. The trick is to use an objective eye.

If I had to "go negative" in my thinking to become a national champion, if that was the only way I could achieve that goal, I would simply choose another goal.

We can think about an aspect of of our performance as a grove on a record...or being stuck in a rut (I have a buddy that does off-roading/mud boggin...the tires that get used get bigger and then bigger...and the ruts get deeper and deeper.)

What is the goal? Is the goal to defeat the rut? It might be, for some. I recognize that I do that, from time to time. (probably more than I should)

Or, is the goal to get to the other side?

If your needle is stuck in a groove, you can sharpen the needle (or make it dull)..you can change the speed that the record spins...you can reverse the direction... ... but, it's still all about the groove. That is letting the groove dominate.

Same with driving through a rut. The rut becomes the focus. You empower the rut. (the rut doesn't care)

So, if the goal is something else...why not just toss the record and cut a new and better groove? Why not ignore the rut and find a better path.

So, that begs the question...what is the goal? And, then...do your actions support the goal. (There is a better way to say this...I'll see if I can steal it from another source. I think it ties in well with what Sam said, as well as with Bassham's "pay value".)

[benos]

Nice, on-topic, signature Kyle.

[Flexmoney]

Nice, on-topic, signature Kyle.

Have FUN....be safe...and, instead of worrying about what you are "suppose to do" - - notice what you are doing. Ask yourself why. See if it meshes with where you want to go.

Thanks, Brian. I guess it does tie in pretty well. When I just read your post, I was thinking only the second half tied in, but the first half goes great with Sam's post too. Cool. (even with my "typo" )

I just posted this as it's own thread. Goes real well with this topic: Goals and Toilet Seats

[redmanfixit]

I think I remember shooting with you when you first got started, Cha-Lee. You used to have a lot more fun, and when you smiled, it didn't look so tight. You shoot well though.

[CHA-LEE]

redmanfixit> You are right. I use to have a lot more “Fun” when I first started. I think this change is mainly because when I first started I was a 100% consumer at the match. I didn’t do anything other than tape, brass and shoot. That and I didn’t have any expectations of performance. I simply just shot and it didn’t matter if I had a bunch of donkey screw ups or not. Now I am more involved in setting up the matches, ROing, and things like that which are really like “Work” instead of fun. I also care more about my performance when I shoot so I tend to have the “Game Face” on more than before. I think I keep a fairly good balance of serious/fun when attending a match.

Don’t get me wrong. I still have a lot of fun shooting matches and I can’t remember the last time I went to a match and didn’t have a good laugh about something. Its just that my “Place” in the match is different than before. I am not talking about finishing order either. I hope that this makes sense.

[redmanfixit]

There is no path in the experience that comes without a price.

All in all though, life is far too important to be taken seriously!!

[BillR1]

I have read these books my self. Praising good performance and letting go of bad performance.

but this does not work good with my dog.Praise when done right insant correction when done wrong.

I like this, as this is the way (right or wrong) I usually respond to my own shooting. If I've done well (to my standards) in a match, it's easier to relax for a day or so and enjoy it. If I've shot poorly, I NEED to shoot again right away to try and correct some of the faults and practice the weak areas. Waiting a few days afterwards to shoot in that situation drives me nuts!!

For example, I tanked a classifier last weekend. Sitting here in my office watching it snow and knowing that I won't be able to shoot anytime soon is just maddening. I've dry-fired every day since, but it's not the same as a live session.

I needed this thread!!

Edited December 23, 2010 by BillR1

[twikster]

you oughta try a big shoot, your first one, facing a TV camera on National News, pivot 180 degrees and hit a row of plates at 25 yds! :-) It was my first big match, and I'd never practiced the plates before!. I would have settled for a miss, but I hit the target that was beside the one I was aiming at, and the entire WORLD knew that I'd missed my mark by at least 18". My knees were knocking together, despite my feet being a shoulder width apart. It was decidedly not funny to me at the time.