Swingers through ports, the ugly truth

[kevin c]

I hear that there are a lot of fast swingers down there in Mesa (must be the high desert climate), so, getting ready for A2, I did a practice with a swinger through a port. Basically, I had the swinger visible only in its straight up position, where it moves the fastest after activation. It was a nasty but informative session.

I found that I was lucky to get trailing edge D hits, 70% of the time, even setting up on the leading edge of the target as it came through the port. The only A zone hits I got were when I broke the shots way ahead of the leading edge. That was with the 22 conversion. It was a bit worse with the competition set up. I sat down to figure exactly what I need to do to get the A hits.

I was fifteen yards away, shooting a minor PF .40 iron sighted pistol. At 750 fps, it takes the bullet 0.06 seconds to get to the target. I will not embarass myself by revealing my real reaction time, but let's just say, for the sake of the example, that I had the fast twitch reflexes and laser eyesight of my 18 year old son, and can consistently break the shot in 0.14 seconds. That means it takes 0.2 total seconds for me to get the bullet to the target.

In the mean time, the target was swinging 180 degrees at a moderate rate of one sweep in 1.5 seconds, being slowest at the horizontal, fastest at top. The A zone was going through a half circle six feet across. This part of the math I need somebody else to calculate, but I'm guessing that the fastest rate at the top of the arc might be a third faster than the average speed, so I end up getting the A zone moving at a rate of 100 inches per second as it passes by the port (72 inches diameter of the full circle times pi divided by 2 for the half circle movement divided by 1.5 seconds times velocity adjustment of 1.33).

So, the bloody target moves 20 inches in the time it takes me to get the shot onto the paper. If I set up on the leading edge, my shot will miss the target's trailing edge by 2 inches!. If I want a mid A zone hit, I have to be 11 inches off the target's leading edge. For a port just a bit wider that the target, that means setting up in the middle and reacting as soon as the target's edge appears on either side (which might be hard to know if the activator triggered the swinger from another position in the stage). or setting up on the far side of the port to allow more lead time after the target first appears (but risking the wait if you don't set up right and the target appears on the side you set up on).

Setting up on the lower portion of the A zone helps a little, as it'll be moving slower. At the same sweep rate of 1.5 seconds, a portion of the target 12 inches lower moves about three inches less in the same time.

If they tack noshoots or partial hard cover on those suckers, I'm doomed

Edited November 3, 2009 by kevin c

[cking]

Too many assumptions, how fast is swinger, the weight on it, the radius etc. Port size and distances of you and target from port.

The way I'd setup is step to left of the port and setup a solid rest, aim at the 12 oclock A zone and practice to see how soon to break the shot. Now step inside port and if you can't see the target when you need to your screwed.

[Jadeslade]

Yeah, Area 2 has some fast swingers. The ports aren't small - they could be, you never know- and guns with really good triggers-1911 style-can hammer them, but most shooters are probably better off shooting them in 2 passes. Don't sweat it too much, we all have to shoot them, you will be in good company! Some shooters are amazing with these things-they consistently get 2 A's, so it can be done.

[boz1911]

If you want to practice these swingers, that's ok but it seems you are focusing too much energy on a particular piece of the puzzle. Like Jade said, everyone has to shoot them. Practice them so that when you do see them it's no big deal but don't let them consume you, you'll do fine.

[Flexmoney]

You aren't dealing with pure reaction time. You will have "extra" info from seeing the timing/speed of the target.

The only probably I had with the swingers at A2 was that I didn't pay attention close enough during the walk-thru and didn't realize that there was a NS on one of them.

Quit doing the math. Don't sweat it. It's just a distraction.

[kevin c]

Even though I'll need to see each swinger to know what's coming, at least now I have a starting point to work from. That includes a better understanding on setting up the shot.

It was fun doing the numbers, even if it was only for one specific situation.

Thx for the advice!

[Matt Cheely]

Point the gun at the middle of the port, and shoot when you see the target. Don't over think it.

[davecutts]

Point the gun at the middle of the port, and shoot when you see the target. Don't over think it.

WHAT, can it be that easy?

[kevin c]

Point the gun at the middle of the port, and shoot when you see the target. Don't over think it.

That's what I was doing this past Saturday, and I kept missing.

I'll be working on it again this weekend, setting up with more lead on the target. I'll also try different speeds and distances.

[Punished]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZjr7TmtIVU

In that video Todd Jarrett talks about shooting swingers through a port (about 2 minutes in). He says the same thing Matt did, which is keep the gun pointed in the middle and break the shot once it enters the port.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Punished

[kevin c]

Can't access the video right now, but there might be a dot sighted open gun with a mebbe 20 oz SA trigger vs iron sighted Glock trigger difference. I'll try again this weekend, but, short of a move to the Dark Side, I'm thinking I'll need faster reflexes or more lead on the target.

Edited November 3, 2009 by kevin c

[Neomet]

Fast swingers hehehe.... yup got those here for sure. I will say that I haven't seen a stage where you couldn't put one in the A/C of the buggers even on the first swing through a port. Of course that doesn't mean you will do it, trust me. I struggle with getting all mentally/physically tense thinking about how I have to squeeze off the shot just as soon as I see the target. The result of that is I choke up the connection between my eye and my trigger finger and might catch a D if I am lucky or a mike. For me more than any other target type I have to consciously tell myself to relax to do well.

[jasmap]

Fast swingers hehehe.... yup got those here for sure. I will say that I haven't seen a stage where you couldn't put one in the A/C of the buggers even on the first swing through a port. Of course that doesn't mean you will do it, trust me. I struggle with getting all mentally/physically tense thinking about how I have to squeeze off the shot just as soon as I see the target. The result of that is I choke up the connection between my eye and my trigger finger and might catch a D if I am lucky or a mike. For me more than any other target type I have to consciously tell myself to relax to do well.

Rick's correct in that there won't be a shot here at Area II that isn't doable for us "common" shooters. There will be tough shots I'm sure but they will be doable.

[JohnGaultsGun]

Point the gun at the middle of the port, and shoot when you see the target. Don't over think it.

+1 To what Matt said. And if you think you have a miss, take that 3rd shot.

[Field]

I hear that there are a lot of fast swingers down there in Mesa (must be the high desert climate), so, getting ready for A2, I did a practice with a swinger through a port. Basically, I had the swinger visible only in its straight up position, where it moves the fastest after activation. It was a nasty but informative session.

I found that I was lucky to get trailing edge D hits, 70% of the time, even setting up on the leading edge of the target as it came through the port. The only A zone hits I got were when I broke the shots way ahead of the leading edge. That was with the 22 conversion. It was a bit worse with the competition set up. I sat down to figure exactly what I need to do to get the A hits.

I was fifteen yards away, shooting a minor PF .40 iron sighted pistol. At 750 fps, it takes the bullet 0.06 seconds to get to the target. I will not embarass myself by revealing my real reaction time, but let's just say, for the sake of the example, that I had the fast twitch reflexes and laser eyesight of my 18 year old son, and can consistently break the shot in 0.14 seconds. That means it takes 0.2 total seconds for me to get the bullet to the target.

In the mean time, the target was swinging 180 degrees at a moderate rate of one sweep in 1.5 seconds, being slowest at the horizontal, fastest at top. The A zone was going through a half circle six feet across. This part of the math I need somebody else to calculate, but I'm guessing that the fastest rate at the top of the arc might be a third faster than the average speed, so I end up getting the A zone moving at a rate of 100 inches per second as it passes by the port (72 inches diameter of the full circle times pi divided by 2 for the half circle movement divided by 1.5 seconds times velocity adjustment of 1.33).

So, the bloody target moves 20 inches in the time it takes me to get the shot onto the paper. If I set up on the leading edge, my shot will miss the target's trailing edge by 2 inches!. If I want a mid A zone hit, I have to be 11 inches off the target's leading edge. For a port just a bit wider that the target, that means setting up in the middle and reacting as soon as the target's edge appears on either side (which might be hard to know if the activator triggered the swinger from another position in the stage). or setting up on the far side of the port to allow more lead time after the target first appears (but risking the wait if you don't set up right and the target appears on the side you set up on).

Setting up on the lower portion of the A zone helps a little, as it'll be moving slower. At the same sweep rate of 1.5 seconds, a portion of the target 12 inches lower moves about three inches less in the same time.

If they tack noshoots or partial hard cover on those suckers, I'm doomed

i think this is one of those things where you need to simply be more touchy-feely and intuitive about the whole thing rather than doing a bunch of number crunching. just an oppinion.

just eyeball those swingers. shoot some more shots at them and figure out when you need to shoot to hit them where you want.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Field

[Field]

cmon guys you just gotta play some video games (or shoot at little critters running around) then you will get better at shooting swingers

[kevin c]

i think this is one of those things where you need to simply be more touchy-feely and intuitive about the whole thing rather than doing a bunch of number crunching. just an oppinion.

just eyeball those swingers. shoot some more shots at them and figure out when you need to shoot to hit them where you want.

Pretty much what the others were suggesting too. Getting analytical goes with what I do and suits me, so it was easy to look at it that way. I'll back off and just shoot until I get a feel for it.

Thanks to all, again.

kc

[benos]

i think this is one of those things where you need to simply be more touchy-feely and intuitive about the whole thing rather than doing a bunch of number crunching. just an oppinion.

just eyeball those swingers. shoot some more shots at them and figure out when you need to shoot to hit them where you want.

Pretty much what the others were suggesting too. Getting analytical goes with what I do and suits me, so it was easy to look at it that way. I'll back off and just shoot until I get a feel for it.

Thanks to all, again.

kc

Often our natural tendency is the worst response. See the target, shoot the target.

be

[kevin c]

Well, I went out today, and put 400 or so rounds on a upright swinger through a port, and with adjacent targets (to get the transitions going). I finally started to get the hits. Got some help from a local three gun whiz who is much better with a pistol than he'll admit, and digested the advice here.

Brian said it the simplest: "See the target, shoot the target" That's all there really is, but I tried to overanalize it, and manage to consciously do something that didn't need that type of effort.

I was telling myself: "Break the shot as the leading edge of the target crosses my POA." But I was holding myself back deliberately, waiting for a tripwire like release, and when I saw the target edge over the FS, only then would I start to shoot, rushing it and trying to force the shot. No wonder I was missing - I was deliberately ignoring the visual imput of seeing the target edge coming to the POA until it was already too late.

What's funny is that, in retrospect, I think that even last week my subconscious already had the shot plotted out and would sometimes break through with shots that I would think were early, but probably were the only center hits I was getting early on.

At the range, Chris S. and I described it as "anticipating" the break of the shot, but I don't think it's anticipation in a classic, conscious sense. Perhaps it's more an awareness, an accepting and an intuitive using of a visual input. I can calculate that I have to be 11 inches off the leading edge as I "start to shoot", what ever that means, but now, without the need to do the math, I can make the shot better using the "feel" of what's right visually.

Sounds weird, but the proof was on the target. Last week, of ten shots, all consecutive single shots taken every other pass (all shots with the target moving in the same direction) I'd get half trailing edge D's and half misses. Today, I was getting 6 or 7 A's and 3 C's, and an occasional called trailing D when the conscious mind tried to impose itself again, and those were shots taken on consecutive target passes through the port, and with a transition from another target for every two through the port.

It's really nice to know that I can call my hits in this scenario. That's what was concerning. Trying to know whether to wait and take a third shot on a third pass, and just not KNOWING.

Thank you all, very much!

Kevin

[Matt P.]

Often our natural tendency is the worst response. See the target, shoot the target.

be

Exactly that simple.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Matt P.