question about engaging a mover before it is activated

[spanky]

there was a stage at a match I shot today where the head box of a swinger was visible from one spot before it was activated.

one shooter took that shot during the CoF and finished with an impressive time.

The question came up, shortly thereafter, of course, as to whether it had to be activated.

I'm relatively new to the sport but it's my understanding that it must be activated prior to engagement. Is this correct? If not, what should be done?

The shooter was then given a re-shoot. It's my undersatnding that, under that circumstance, the course would be scored and the shooter would incur per-shot penalties since, obviously there was a competitive advantage in that instance.

What say ye of more experience?

Edited November 1, 2009 by spankaveli

[GentlemanJim]

You have to activate them before shootin them

Cant quote the rule...but its there

Jim

[Nik Habicht]

Look at Section 9.9. In short if it's visible you can shoot at it. In Level 1 matches, the stage description may state that movers must be activated before being engaged. If the stage description reads that way, it's a procedural per shot fired.

In either event, the mover must be activated at some point in time --- or misses and FTE penalties apply to non-activated moving targets......

If the first shooter shoots a non-activated mover --- where the stage description doesn't prohibit it at a Level 1 --- I suppose Section 2.3 could come into play: Where match officials declare that a forbidden action, change the course description and require the shooter to reshoot the stage. (If the angle where you could see the parked head is extreme, maybe they missed an unsafe angle of engagement?)

[lugnut]

If the COF didn't say anything otherwise- what he did was fine. At local matches where this could happen the COF often specifies that the activator must be engaged before the swinger.... otherwise the stage should have been set up better.

Edited November 1, 2009 by lugnut

[Nik Habicht]

You have to activate them before shootin them

Cant quote the rule...but its there

Jim

Not anymore --- violation of rule 1.1.5 --- targets must be shootable on an as and when visible basis.....

Want to force 'em to activate it? Either hide it, or write it in the stage description at a Level 1.....

[spanky]

Interesting. That's why I didn't press the issue, I wasn't 100%. Well, that and the guy wasn't shooting in my division.

[bofe954]

I may use that in a stage, give an option of a fairly difficult headshot vs dealing with timing the swinger. Fun stage design if they did it intentionally (in my opinion).

[racerba]

In either event, the mover must be activated at some point in time --- or misses and FTE penalties apply to non-activated moving targets......

If I can shoot the mover before activation, why do I have to activate it? (Barring that the activator is a shoot target, of course) I know what 9.9.3 says, but that is if you miss the target. How can you give me a miss if I hit it? 9.9.3 is meant for non activated targets that you did not shoot at. If you insist on applying 9.9.3, then I would shoot the stage and AFTER my last shot, I would then activate the mover. 9.9.3 doesn't say when I have to activate it.

[Nik Habicht]

In either event, the mover must be activated at some point in time --- or misses and FTE penalties apply to non-activated moving targets......

If I can shoot the mover before activation, why do I have to activate it? (Barring that the activator is a shoot target, of course) I know what 9.9.3 says, but that is if you miss the target. How can you give me a miss if I hit it? 9.9.3 is meant for non activated targets that you did not shoot at. If you insist on applying 9.9.3, then I would shoot the stage and AFTER my last shot, I would then activate the mover. 9.9.3 doesn't say when I have to activate it.

And that would be legal.....

I once used that very loophole to shoot 4 deltas on two movers and generate a killer time on a rifle stage....

[CHA-LEE]

Can anyone clarify what the definition of an "Activated" target is? Here is an example. You have a popper that is set to activate a swinger. The swingers "Reset" resting position is allowing the target to be fully exposed. The cable running between the activating popper and the swinger has quite a bit of slack in it so it takes a while (half a second) for it to fall to a point where it actually trips the swinger into motion. In this scenario, is the swinger "Activated" as soon as the activating steel is hit which would allow you ample time to shoot the swinger when its still stationary in its "Reset" position before it starts moving? Or is the swinger considered "Activated" once it starts moving from its "Reset" position?

[outerlimits]

Can anyone clarify what the definition of an "Activated" target is? Here is an example. You have a popper that is set to activate a swinger. The swingers "Reset" resting position is allowing the target to be fully exposed. The cable running between the activating popper and the swinger has quite a bit of slack in it so it takes a while (half a second) for it to fall to a point where it actually trips the swinger into motion. In this scenario, is the swinger "Activated" as soon as the activating steel is hit which would allow you ample time to shoot the swinger when its still stationary in its "Reset" position before it starts moving? Or is the swinger considered "Activated" once it starts moving from its "Reset" position?

if the course description says that steel activates that swinger, and you engaged it (i.e. hit it), then yep, why not? bad stage design if that's the case.

[CHA-LEE]

I feel the same way, that if you hit the activating steel the moving target is considered "Activated" regardless of if it has actually started moving yet. But I wasn’t sure if there was some rule that defined what an activated target was which apposed this thought process.

[sfchorn]

Can anyone clarify what the definition of an "Activated" target is? Here is an example. You have a popper that is set to activate a swinger. The swingers "Reset" resting position is allowing the target to be fully exposed. The cable running between the activating popper and the swinger has quite a bit of slack in it so it takes a while (half a second) for it to fall to a point where it actually trips the swinger into motion. In this scenario, is the swinger "Activated" as soon as the activating steel is hit which would allow you ample time to shoot the swinger when its still stationary in its "Reset" position before it starts moving? Or is the swinger considered "Activated" once it starts moving from its "Reset" position?

Sure, I can try to clarify and show the rules which (I hope) support my thinking

2.1.8.5.1 - Level I matches are encouraged but not required to strictly comply with this requirement. The writted stage briefing may prohibit competitors from engaging certain target(s) which may be visible prior to activation until the operation of the activating mechanism has been initiated. (emphasis mine)

9.9.3 - Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. (emphasis mine)

It seems clear from the above rules that you only have to activate the mechanism that initiates target movement - NOT wait for the target movement to begin - to engage moving targets.

Anyone see things differently?

[Nik Habicht]

Can anyone clarify what the definition of an "Activated" target is? Here is an example. You have a popper that is set to activate a swinger. The swingers "Reset" resting position is allowing the target to be fully exposed. The cable running between the activating popper and the swinger has quite a bit of slack in it so it takes a while (half a second) for it to fall to a point where it actually trips the swinger into motion. In this scenario, is the swinger "Activated" as soon as the activating steel is hit which would allow you ample time to shoot the swinger when its still stationary in its "Reset" position before it starts moving? Or is the swinger considered "Activated" once it starts moving from its "Reset" position?

Sure, I can try to clarify and show the rules which (I hope) support my thinking

2.1.8.5.1 - Level I matches are encouraged but not required to strictly comply with this requirement. The writted stage briefing may prohibit competitors from engaging certain target(s) which may be visible prior to activation until the operation of the activating mechanism has been initiated. (emphasis mine)

9.9.3 - Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. (emphasis mine)

It seems clear from the above rules that you only have to activate the mechanism that initiates target movement - NOT wait for the target movement to begin - to engage moving targets.

Anyone see things differently?

I don't. The only problem could be if you hit, but don't knock down the popper.....

Doorways, ports, levers you need to throw, ropes you need to pull, tend to work better in that regard than a popper that needs to be shot down....

[Joe4d]

Level I's May,, not must or shall, so if COF doesnt say must be activiated before shooting the competitor is free to blast away at a visible target.

WSB only says rope activates swinger no mention of must activate before shooting.

Ok so lets say the target activator is a pull a rope, shooter 1 shoots all targets including the visible head on the swinger, then walks over pulls the rope.

I say score stops last shot fired good to go.

Shooter two however does the same thing but after last shot doesnot walk over and pull rope. 9.9.3 brings up an interesting scoring situation, so shooter gets say 2 B's on the head shots, but then on the same target gets a FTE and two mikes because Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. (emphasis mine)

humm, now chew on that a bit kinda weird,

[Nik Habicht]

Level I's May,, not must or shall, so if COF doesnt say must be activiated before shooting the competitor is free to blast away at a visible target.

WSB only says rope activates swinger no mention of must activate before shooting.

Ok so lets say the target activator is a pull a rope, shooter 1 shoots all targets including the visible head on the swinger, then walks over pulls the rope.

I say score stops last shot fired good to go.

Shooter two however does the same thing but after last shot doesnot walk over and pull rope. 9.9.3 brings up an interesting scoring situation, so shooter gets say 2 B's on the head shots, but then on the same target gets a FTE and two mikes because Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. (emphasis mine)

humm, now chew on that a bit kinda weird,

Those are apparently the right calls though. I once took 2 deltas on a pair of movers to save ~30-35 yards of running through a maze on the clock. Finished shooting, started running, activated the movers, and proceeded to unload and show clear.....

[Sherwyn]

Level I's May,, not must or shall, so if COF doesnt say must be activiated before shooting the competitor is free to blast away at a visible target.

WSB only says rope activates swinger no mention of must activate before shooting.

Ok so lets say the target activator is a pull a rope, shooter 1 shoots all targets including the visible head on the swinger, then walks over pulls the rope.

I say score stops last shot fired good to go.

Shooter two however does the same thing but after last shot doesnot walk over and pull rope. 9.9.3 brings up an interesting scoring situation, so shooter gets say 2 B's on the head shots, but then on the same target gets a FTE and two mikes because Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. (emphasis mine)

humm, now chew on that a bit kinda weird,

Have had this discussion before.

If you can engage the target without activation and the WSB doesn't say it must be activated before engaging, then 9.9.3 does not apply because it is not a moving target.

Sherwyn

[Flexmoney]

If you can engage the target without activation and the WSB doesn't say it must be activated before engaging, then 9.9.3 does not apply because it is not a moving target.

Sherwyn

Huh?

[Nik Habicht]

If you can engage the target without activation and the WSB doesn't say it must be activated before engaging, then 9.9.3 does not apply because it is not a moving target.

Sherwyn

Huh?

Sherwyn's argument seems to be that the mover's just an oddly shaped target stand in that situation -- where the target is visible in the unactivated state and where the stage description doesn't mention activation.

The way around that if you want to leave the stationary engagement option is to write the stage instructions like this: Engage all targets as they become visible and activate mover(s) by (fill in required action.)

[Joe4d]

no targets are moving until activated, if you dont activate the target before ULSC, you get the mikes and FTE even if you hit the target.

I know it sounds screwy but thats the way the rule is written, nothing in 9.9.3 says it doesnt apply if the target is hit but not activated,

[Nik Habicht]

no targets are moving until activated, if you dont activate the target before ULSC, you get the mikes and FTE even if you hit the target.

I know it sounds screwy but thats the way the rule is written, nothing in 9.9.3 says it doesnt apply if the target is hit but not activated,

Hm, yep, I see what you're saying --- but in the absence of some language in the stage description, how are we supposed to know that the target was designed to be a mover? How are to divine that the club didn't just run out of target stands and pull an out&back or a swinger to use as a stand? (I know --- highly unlikely scenario, but one that's easily avoided in either stage design or by writing a solid stage briefing....)

[Sherwyn]

no targets are moving until activated, if you dont activate the target before ULSC, you get the mikes and FTE even if you hit the target.

I know it sounds screwy but thats the way the rule is written, nothing in 9.9.3 says it doesnt apply if the target is hit but not activated,

1.1.5 defines freestyle "...must be permitted...and to shoot on an as and when visible basis"

2.1.8.5 defines an appearing target as being completely covered before activation (with level 1 exception - see below) - if available before activation, then it is a static target.

Read 9.9.4 if you are talking about a level 1 and it is in the WSB - procedural per shot fired - no mikes, no FTE...not in the WSB - no penalties.

Level 2 and up - if I can put the hits on it and not activate it - NO penalties

First the course has to be within the rules, before you can apply penalties.

Sherwyn