sperman Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) I'm curious on the "mag stuffed in belt" example for production. Trip to open or not? Depends on the location -- if the location is division compliant, it's good to go.... I guess I'm confused between 5.2.4 and Amidon's response. 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor’s belt and specifically designed for that purpose. A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary magazines. The way I read 5.2.4, the only way it's legal for mag's not to be in "retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose" is if the WSB allows it. The exception is that you can go to your barney mag "in a pocket" after you've used the mags on your belt. Edited February 23, 2010 by sperman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 The result of several exchanges with DNROI: ... If in a regular loaded and holstered start, the written stage briefing says nothing about using up your primary magazines first before using any pocket magazines, is there a penalty for using a pocketed magazine for a reload during the conduct of the stage? No there is not a penalty per your scenario and 5.2.4 is already being worked on for presentation to the BOD in December.Thanks John That's been awhile ago. The minutes from that meeting are so sparse, I can't tell if this ever came up or not. I have to assume it wasn't discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 I guess I'm confused between 5.2.4 and Amidon's response. 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor’s belt and specifically designed for that purpose. A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary magazines. The way I read 5.2.4, the only way it's legal for mag's not to be in "retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose" is if the WSB allows it. The exception is that you can go to your barney mag "in a pocket" after you've used the mags on your belt. New competitor shows up, without mag pouches. No one has any for his obscure blaster. He says "No problem, I'll just stuff 'em in my belt, as I have no back pockets, and want to play in production...." When considering USPSA rules questions, I start with these: Is it specifically addressed in the rulebook? No -- better be very careful.... Is it safe? No -- that's a problem, gotta address that; yes -- no problem. Does it provide for competitive equity or advantage? Equity -- no problem; advantage -- gotta address that.... So, Amidon's already said that folks can go into their pockets and that 5.2.4 wasn't really designed to punish that; more that it was written to keep folks from pre-positioning mags around the course of fire.... Mags in the waistband aren't specifically addressed -- there's no penalty stipulated anywhere in the rulebook, except for the behind the hip bone language for a couple of divisions.... Are mags carried in the wasteband safe? Sure -- I don't see a problem. (Dropped mags occur from mag pouches too, and are addressed in the rulebook...) Do mags carried in the proper location provide for competitive advantage? I don't see any open shooters without pouches -- unless they forgot their rig at home, and were only able to borrow a holster -- so no competitive advantage.... Just because it's different/is something we haven't seen or considered before, doesn't mean it's a problem -- just work through the decision making tree, and let the reality speak for itself.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 I guess I'm confused between 5.2.4 and Amidon's response. 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary magazines. The way I read 5.2.4, the only way it's legal for mag's not to be in "retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose" is if the WSB allows it. The exception is that you can go to your barney mag "in a pocket" after you've used the mags on your belt. New competitor shows up, without mag pouches. No one has any for his obscure blaster. He says "No problem, I'll just stuff 'em in my belt, as I have no back pockets, and want to play in production...." When considering USPSA rules questions, I start with these: Is it specifically addressed in the rulebook? No -- better be very careful.... Is it safe? No -- that's a problem, gotta address that; yes -- no problem. Does it provide for competitive equity or advantage? Equity -- no problem; advantage -- gotta address that.... So, Amidon's already said that folks can go into their pockets and that 5.2.4 wasn't really designed to punish that; more that it was written to keep folks from pre-positioning mags around the course of fire.... Mags in the waistband aren't specifically addressed -- there's no penalty stipulated anywhere in the rulebook, except for the behind the hip bone language for a couple of divisions.... Are mags carried in the wasteband safe? Sure -- I don't see a problem. (Dropped mags occur from mag pouches too, and are addressed in the rulebook...) Do mags carried in the proper location provide for competitive advantage? I don't see any open shooters without pouches -- unless they forgot their rig at home, and were only able to borrow a holster -- so no competitive advantage.... Just because it's different/is something we haven't seen or considered before, doesn't mean it's a problem -- just work through the decision making tree, and let the reality speak for itself.... The way I read 5.2.4 it is covered in the rule book. I guess the belt itself could be considered a retention device, although I don't think it is "specifically designed for that purpose." It will be interesting to see how 5.2.4 is reworked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Scott, how so? 5.2.4 mentions being able to do something without penalty, but doesn't address what a penalty should be or whether its imposition should be mandatory or at RO discretion.... Amidon's already confirmed that the intent of the language wasn't to punish shooters who pull a mag out of their pocket, so I'd use that to arrive at my decision that pulling a mag out of your waistband is o.k., as long as the actual location complies with division criteria (if any....) We've covered that ground in the last five pages -- at least as far as the pockets/penalty/no penalty situation is concerned.... Ideally everyone would use mag pouches, always. If anything else were faster, folks would be using it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skizeks Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor’s belt and specifically designed for that purpose. A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary magazines. I have read this a bunch of times and still do not see where it says it is a procedural to use a magazine from your back pocket while you still have magazines in a mag pouch on your belt? The only thing I see about a penalty is where it says without penalty. Anything other than that and you are making it up!! The rule book may imply allot of things, but you can only make rulings on what the rule book says not what it implys. No penalty. Call the RM, pony up the green and Arb it. Duane Eggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 All of this bickering back and forth over the semantics of the rules is funny. Do you guys REALLY want an inch thick rule book that covers every single possible caveat of a given rule? Or do you want to use common sense in making a judgment call for the given situation so we all can get back to the shooting? There are plenty of other rules that the Range Master can leverage to resolve this given issue. He can change the WSB. He can mandate the mag in front as a Forbidden Action. These are just two simple and final resolutions to this issue. But really, does it have to go there? The Production rules specify where the magazines can be located on the belt. Rule 5.2.4 stipulates that he can leverage that special magazine AFTER all of his primary magazines have been exhausted. So him taking the first mag from the front of his belt is against the rules as they are written. Having the magazine in that front location is also against the rules as they are written. In the world of common sense, the RO should have said "C'MON BUDDY!!!.... Put that mag back where it belongs" before the shooter even started the stage run. EVERYONE who can read the rule book knows what was attempted is against the rules. That is a fact that can not be denied. Does it really matter what the penalty is. To take it a step further, who would want to even shoot with a guy that blatantly tries to cheat? The Range Master could simply DQ the shooter for unsportsmanlike conduct. This is a volunteer driven sport and the rule book is just thick enough to keep it palatable for these generous volunteers. If you turn it into a Rules quagmire with a 500 page rule book, then nobody will step up and volunteer to take on the RO responsibilities other than the guys that enjoy beating shooters over the head with the rule book. Is that really the direction where we want the sport to go? I hope not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 He can mandate the mag in front as a Forbidden Action. Nope.... Can't use the Forbidden Action for dealing with competitor equipment.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Handing out Procedurals for stuff you don't think is right is just not good RO'ing. It's the equivalent of a FTDR rule, which we don't have in USPSA. Nik covered this on post #5 ... cite the correct rule for application of procedural penalties --- those would have to come from Chapter 10. I couldn't find anything in Chapter 10 to support that call, barring language in the WSB requiring mags to come from the belt..... If the BOD intended that when they re-wrote 5.2.4, they should have added a sub-graph to section 10.2..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 From the USPSA Rule book Appendix A3.... Forbidden Action . . . . . . .A competitor action which has been expressly prohibited by the Range Master and so reflected in the Written Stage Briefing. With the above definition of what a "Forbidden Action" is, the Range Master could alter the WSB to explicitly state "It is a FORBIDDEN ACTION to retrieve a magazine(s) from any location other than the division specified mag pouch locations or pockets". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 This topic has nothing to do with forbidden actions. (If you wish to explore that, please do so on a dedicated thread.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 From the USPSA Rule book Appendix A3.... Forbidden Action . . . . . . .A competitor action which has been expressly prohibited by the Range Master and so reflected in the Written Stage Briefing. With the above definition of what a "Forbidden Action" is, the Range Master could alter the WSB to explicitly state "It is a FORBIDDEN ACTION to retrieve a magazine(s) from any location other than the division specified mag pouch locations or pockets". Time to take an R.O. Class..... See Chapter 2 for Forbidden actions -- which don't deal with competitor equipment. RMs are powerless to modify the division rules governing equipment..... You can write a WSB to require mags to come from a table, drawer, someplace on the stage; you can't write one to keep folks from using a mag from their pocket because you don't like that.... Again -- it's that short rulebook thing, which I know you favor.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Please enlighten me on how making it a forbidden action to USE a mag from an illegal location on the belt per the division rules is considered modifying the division equipment rules? I am not forbidding the shooter from putting his magazines in any particular location. I am forbidding them from USING (Which could be considered an ACTION during the COF) magazines that do not comply with the division legal locations. If anything this forbidden action is enforcing the division rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 This topic has nothing to do with forbidden actions. (If you wish to explore that, please do so on a dedicated thread.) CLOSED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I just got a note from a (RMI) BOD member, asking me to share this (bold highlight is mine): You might add to the closed thread, that the BOD is in the process at this very time clarifying this rule so that there is no misunderstanding that there is no penalty involved.We are also clarifying and tweaking some other rules that have been problem areas in the past. If/when there is more on this...we can open the discussion at that time. -Admin EDIT : Opened back up. George emailed me that he had some input perspective to add. And, we now have the new and improved rule tweak that is applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Sorry for being late to the party, but my work schedule has taken priority this past year. I was reading this thread and think I can give some background on Rule 5.2.4 as published in our 2008 rulebook. To the best of my recollection: Prior to the 2004 rulebook, we allowed the use of additional (pocket) mags. Then, in 2003 IPSC removed that language from their rules. I was involved in the development of our (USPSA) 2004 rulebook at a time when USPSA tried to maintain as much commonality with the IPSC rulebook as possible. The removal of the pocket mags was noticed but not considered critical enough to be reinserted. During the next four years, it became obvious that the loss of pocket mags presented a problem at local matches with new shooters who did not have the adequate equipment. So, when constructing our 2008 rulebook (we were now working with a USPSA-specific rulebook), the allowance for pocket mags was reinserted. This was intended as an assist to new shooters. A penalty was specifically not included since the concensus was that there was no advantage to be gained by going to the pocket, therefore no penalty was necessary. Yes, we realized that there was a slight gray area there, but not one so important to worry about. In retrospect, it would have been best to also address the Division equipment placement issue back then, but no one thought of it at the time. So now we have a brand new rule which does address the Division requirements and I think that is a good change. What I do not know (I am no longer in the direct rulemaking pipeline) is why "after the start signal" was removed. Was it an oversight, or was it intentional? I do not know, but I think it creates new problems as have already been discussed here. Knowing some of the folks on the BOD, I'm confident it will be a subject of further discussion. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I can say that I do not remember any conversation about the removal of "after the start signal". I think this was simply an oversight in the editing procedure. The idea was to simply spell out that there was no penalty to using magazines from your pocket. We have an Instructor Conference this weekend coming up, and I can guarantee this will be discussed. Perhaps an interpretation will be needed to cover charge mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ap38 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Unloaded gun, all magazines and gun on the table. Can the magazines be stuffed in a back pocket or do they have to go in the magazine pouches to be used during the course of fire? No specification as to where the magazines must be placed in the WSB. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerflyer48 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) isn't that why you keep a few speaker magnets handy ap38 ? ( J. Barnhart did it at a big event back in the day ) magnets in pockets mags stick to jeans still probably be quicker to stuff in mag holders with a bit of practice.. John Edited March 5, 2012 by Amerflyer48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ap38 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 In general, yes it might be (probably is) quicker to stuff the mags in the pouches, but with a single stack and a 32 round field course (set up for production) the pocket may be quicker to get moving if there's time for a slow reload between arrays. I was tagged with 2 procedurals for loading from the pocket (loaded 2X)since I didn't fill the mag pouches. Thanks, ap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I was tagged with 2 procedurals for loading from the pocket (loaded 2X)since I didn't fill the mag pouches. New 2010 rulebook or old 2008 rulebook? Under the new rulebook there is no requirement that you exhaust or use mag pouches first before resorting to pockets. (See 5.2.4.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I was tagged with 2 procedurals for loading from the pocket (loaded 2X)since I didn't fill the mag pouches. New 2010 rulebook or old 2008 rulebook? Under the new rulebook there is no requirement that you exhaust or use mag pouches first before resorting to pockets. (See 5.2.4.) That paragraph is about as clear as mud and says two different things. Snip ... shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitors belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Next sentance snip... may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pockets. So what is the rule really saying, at what point do magazines become additional? Is it after the devices on the belt are full or after there is a magazine in the gun. Shall is not a defined term in the glossary (Appendix A3) as must and will are so what meaning should shall have? Is this rule why I saw so many magnetic additions to mag pouches at last years nationals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ap38 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I found this under the NROI Rulings: Table starts Created: 5/08/11 Effective: 5/15/11 Rule Number: 5.2.4 Applies to: Pistol Ruling Authority: DNROI Status: Released Question: I was wondering if on a table start if I could carry the magazines in my hand after the start signal when they are placed on the table, if they did not start in the magazine pouches as 5.2.4 states if I am shooting Production or Single Stack Divisions? Answer: Rule 5.2.4 is interpreted to mean that when the equipment has to start with the magazines or speed loaders in retention devices attached to the belt, for those divisions that have position restrictions of holster and other equipment, they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12. It seems like it would apply to the question at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) In general, yes it might be (probably is) quicker to stuff the mags in the pouches, but with a single stack and a 32 round field course (set up for production) the pocket may be quicker to get moving if there's time for a slow reload between arrays. I was tagged with 2 procedurals for loading from the pocket (loaded 2X)since I didn't fill the mag pouches. Thanks, ap You really need the full stage procedure here as there might be a part missing. Most times, when I've seen this - the concept isn't to get people to load their mags back into their mag pouches - it's to get you to load from a table or some other point not on your body. The stage procedure *MAY* have stated something ... "All reloads are to be made from the magazines placed on the xxx" Here's the deal. If there was no stipulation as to where reloads were to occur from in the stage description, there is no grounds for procedurals for loading from pockets - in fact, it's clear from the rulebook that loading from the pockets is expressly permitted - given that the chosen pockets used comply with positioning needs for the division. IE. If you through a handful of single stack mags in your front pants pocket - you could be in trouble. That trouble would have been a trip to open - not two procedurals, through. You have to have the full stage description though - to determine this. And if it doesn't have the stipulation in the stage briefing and they utter the word "intent" anywhere in their explanation - take the rulebook out, hand it to them - and ask politely "Aside from the arbitration section - where in the rulebook does it say anything about intent?" ETA - I just reread your original posting and you do note there is no stipulation. Then it becomes as I said - which pocket did you use for the single stack mags and was it behind the hipbone. Excerpted 5.2.4 for your pleasure... ...Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Edited March 5, 2012 by aztecdriver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ap38 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Thanks to all for the responses. I did place them in the back pocket, and wore pants with big pockets for that reason. Question resolved, at least in my mind. ap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now