ima45dv8 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 So what is the correct penality then? Per shot fired? Per mag used? Per mags remaining on belt? I'd say one, unless you can imagine some way it would be a significant advantage (and I'm not convinced ANYONE could drink that much tequila without forgetting the question). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I should be heading out the door, but... I didn't make up a single thing. Read it again if needed: Well, sure you did. You are inferring a course of logic to get the rule to work as you see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 So what is the correct penality then? Per shot fired? Per mag used? Per mags remaining on belt? I'd say one, unless you can imagine some way it would be a significant advantage (and I'm not convinced ANYONE could drink that much tequila without forgetting the question). I know you say one, but what does the rule book say? (I'm so glad you took that bait ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 But the instances listed in section 10 are examples and no where does it state that list is all-inclusive. If it is, that should be added. The "instances and examples" are in 10.2 10.1 binds 10.2 It's not a matter of "all inclusive". I don't disagree that the "shall" in section 5 means what it means. It just has no teeth, because a procedural penalty (or any guidance) does not go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 There will always be holes in the rule book. This might be one of them. (Slightly off topic, but what good does this rule do anyway? All I can see is that is a CYA in case of somebody coming up with a spring loaded pocket or something?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 USPSA Rule5.2.4 ... A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary magazines. edited to add emphasis I think this whole conversation wouldn't have happened if the bolded portion above wasn't in the rule books. Then again how do you stop someone from shooting a whole match with all their mags in their front pockets? That's kinda why I think the paragraph was written the way it was. It's not meant to infer there should be a penalty for using mags from pockets, but it shouldn't also be taken to mean pockets should be an acceptable way to carry mags over mag carriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Since I'll have mags in my pocket this weekemd and I ain't use to reaching 3'4th's the way to my ass to get one, this rule/penalty may come into question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Since I'll have mags in my pocket this weekemd and I ain't use to reaching 3'4th's the way to my ass to get one, this rule/penalty may come into question... ..... or if you agree with Kyle/Nik, it wont! Edited October 29, 2009 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I love these discussions - they are so educational - newbie RO and because I like getting picked on by 45dv8 and SS - i'll chime. I look at it this way. The match is a USPSA match, meaning that the stage briefing is present. By rule 3.2.5, the stage briefing must comply by USPSA rules. We can all agree that 5.2.4 defines a penalty has occurred if you reload from the pocket while still having mags in the belt. Because the WSB defines USPSA rules are in effect for the stage, by default, 10.1.1 is the rule to site as it is a procedural NOT defined that you can violate 5.2.4. ( ie, if only excepted in the written stage briefing) I think Mark's got it - it just took a couple of other paths to make the bootstrap. Let's not ask about if I reload production AFTER spending my last mag from my FRONT pocket that is in front of my hip whether that bumps me to play with the dot boys.... sorry - i'll retract this if it's chappin' butts.... Speaking of chappin' butts - Boz, you need to limber that left arm up and do some reach arounding - that 8th mag is a stretch - and yes, i've used them at South River. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Since I'll have mags in my pocket this weekemd and I ain't use to reaching 3'4th's the way to my ass to get one, this rule/penalty may come into question... ..... or if you agree with Kyle/Nik, it wont! I'll agree until after this weekend............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 "Shall" isn't a suggestion. Shall is undefined in the rulebook. "Must" however is defined, and could have been used instead of "Shall." Looking "Shall" up in Merriam-Webster suggests that its use has been the subject of debate over the years. Not a good choice of word when writing a rule or a WSB..... "A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary magazines." Saying you can only use the pocketed mags after the primaries are dropped or exhausted is likewise very clear. Procedurally, you are required to use the primary mags on your belt first. Not doing so is only allowed without penalty if the WSB states otherwise. Barring that, 5.2.4 is the binding requirement. I've pointed out two sections of the rulebook that impose procedural penalties that are not in Chapter 10. Both of those sections clearly spell out the offense, the procedural penalty that may apply for committing the offense, and any other factors (RO discretion) affecting imposition of the penalty. 5.2.4 falls short -- hence no penalty should apply. Lookit, I think it could be worded better, at least with respect to section 10 not including it as an example. But the instances listed in section 10 are examples and no where does it state that list is all-inclusive. If it is, that should be added. Neither does Section 10.2 state that the list is exclusive -- and that other penalties may be made up..... This in direct contrast to section 10.5 which specifically states that 10.5 is not an all-inclusive list. Coincidence? I think not.... ....but then what do I know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 So what is the correct penality then? Per shot fired? Per mag used? Per mags remaining on belt? I'd say one, unless you can imagine some way it would be a significant advantage (and I'm not convinced ANYONE could drink that much tequila without forgetting the question). I know you say one, but what does the rule book say? (I'm so glad you took that bait ) Bait? No... My answer stands. One unless you can create a situation that would make it a significant advantage. =================== I never turn off my PC unless I have to, and after 3-4 months of operation it decided the virtual memory was depleted. Couldn't even open Acrobat to access the rulebook(!). 14 Windows updates and a refresh on my virus files later, I'm back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 This appears to be a North vs. South type of debate. Where's the Mason-Dixon line lay again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 The "instances and examples" are in 10.210.1 binds 10.2 It's not a matter of "all inclusive". I think it may be a matter of exactly that. By describing 10.2 as Specific Examples, that makes me think that list is not the definitive list of infractions that could be awarded a procedural penalty. If it was intended as such, I'm cool with that, but it should be made clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 The only time that I can think of it's been an advatntage, was if you're prone and need to reload. If you're only wearing mags in front of you. And advantage is probably debateable too.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 "Shall" isn't a suggestion. Shall is undefined in the rulebook. "Must" however is defined, and could have been used instead of "Shall." Looking "Shall" up in Merriam-Webster suggests that its use has been the subject of debate over the years. Not a good choice of word when writing a rule or a WSB..... I did a similar search, and while I found numerous instances of shall being synonymous with "must" and "will", I didn't find a single reference to it being synonymous with "might", "maybe" or "may". If you lived in a Shall Issue state and applied for a carry permit, and were turned down due to a whim of a local politician, I suspect the meaning of Shall in your mind would very closely resemble Must. "A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary magazines." Saying you can only use the pocketed mags after the primaries are dropped or exhausted is likewise very clear. Procedurally, you are required to use the primary mags on your belt first. Not doing so is only allowed without penalty if the WSB states otherwise. Barring that, 5.2.4 is the binding requirement. I've pointed out two sections of the rulebook that impose procedural penalties that are not in Chapter 10. Both of those sections clearly spell out the offense, the procedural penalty that may apply for committing the offense, and any other factors (RO discretion) affecting imposition of the penalty. 5.2.4 falls short -- hence no penalty should apply. Lookit, I think it could be worded better, at least with respect to section 10 not including it as an example. But the instances listed in section 10 are examples and no where does it state that list is all-inclusive. If it is, that should be added. Neither does Section 10.2 state that the list is exclusive -- and that other penalties may be made up..... This in direct contrast to section 10.5 which specifically states that 10.5 is not an all-inclusive list. Coincidence? I think not.... ....but then what do I know? Folks, let's agree on something right now. Using terms that imply I'm making this up are not appropriate and are outside the lines of the Rules Forum Guidelines. You are free to disagree and state that I'm reading and interpreting this incorrectly. I may be, but then again, so might you. I won't use the argument that you are being deliberately disingenuous and I'd like for all of you to extend the same courtesy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Without diving into the specific rules, I have a fear of WSB's turning into 12 page legal documents with sections and subsections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 So what is the correct penality then? Per shot fired? Per mag used? Per mags remaining on belt? I'd say one, unless you can imagine some way it would be a significant advantage (and I'm not convinced ANYONE could drink that much tequila without forgetting the question). I know you say one, but what does the rule book say? (I'm so glad you took that bait ) Bait? No... My answer stands. One unless you can create a situation that would make it a significant advantage. One procedural per what? I can't find anything that supports your position. I can't find anything that supports mine for that matter. I do know that I have never heard of a procedural penalty that is not defined. I don't think you are making this up btw. I do see your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 This in direct contrast to section 10.5 which specifically states that 10.5 is not an all-inclusive list. Coincidence? I think not........but then what do I know? Folks, let's agree on something right now. Using terms that imply I'm making this up are not appropriate and are outside the lines of the Rules Forum Guidelines. You are free to disagree and state that I'm reading and interpreting this incorrectly. I may be, but then again, so might you. I won't use the argument that you are being deliberately disingenuous and I'd like for all of you to extend the same courtesy. Mark, easy there --- I'm not suggesting you're making anything up..... My "Coincidence? I think not...." was intended as a reference to the rulebook writers --- as in if they wanted to define it as inclusive or exclusive they would have..... I maintain that they had an opportunity to work penalty language into 5.2.4 --- as they did in the other two non-Chapter 10 rules I found. Since they omitted that --- I believe a procedural is a stretch.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I am going to jump in here. Most if not all WSBs state that the stage is governed by the current USPSA rulebook. This statement therefore includes in the WSB any and all applicable rules. Since the rules state that mags may be carried in other than specialized mag carriers attached to the belt and once those magazines carried in the specific carriers are exhausted then the other magazines can be used, using said pocketed magazines is a violation of a specifically included portion of the WSB, namely that all mags MUST be carried in a proscribed way UNLESS the WSB specifically tells us to do otherwise. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Mark,easy there --- I'm not suggesting you're making anything up..... Nothing to get easy about, man. I just wanted to remind everyone that we, especially the Moderating Team, prefer to keep rules discussions on an adult and non-personal level. I wouldn't want that sort of misunderstanding, intended or not, to shorten the life of this discussion. That would be a shame as so much useful information has been shared thus far. The phrase, making up a penalty has been used a couple of times and I now hope we've been able to head off any confusion of it being an accurate description of my position. For the record, my stated thoughts on this are genuine. I was asked, as were we all, to offer an opinion. I did, based on what I read in the rulebook. My "Coincidence? I think not...." was intended as a reference to the rulebook writers --- as in if they wanted to define it as inclusive or exclusive they would have..... Perhaps they did want it to reflect a specific and clearly defined set of instances, but that isn't how it reads to me. I maintain that they had an opportunity to work penalty language into 5.2.4 --- as they did in the other two non-Chapter 10 rules I found. Since they omitted that --- I believe a procedural is a stretch.... It may well be a stretch. But the door is also open to see the list as non-inclusive. If it is, as labeled, a list of examples, without further clarification it is just as likely that the list is only a sample of those instances which might earn a procedural penalty. In that case it would not be a stretch to carefully consider what was meant by the inclusion of the words, "...without penalty." When a specific circumstance states that using magazines from a pocket does not earn a penalty, is it so unreasonable to deduce that there are opposing circumstances that would? **FWIW, I've asked John to offer an opinion as to the applicability of a penalty under the circumstances described. With his permission, I'll post his response when received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWord Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 What rule would you site when applying a procedural? (Section 5 is about equipment, not score or penalties.)It's not a "procedure". It is more of an equipment requirement/guideline. There is no documentation on applying a penalty of any sort? You can't just make one up. I agree with Flex on this. This has been a point of dispute since it was put in the book. Other than if the WSB states the mags have to be somewhere else, there is not rule that supports a procedural. It makes no sense the way the language is written and I think it may have been either an oversight or a reversion to a previous rule as it was not stated that way in the Green Book. I think I know why the rule exists, but ...... Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Since I'll have mags in my pocket this weekemd and I ain't use to reaching 3'4th's the way to my ass to get one, this rule/penalty may come into question... Why do you have mags in your ass? That has got to be a FTDR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Once again, 10.2 and it's "examples" do not apply. That is not the governing/master rule in this case. When are procedural penalties imposed? 10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with ***procedures specified*** in a written stage briefing... There is no specific procedure specified in the WSB that relates to the shooter's equipment. (Not in USPSA, anyway. ) It doesn't say to give procedural penalties to "things that are inferred". It is "specific". In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the two examples on penalties that Nik came up with that are not in Section 10 are in conflict with Section 10. However, those two instances are clearly spelled out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Since I'll have mags in my pocket this weekemd and I ain't use to reaching 3'4th's the way to my ass to get one, this rule/penalty may come into question... Why do you have mags in your ass? That has got to be a FTDR! Sould be FTDR for sh#tty typing skills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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