hammer back while holstered at make ready

[mhs]

B> The gun is 'considered' loaded at all times after the MR = so a cocked hammer with out the safety on in the holster would have to result in a DQ.

As far as I can tell 8.2.5 would allow you to reholster an unladed, cocked but not locked 1911.

[CAB33]

At the 2010 FL State match, the staff went so far as to write it into each stage description that thumbing the hammer back in the holster at the MR command would result in a DQ. It was the first time most of us ever heard of such a thing, and I'm sure some guys who frequently do it had to be on their toes.

I shot that match and I never heard that said.

[RAZZ]

At the 2010 FL State match, the staff went so far as to write it into each stage description that thumbing the hammer back in the holster at the MR command would result in a DQ. It was the first time most of us ever heard of such a thing, and I'm sure some guys who frequently do it had to be on their toes.

I shot that match and I never heard that said.

I heard it at each walk through (that I remember--its possible that it wasn't every RO, but when I was paying attention, I heard it), and a friend of mine that ROd the match told me about it the day before the match, as the ROs were briefed before hand. He was surprised and caught off guard, as he does / did the hammer back in the holster thing at MR.

Have not heard it at a match since.

Edited February 15, 2011 by RAZZ

[Thomas H]

B> The gun is 'considered' loaded at all times after the MR = so a cocked hammer with out the safety on in the holster would have to result in a DQ.

As far as I can tell 8.2.5 would allow you to reholster an unladed, cocked but not locked 1911.

1) I'm not sure what rule says that once the Make Ready command has been given, the gun is magically considered loaded. After all, we have to first LOAD it, don't we? MR means the course of fire has started. It does NOT mean that the process of loading has begun, and the gun IS unloaded until that point in time.

From Appendix A3:

"Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the cham- ber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a

magazine inserted in the firearm."

If neither one of those things is true (nothing chambered, nothing in inserted magazine) then it isn't loaded. All the rules that start with "A loaded handgun that..." do not apply.

2)

8.2.5: A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

I note that the wording of 8.2.5 shows that indeed, the gun is NOT considered loaded at all times after the Make Ready command has been given. And it certainly makes it clear that an unloaded firearm may be in any particular condition when holstered, and be allowed by rule.

Interestingly enough, it also means that if a course of fire stipulates an unloaded-but-holstered start (but isn't precise about it), the competitor may start with the unloaded firearm in the holster with the safety off and the hammer back.

All of this is separate from whether or not any of these habits are good ideas---but that is fine. The rules say you can do it. Doesn't matter if we like it or not.

I will say that at a local match, I'd be inclined to pull them aside when they aren't shooting and perhaps mention why it isn't a good idea. But I certainly wouldn't tell them that it was against the rules. It isn't.

[Thomas H]

A 1911 requires a safety on to be considered safe when holstered.

A gun is always loaded.

Never point a gun at something you don't want to destroy.

Um----so after you unload and show clear, then pull the trigger to put the hammer down, you put the safety on before putting your 1911 back in the holster at the end of a course of fire? (Note: I don't shoot 1911s, so I'm actually curious. Matter of fact, none of the handguns I shoot on a normal basis has an external safety. )

[sperman]

Interestingly enough, it also means that if a course of fire stipulates an unloaded-but-holstered start (but isn't precise about it), the competitor may start with the unloaded firearm in the holster with the safety off and the hammer back.

8.1.3 Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different to those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition must be clearly stated in the written stage briefing. When a Handgun Ready Condition requires a handgun be prepared with an empty chamber (or cylinder), the slide of the handgun must be fully forward (or the cylinder must be fully closed) and the hammer or striker must be fully down or fully forward, as the case may be, unless otherwise specified in the stage briefing.

[Paul Santiago]

A 1911 requires a safety on to be considered safe when holstered.

A gun is always loaded.

Never point a gun at something you don't want to destroy.

Um----so after you unload and show clear, then pull the trigger to put the hammer down, you put the safety on before putting your 1911 back in the holster at the end of a course of fire? (Note: I don't shoot 1911s, so I'm actually curious. Matter of fact, none of the handguns I shoot on a normal basis has an external safety. )

No. The thumb safety will only engage with the hammer cocked.

[Thomas H]

8.1.3 Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different to those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition must be clearly stated in the written stage briefing. When a Handgun Ready Condition requires a handgun be prepared with an empty chamber (or cylinder), the slide of the handgun must be fully forward (or the cylinder must be fully closed) and the hammer or striker must be fully down or fully forward, as the case may be, unless otherwise specified in the stage briefing.

[sigh] And I even just read that rule in the book, but apparently my brain wasn't working. Thanks for pointing that out!

Edited to say what I actually meant.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Thomas H

[Thomas H]

A 1911 requires a safety on to be considered safe when holstered.

A gun is always loaded.

Never point a gun at something you don't want to destroy.

Um----so after you unload and show clear, then pull the trigger to put the hammer down, you put the safety on before putting your 1911 back in the holster at the end of a course of fire? (Note: I don't shoot 1911s, so I'm actually curious. Matter of fact, none of the handguns I shoot on a normal basis has an external safety. )

No. The thumb safety will only engage with the hammer cocked.

So it DOESN'T require a safety to be on to be considered safe when holstered? As long as it is unloaded? And since it IS unloaded in the case that this topic is talking about...

[sfinney]

A 1911 with hammer down is not it in a firing condition. As we carry them on a cold range, its known as condition four.

A 1911 with hammer back, saftey off is in Condition Zero (if it had a full magazine and bullet in the chamber). At a range a competitor that cocks his hammer, with no thumb safety engaged and with the pistol holstered may or may not be approaching Condtition Zero as we don't know if his pistol has one in the chamber for certain. (maybe its the first stage? after lunch? he went to bathroom? I have actually seen a competitor arrive at a match, unload their gun at the car, shoot a few stages, load their gun at the car, go to lunch, come back, unload their gun at the car, and then shoot some more stages. Yes it a cold range, but do you really know what everyone is doing between stages?

"Cooper favored the Colt M1911 and its variants. There are several conditions of readiness in which such a weapon can be carried. Cooper promulgated most of the following terms:

Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.

Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.

Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.

Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.

Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.

Some of these configurations are safer than others (for instance, a single action pistol without a firing pin safety such as a transfer bar system should never be carried in Condition 2), while others are quicker to fire the gun (Condition 1). In the interest of consistent training, most agencies that issue the 1911 specify the condition in which it is to be carried as a matter of local doctrine.

This firearm condition system can also be used to refer to other firearm actions, particularly when illustrating the differences between carry modes considered to be safe for various actions. For example, DA/SA is designed to be carried in Condition 2, which is not safe for 1911s without firing pin safeties."

Note none of these conditions address hammer cocked, no magazine, chamber empty, safety off. Its just an odd duck. The closest condition in my mind would be condition zero as the hammer is cocked and the safety is off. No magazine? Sure. Empty chamber? maybe.

Again, I'm not talking about USPSA rules, only gun handing ones. I just don't like the practice of cocking a single action gun in the holster. But thats just me, do it if it makes you feel sporty.

Edited February 15, 2011 by sfinney

[rgkeller]

At the 2010 Florida State Match at least two ROs and the RM did not know the rules regarding this issue.

Several shooters were warned about DQs.

I do not believe anyone was DQed for cocking hammer in holster at MR.

[Skydiver]

To add to the fun, consider the striker fire pistols. In an old thread, I mentioned that there are also some shooters who rack the slide on their Glocks while the gun is still in the holster at the "Make Ready" command.

[Nik Habicht]

Doing it in the holster at the MR and the logic of the DQ as per the rules IS the same as putting it in the holster with out the safety on.

(This is why I _think they have that train of thought.

A> If the gun was drooped after the MR and before the Range is Clear < it would be a DQ

B> The gun is 'considered' loaded at all times after the MR = so a cocked hammer with out the safety on in the holster would have to result in a DQ.

I don't see any other way of interpreting the rules.

But I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer

So don't close the thread too soon

Jamie,

let's look at the rules:

A:

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not.

So for A, it does not matter whether the gun was loaded or not.

B:

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer

cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked.

It may not be smart, but there's nothing in B to hang the DQ on, if the gun is unloaded.....

[bofe954]

I see quite a few DA/SA guys draw at make ready and pull the trigger a time (or two, or four) at targets. They would never be DQ'd for this, so I'm assuming everyone is reacting to the possibility that the gun is loaded and the competitor will have an AD in his/her holster, not that they are going to DQ into the berm during their sight picture.

What is it exactly that makes it so much "less safe" to have an SAO gun cocked with the safety off in the holster than any other type of pistol in it's ready condition?

How many guys shove a loaded glock (or M+P or whatever) with a 2 lb (or less) trigger in their holster every match after make ready? They don't get DQ'd, why would a guy with an SAO gun that is supposed to be unloaded get DQ'd for having his gun in the same condition? Either way if the trigger gets hit somehow and the gun is loaded it will go bang.

I don't do this, but to me if you think this practice is unsafe you should also be arguing for a minimum trigger pull weight like IPSC has.

[AlamoShooter]

Doing it in the holster at the MR and the logic of the DQ as per the rules IS the same as putting it in the holster with out the safety on.

(This is why I _think they have that train of thought.

A> If the gun was drooped after the MR and before the Range is Clear < it would be a DQ

B> The gun is 'considered' loaded at all times after the MR = so a cocked hammer with out the safety on in the holster would have to result in a DQ.

I don't see any other way of interpreting the rules.

But I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer

So don't close the thread too soon

Jamie,

let's look at the rules:

A:

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not.

So for A, it does not matter whether the gun was loaded or not.

B:

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer

cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked.

It may not be smart, but there's nothing in B to hang the DQ on, if the gun is unloaded.....

Yes and No we end up with a Loop Hole in the Rules. At all times after MR and TRIC = the gun is viewed in the rules as loaded if it is dropped -Even if the shooter drops it after the RO says "If Clear Hammer down and holster" if the shooter drops the gun before the Ro says "The Range Is clear" its a DQ.

So I can see an argument both ways from the RO & Match director during arbitration for & against the Shooter that wants to Cock his pistol in the holster.

What do we do as an RO? Any thing said to the shooter is (inappropriate) its a distraction from their best effort on the stage. And that is what we all want a fair chance at every stage with every RO.

What ever happened at this match or that is not the reason to keep the thread open

If we found a loop hole in the Rules the Forum can be productive and seek a fix for it .

Its worth doing rite I posted in the NRIO forum and maybe we will get some help from that end

JF

Edited February 16, 2011 by AlamoShooter

[sperman]

No where in the rules does it make the assumption that the gun is loaded after MR. In fact, 10.5.3 mentions an unloaded gun after make ready. Being DQ'ed for dropping an unloaded gun is covered in the rules. It doesn't mean the gun is assumed to be loaded.

I don't see a loophole.

[Nik Habicht]

Doing it in the holster at the MR and the logic of the DQ as per the rules IS the same as putting it in the holster with out the safety on.

(This is why I _think they have that train of thought.

A> If the gun was drooped after the MR and before the Range is Clear < it would be a DQ

B> The gun is 'considered' loaded at all times after the MR = so a cocked hammer with out the safety on in the holster would have to result in a DQ.

I don't see any other way of interpreting the rules.

But I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer

So don't close the thread too soon

Jamie,

let's look at the rules:

A:

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not.

So for A, it does not matter whether the gun was loaded or not.

B:

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer

cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked.

It may not be smart, but there's nothing in B to hang the DQ on, if the gun is unloaded.....

Yes and No we end up with a Loop Hole in the Rules. At all times after MR and TRIC = the gun is viewed in the rules as loaded if it is dropped -Even if the shooter drops it after the RO says "If Clear Hammer down and holster" if the shooter drops the gun before the Ro says "The Range Is clear" its a DQ.

So I can see an argument both ways from the RO & Match director during arbitration for & against the Shooter that wants to Cock his pistol in the holster.

What do we do as an RO? Any thing said to the shooter is (inappropriate) its a distraction from their best effort on the stage. And that is what we all want a fair chance at every stage with every RO.

What ever happened at this match or that is not the reason to keep the thread open

If we found a loop hole in the Rules the Forum can be productive and seek a fix for it .

Its worth doing rite I posted in the NRIO forum and maybe we will get some help from that end

JF

Jamie,

there's no loophole, there's no inconsistency. In the dropped gun rule we're saying that we do not care if the gun is loaded or not -- it's a DQ in any event. (Think about it -- if the "unloaded" language wasn't in there, a shooter could theoretically drop a gun, pick it up and continue the stage, IF the gun was unloaded at the time -- that's not a call we'd want ROs to be able to make/it could be a very dangerous situation if the dropped gun was in fact loaded. Lots of risk with a dropped gun, risk to the shooter, ROs, squadmates, bystanders, etc.)

The other rule refers specifically to the act of holstering a loaded gun, and imposes certain requirements if a competitor wants to avoid being disqualified. A shooter who walks to the start position, and a make ready cocks the hammer in the holster, can't be dq's because he has not holstered a cocked off safe gun....

Do I love the practice? No. Do I consider it to be unsafe -- yes, because I treat all guns as if they were loaded. Is it as unsafe as dropping a gun between "Make Ready" and "Range is Clear?" Probably not, generally speaking.

I do know that dq'ing a shooter for this practice won't survive arbitration, if the shooter is even half-competent....

[AlamoShooter]

OK Nik, I can see it like that. And during the course of fire I have some kind of a problem = I drop the mag & clear the chamber , point it at a target and drop the hammer on an empty chamber and re-holster my gun ( with-out the safety on ) = just no way they could DQ me for putting it back in my holster with out the safety on.

I do remember hearing in the RO class -it stuck in my head that if the shooter drops the gun after the make-ready before he even puts a mag in the gun - it is a DQ even if the shooter waits for the RO to pick it up.

I would hate to be that RO

[Chris Keen]

OK Nik, I can see it like that. And during the course of fire I have some kind of a problem = I drop the mag & clear the chamber , point it at a target and drop the hammer on an empty chamber and re-holster my gun ( with-out the safety on ) = just no way they could DQ me for putting it back in my holster with out the safety on.

I do remember hearing in the RO class -it stuck in my head that if the shooter drops the gun after the make-ready before he even puts a mag in the gun - it is a DQ even if the shooter waits for the RO to pick it up.

I would hate to be that RO

According to the rule 10.5.14 the RO HAS TO pick up the gun, so you might as well wait! lol

[Nik Habicht]

I do remember hearing in the RO class -it stuck in my head that if the shooter drops the gun after the make-ready before he even puts a mag in the gun - it is a DQ even if the shooter waits for the RO to pick it up.

I remember hearing "lots of stuff" in RO class, during often spirited discussion, as the class tried to wrap their brains around the rulebook....

That very well could have been said, during explanation of that rule.....

The limitation of course is that a particular explanation still needs to link up to a particular rule, and to the rulebook as a cohesive whole. This range officiating thing is a bit of an art form, when done well...

Note: I sat in on the Saturday, lecture portion of a level 1 class last fall. If anyone hasn't been in a while, and there's a class in your vicinity, it's well worth it to attend again...

[AlamoShooter]

Well sometimes Me trying to Wrap My Brain around something is like trying to warp a Xmas gift in the wind

[mpeltier]

A 1911 with hammer down is not it in a firing condition. As we carry them on a cold range, its known as condition four.

A 1911 with hammer back, saftey off is in Condition Zero (if it had a full magazine and bullet in the chamber). At a range a competitor that cocks his hammer, with no thumb safety engaged and with the pistol holstered may or may not be approaching Condtition Zero as we don't know if his pistol has one in the chamber for certain. (maybe its the first stage? after lunch? he went to bathroom? I have actually seen a competitor arrive at a match, unload their gun at the car, shoot a few stages, load their gun at the car, go to lunch, come back, unload their gun at the car, and then shoot some more stages. Yes it a cold range, but do you really know what everyone is doing between stages?

"Cooper favored the Colt M1911 and its variants. There are several conditions of readiness in which such a weapon can be carried. Cooper promulgated most of the following terms:

Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.

Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.

Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.

Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.

Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.

Some of these configurations are safer than others (for instance, a single action pistol without a firing pin safety such as a transfer bar system should never be carried in Condition 2), while others are quicker to fire the gun (Condition 1). In the interest of consistent training, most agencies that issue the 1911 specify the condition in which it is to be carried as a matter of local doctrine.

This firearm condition system can also be used to refer to other firearm actions, particularly when illustrating the differences between carry modes considered to be safe for various actions. For example, DA/SA is designed to be carried in Condition 2, which is not safe for 1911s without firing pin safeties."

Note none of these conditions address hammer cocked, no magazine, chamber empty, safety off. Its just an odd duck. The closest condition in my mind would be condition zero as the hammer is cocked and the safety is off. No magazine? Sure. Empty chamber? maybe.

Again, I'm not talking about USPSA rules, only gun handing ones. I just don't like the practice of cocking a single action gun in the holster. But thats just me, do it if it makes you feel sporty.

Lets consider for a moment that the conditions mentioned above are for actually conditions with or without ammo in the chamber. (Forget for a minute that all guns are considered loaded, we all get that). The condition for a gun chamber empty,no magazine, hammer cocked, manual safety off, would be closest to condition four not zero. And a 1911 thats cocked and off safe still has the grip safety... Maybee we could call this condition three and a half. Any empty chamber condition is a MAYBEE, is it not. The position of the hammer has nothing to do with it. Except maybee for perception sake.

Now as for the Op, if its legal to do it, the RO should know this, if he does not, shame on him if he speaks incorrectly about it. I do not like or condone the practice, and it may well be it should be addressed a little more pointedly in the rules. Not my call.

[Skydiver]

So let' say you were at the 2010 FL Match, you did cock the hammer back in your holster, and you got DQ'd for that action. Presumably, you would appeal to the RO and CRO. They would both say it states is clearly in the WSB that the action would lead to a DQ. You appeal to the RM, but probably won't get anywhere since the WSB text had to be approved by RM. So your next recourse is to file for arbitration.

What relevant rule(s) would you cite as you fill out the arbitration form? I don't know what rule would have been cited for the DQ during that match. I'm guessing the general 10.5 "Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:". As noted near the beginning of this thread, the rule justifying the DQ back in 2009 would have been 10.11.5.1 ( Post #5 http://www.brianenos...dpost&p=1061982 ). Would you cite the exact same rule that was use to DQ you, or cite 1.1.5 "freestyle"?

Another question I have is whether the arbitration request would even be accepted.

11.1.2 Access - Appeals may be submitted to arbitration in accordance with the following rules for any matter except where specifically denied by another rule. Appeals arising from a disqualification for a safety infraction will only be accepted to determine whether exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or appeal. Challenges to the construction or layout of the course, safety, or shooting conditions may not be submitted after the competitor attempts the course of fire. Should a course of fire be changed after the competitor completes the stage, he is entitled to the process under appeals providing that no DQ has occurred.

From the match administration's point of view, a safety infraction was committed by cocking the hammer. What "exceptional circumstances" will you as the DQ'd shooter cite to "warrant reconsideration" by the committee?

Edited February 16, 2011 by Skydiver

[Gary Stevens]

Not too far of a drift but, what if the shooter walks up to the line with his/her hammer back (perhaps they have been dryfiring in the safety area) and it is not noticed by anyone until the MR command is given. By some individuals logic I guess that shooter is automatically DQ'd?

Does the mere presence of a hammer back, saafety off, trigger the DQ or is it the act of cocking it?

We already have a rule that covers a hammer back situation that does not lead to a DQ, why is this thread different?

[sperman]

So let' say you were at the 2010 FL Match, you did cock the hammer back in your holster, and you got DQ'd for that action. Presumably, pou would appeal to the RO and CRO. They would both say it states is clearly in the WSB that the action would lead to a DQ. You appeal to the RM, but probably won't get anywhere since the WSB text had to be approved by RM. So your next recourse is to file for arbitration.

What relevant rule(s) would you cite as you fill out the arbitration form? I don't know what rule would have been cited for the DQ during that match. I'm guessing the general 10.5 "Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:". As noted near the beginning of this thread, the rule justifying the DQ back in 2009 would have been 10.11.5.1 ( Post #5 http://www.brianenos...dpost&p=1061982 ). Would you cite the exact same rule that was use to DQ you, or cite 1.1.5 "freestyle"?

Another question I have is whether the arbitration request would even be accepted.

11.1.2 Access - Appeals may be submitted to arbitration in accordance with the following rules for any matter except where specifically denied by another rule. Appeals arising from a disqualification for a safety infraction will only be accepted to determine whether exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or appeal. Challenges to the construction or layout of the course, safety, or shooting conditions may not be submitted after the competitor attempts the course of fire. Should a course of fire be changed after the competitor completes the stage, he is entitled to the process under appeals providing that no DQ has occurred.

From the match administration's point of view, a safety infraction was committed by cocking the hammer. What "exceptional circumstances" will you as the DQ'd shooter cite to "warrant reconsideration" by the committee?

Theortically, my appeal would start by saying what I did wasn't a safety infraction according to the rulebook, so I should not have been DQ'ed. I would quote 3.2.5. You can't make up new rules by writing them in the WSB.

If the RM refused to hear my appeal, I would be SOL for that match, but you can bet I would write a letter to Amidon and demand my match fee be returned.