JimmyZip Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 There are lots of reasons to avoid the capacity race in Production. Previous shooters investments, legal restrictions, rules stability, and the skills learned from Produciton. Right now there are literally dozens of guns that would be competetive at the top level in Production. The top 16 results from the last couple years do an excellent job showing this. Top shooters with Glock, CZ, Beretta, Sig, Para, Smith & Wesson and different models of each gun. Most folks shoot 9mm in Production but there are also people that shoot .40, .357 Sig, .45 etc. If you open up the capacity restriction you will see the other calibers go away almost completely if you still score minor, just like IPSC. If you go Major/Minor time and again we've seen the advantage of Major. Look to Limited and Single Stack for examples of how the couple extra rounds don't work out to an advantage shooting minor. I would prefer not to take the majority of guns on the Production list and make them obsolete. Also if you allow high caps, what is high cap? Is it the manufacturers spec for the magazine? What you can fit into a factory modified tube? What you can stuff into an unmodified tube? What fits in the box, i.e. IPSC Standard? Who monitors the round count? The RO? Does he have to know the capacity for each and every mag for every gun on the list or do they just have to measure? I'm not making this stuff up. These are all questions that IPSC has had to, and are still dealing with, in Production with high cap mags. They also have issues with approving certain guns with extended base pads, like CZ, Sig and Grand Power. USPSA has really simplified this portion of the division. I shoot Production because I like the challenge of the accuracy, the additional strategy of the reloads and I get to use my favorite platform gun and still be very competetive. I would prefer to avoid any of these suggested changes. I agree completely here. This is the most pertinent and accurate reason behind the 10 round limit. +100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 ... We're just some guys sitting around an internet gunshop solving the problems of the world. Does anyone really care what we say anyway? I doubt it... Ha.... gotta wonder why we say so much of it then ?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 ... We're just some guys sitting around an internet gunshop solving the problems of the world. Does anyone really care what we say anyway? I doubt it... Ha.... gotta wonder why we say so much of it then ?!?! Maku Mozo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 thread drift how about letting sig 220's in single stack they are double action which is not a advantage but it would be a nice place to shoot one if you had one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 thread drifthow about letting sig 220's in single stack they are double action which is not a advantage but it would be a nice place to shoot one if you had one. I can't think of a single reason not to allow it, except that it's not a 1911-pattern pistol. Other than that, it should be good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I'm not advocating any sort of change here... (As I already said once or twice) If it were up to me I would have never allowed striker fired guns in production. With some trigger work you got basically a 3-4lb trigger that is the same every pull and no safety. Everyone gets excited like something we talk about here is going to make a change in how things are done... We're just some guys sitting around an internet gunshop solving the problems of the world. Does anyone really care what we say anyway? I doubt it... JT Don't underestimate the forums power. Many BOD members view the information here and listen. Without the forum, who knows what Production would look like. Admittedly some of the ideas will never come to be for other reasons or lack of a consensus. But a lot of issues can be worked out here ahead of time. As far as not allowing striker fired pistols, why not? It's by far the most popular design of pistol out there, it's attracted hundreds of shooters to USPSA as well as lots of our major new sponsors? I seriously doubt it would be the Smith & Wesson USPSA Nationals without allowing the M&P to play in Production. You can get a lot lower than 3-4 pounds with a Production trigger as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I'm not advocating any sort of change here... (As I already said once or twice) If it were up to me I would have never allowed striker fired guns in production. With some trigger work you got basically a 3-4lb trigger that is the same every pull and no safety. Everyone gets excited like something we talk about here is going to make a change in how things are done... We're just some guys sitting around an internet gunshop solving the problems of the world. Does anyone really care what we say anyway? I doubt it... JT I care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 If you decree that only OEM full-cap mags can be used then any gun that can't muster 17 rounds or more is now uncompetitive. If instead you do it by length or by box, now everyone has to take perfectly good $20-$30 off-the-shelf mags that work fine and gussy 'em up with expensive bases and springs and followers just like we do in the race divisions. The 10rd rule creates a lot of room for diversity in gun selection, keeps mags cheap, and preserves a place where our friends in occupied states can compete on a level field. Please don't mess with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky #7 Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 I'm all for eliminating the 10 round rule in production. I enjoy the challenge and the strategy that the 10 round rule makes, but spending half the time cleaning mags and reloading between stages in a pain in the rear. I've shot the production class since its inception so I've seen it grow and evolve over the years, and I think its time the USPSA eliminated the 10 round rule. Shooting production is a labor of love. I love it, but I don't love how much more work the 10 round rule makes it. I can't be the only one that thinks this way. Eliminating the rule would allow a lot more creativity when shooting a stage. It would also allow us to buy fewer mags and pouches. We also wouldn't need to stack the pouches so tight together behind the hip. I cannot think of reason why eliminating the rule would hurt the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMoore Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 ^ What keeps you from shooting limited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky #7 Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 I don't shoot limited because I have minor caliber equipment that is geared towards and highly competitive in production class. Limited class is for major caliber custom or semi-custom race guns with 140mm mags, mag funnels, and race holsters. Kind of a silly non-productive response Like I said previously I enjoy shooting production, but the 10 round limit makes it a labor of love that forces everyone to relive the Clinton AWB at every match. And as far as I can tell their is no logical reason it exists other than that. Most every commonly used production gun comes standard with at least 15 round capacity, and many have 17 to 19. I enjoyed the strategy and challenge of changing mags, but the side effects of scrambling at a match to clean and reload is getting really old. I expect I'm not alone in this thought. You asked me, "What keeps me from shooting limited?" Well,lets put the shoe on the other foot now. What logical explaination can be made for why we should continue to entertain the 10 round rule? Every opinion offered so far is fairly shallow. And by that I mean they seem to just be resistent to change rather than making a viable argument. Negative arguments so far: 1) Some states only allow 10 rounds. (There are 50 states. The vast majority allow full cap mags.) 2) But I would have to go buy mags. (this is a bunch of malarky. You know you bought full cap mags the second the Clinton AWB sunsetted just to spite the gun haters, and if you didn't its about time you did.) 3) It will limit the number of guns that shoot in the division. (no it won't. you can shoot what ever caliber you want to. you can also shoot whatever gun you want provided it is on the list. lets be realistic though most people shoot 9mm guns with mags that hold 15 to 18 rounds so lets stop missing the forest for the trees.) To me none of these arguments adequately explain why the 10 rule hasn't been eliminated. Also, in order for the production class to continue to grow and evolve this rule will need to be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Also, in order for the production class to continue to grow and evolve this rule will need to be changed. When growth in Production stagnates, we can consider changing the rules..... As long as it's growing, let's leave it alone..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IC_Cyclone Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Here's hoping it stays the same. I think Production is a great starting division for new shooters like me...relatively cheap equipment that tends to run without a gunsmith on retainer, 9mm is inexpensive for us yet-to-be reloaders, minor scoring provides excellent(and sometimes painful) reinforcement/feedback on the importance of aiming each shot, I get to practice lots of reloads and have to analyze/strategize a COF accordingly. Sometimes its important to review and modify rules, and changes can be beneficial. For me though its a lot more fun picking a game, accepting the rules, and putting my effort into improving and figuring out how to win. Where I'm at in my shooting right now, I'd rather my times get better because I'm getting faster at reloads, not because the rules changed so that I don't need to reload as often. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky #7 Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Both good points; however, they still don't address why removing the 10 round rule would negatively impact the division. Nik: If you want to grow the division loosen up the 10 round rule and it will grow even more. What have you got to loose that you hold onto the 10 round rule so tightly? Not being imflamatory here, but I'm curious why? The rule complicates the division for new shooters and requires them to buy more mags and pounches than if they could load full. They also spend a lot of time cleaning and loading mags instead of focusing on safety and learning stage strategy. Seems counter intuitive to me. I've been shooting production since its beginning and I held onto the 10 round rule tightly for years, but a few months ago I started thinking about it more and realized that it really serves no purpose as far as I can tell but to force me to scramble to clean twice as many mags. Cyclone: I agree with you. I like production for the same reasons you do, and I want it to stay the same EXCEPT for the 10 round rule. Keep in mind that you can continue to load up 10 and change mags as often as you like if you want to regardless of what the rest of us do. BTW everyone else would get faster with less reloads so your ability to measure your progress accurately would remain intact. However, you would have more time to think at a match because you wouldn't be cleaning mags like crazy and reloading them constantly. I think you would find that you would improve faster if you spent less time scrambling. Cheap guns, cheap mags, cheap ammo, minor scoring, and stage strategy are all great aspects of production, and probably the most compelling reason to shoot the class. However, how would allowing us to load our mags to full capacity change any of this? The only explaination that I have been able to glean is that everyone likes reloading so much that they accept all the side effects like scrambling to clean and load mags, and having to carry 5 mags on a 29 round cof. After 10 years of this i'm tired of scrambling. Let us load'em up full so we can have more fun and less messing around. What's it going to hurt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Don't like cleaning mags between stages, that has to be the best reason I've heard to change the Production Div rules on capacity. It maybe better if we mandate all ranges change their range surfaces to one that won't get your mags dirty. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMoore Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 silly non-productive......no logical reason Every opinion offered so far is fairly shallow. Your mind is cemented enough, by how you view the other side, its not worth trying to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 (edited) I'm not advocating any sort of change here... (As I already said once or twice) If it were up to me I would have never allowed striker fired guns in production. With some trigger work you got basically a 3-4lb trigger that is the same every pull and no safety. Everyone gets excited like something we talk about here is going to make a change in how things are done... We're just some guys sitting around an internet gunshop solving the problems of the world. Does anyone really care what we say anyway? I doubt it... JT Don't underestimate the forums power. Many BOD members view the information here and listen. Without the forum, who knows what Production would look like. Admittedly some of the ideas will never come to be for other reasons or lack of a consensus. But a lot of issues can be worked out here ahead of time. As far as not allowing striker fired pistols, why not? It's by far the most popular design of pistol out there, it's attracted hundreds of shooters to USPSA as well as lots of our major new sponsors? I seriously doubt it would be the Smith & Wesson USPSA Nationals without allowing the M&P to play in Production. You can get a lot lower than 3-4 pounds with a Production trigger as well. Chuck, I guess I'm old school in the regard of steel guns with hammers... A true DA gun with a heavier first pull and follow up with whatever. You have to become accustomed to two separate and different trigger actions. IMHO I think it less likely to AD (when modified) the thing while holstering too, not that that is here or there, but just my opinion. I don't want to roll back the clocks and I think the progression has been good for the sport. People might take note as they get upset about some new rule, possibly, causing an arms race. Is that not what happened when striker guns were allowed? It was good that they are some of the most reasonable priced guns out there, but I'm sure at the time, there were people not happy about having to buy another gun, mags etc. Yes, there still are some non striker guns being used, but not a bunch. Most people have tripped the light fanplastic. Take it all with a grain and I don't want to debate about it, it's just one guys opinion... and we know what opinions are like right? JT Edited October 4, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 People might take note as they get upset about some new rule, possibly, causing an arms race. Is that not what happened when striker guns were allowed? It was good that they are some of the most reasonable priced guns out there, but I'm sure at the time, there were people not happy about having to buy another gun, mags etc. Yes, there still are some non striker guns being used, but not a bunch. Most people have tripped the light fanplastic. JT Ummmm, let's see --- Glock introduced sometime in the 1980s, Production created/launched in 2001.... Striker fired guns have been part of production since the beginning..... I'm pretty sure the S&W Sigma, and the original (Croatian?) XD (prior to Springfield importing it) were on the list early on along with Kahrs..... The XD took off after Springfield started putting it out, the M&P came along later..... Basically they fixed the Glock "problem" for a certain antiquated subset of the population..... :roflol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky #7 Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Don't think that i'm not open or flexible because i am. However, i think it is time for some healthy debate on the 10 round limit. Lets discuss why it exists, and why we should keep it around. I've playing the production game for years and years now, and I think its time to change the rule. Change is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 (edited) Don't think that i'm not open or flexible because i am. However, i think it is time for some healthy debate on the 10 round limit. Lets discuss why it exists, and why we should keep it around. I've playing the production game for years and years now, and I think its time to change the rule.Change is good. There have been many well articulated reasons given as to why the 10 rd limit, why it should stay and many more opinions as to number of people who are voting with their participation in production as it is. In reading the thread it seems that none of those reasons overcomes the burden you seem to carry when cleaning mags in between stages. If I recall correctly many of the folks who shoot production on this board have mentioned that the cheap mags allow them to have plenty so that it is never absolutely necessary to scramble and clean at each stage. Change for a purpose CAN be good, changing simply for one or two peoples convenience generally goes sideways pretty quickly. Edited October 4, 2009 by smokshwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky #7 Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 I understand and respect all of the points of view expressed so far. I've consistently heard gripping for years at matches about the 10 round rule, and I've argued FOR it many times. Lately it is just making less and less sense to me. Why 10 rounds? Why not 8 or 12 or 15? would increasing the limit to 12 or 15 cause any issues? and if so... why? Also, i know you mentioned that their are some well articulated posts for the limit, but when I read them they have a bottom line statement that is says they want 10 because that's what they want. To me it's the USPSA version of restrictor plate racing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Restrictor plate racing. That's a pretty good analogy. That's exactly what it is to me. A Division where equipment matters less than the shooter using it. The 10 round rule allows just about any gun to be competetive in the Divsion, 9mm, .40 or .45. I've shot with guys on the Super Squad using each caliber. If they're using it at the top it can't be that bad of a set up. Open up the capacity limits and only certain guns become competetive. Anything with under 16 rounds will require way more reloads due to common 8 rounds target arrays. And there aren't that many 16 round .40 guns out there. So you will obslete a whole group of peoples current equipment for no real advantage. It's also a lot easier for me to explain to people that it's limited to 10 rounds than to explain that only 9mm's are competetive, and then only certain full size 9mm's. I just got done shooting an IPSC match with the mags loaded all the way up in Production. It was kind of boring. Never more than one reload per stage with my 19 round CZ mags. Didn't really have to worry about stage planning all that much. Didn't clean any of my mags either this match or the USPSA match the day before when I was only loading 10. As far as 10, that's the highest allowed in certain states, it's easier for the RO's to count, there are still competitors using 10 round mags so why make their gear non competetive, and it's what the current rule is. Why change it just to change it. I still haven't seen a good reason to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 why not poll the production shooters to find out what the majority would like the rule to be i would bet the majority would want to load them up to max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 why not poll the production shooters to find out what the majority would like the rule to bei would bet the majority would want to load them up to max I would be surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 I don't shoot production, I never could figure out the 10 round rule in Producton, because of the Limited 10 division. I guess I thought it was covered, so why restrict it in another division. I always thought, and confirmed with my friends who don't compete, why would I spend another $100 or more for equipment to shoot USPSA, I just spent $600 or more for a good Production gun. Thing comes with 2 mags, a couple pouches, and a holster, still not enough to compete. Just makes it hard for a single income family guy to partake, therefore he doesn't. Kinda hard to spend that money, had to save a long while just to get the gun. Why not just make Limited 10 the only 10 round division and open it up to the guns currently being run in Production? Production stays the same, except the 10 round rule, and maybe add a length limit to the magazines if not already there. lucky#7 I reread all the posts and confirmed to myself what you have stated in your last post. I see no real logic, just a general fear of change. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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