BritinUSA Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 +1 That should have gone to arbitration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ammowaster Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I have no idea if he arbed or not. He looked pretty upset. Basically the RO turned around after he holstered and when he looked back shooter was sighting through the port and racked the slide. We had one shooter on our squad get called for 180 and he got a re shoot after the RO's story changed Also saw a shooter get a reshoot on a stage that he had to shoot some poppers multiple times. Weird stuff for my first nationals. Other than a few instances the staff was awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 We had one shooter on our squad get called for 180 and he got a re shoot after the RO's story changed Was that on squad 1 ? I saw someone get DQ'ed on Stage 11 for the draw-thing. He was left-handed, next thing I saw he was re-instated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 ...Was there a stage with 11 DQs? Something is seriously wrong here! With the exception of that stage, the ROs did a good job. ... There is nothing wrong there, just because 11 people can't turn THEN draw. Second hand info, or even third now I guess, but someone reportedly got DQ'd on that stage because of their canted holster. The muzzle broke the 180 even though the shooter was drawing passed it. I too think it is odd that there was a high number of folks that go disqualified on a single stage. We should all be use to the "turn then draw" by now. Were all the RO's at Nationals certified USPSA RO's even those with the clip board? Out of those 11 DQ's on that stage, was the same person calling all of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUKE Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Sounds to me like you better have your stuff together when you go to the nationals. So I am working on getting mine together! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 ...Was there a stage with 11 DQs? Something is seriously wrong here! With the exception of that stage, the ROs did a good job. ... There is nothing wrong there, just because 11 people can't turn THEN draw. Second hand info, or even third now I guess, but someone reportedly got DQ'd on that stage because of their canted holster. The muzzle broke the 180 even though the shooter was drawing passed it. I too think it is odd that there was a high number of folks that go disqualified on a single stage. We should all be use to the "turn then draw" by now. Were all the RO's at Nationals certified USPSA RO's even those with the clip board? Out of those 11 DQ's on that stage, was the same person calling all of them? Please, let's not get into innuendo...even moreso based off of second hand reports. With 11 DQ's, that is 11 opportunities to appeal to the CRO...11 opportunities to appeal to the RM...11 opportunities to appeal to arbitration committee...along with any unofficial discussions...I'd think the match would be the place to resolve any perceived issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clown Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 We watched one guy doing a "accelerated walkthrough" (I think that is what is was called)RO took him up to the line and had him un bag his gun. Gun was holstered and RO said to let him know when he was ready. Shooter drew his gun and took a sight picture. DQ'ed because the make ready command had not been given. I cant remember what stage but it was one of the first few. I felt bad for the guy Although I wasn't DQ'd, this situation happened to me at an area match a few years ago. He used a similar phrase with the word "ready in it" and I loaded the gun. After the run, he pulled me to the side and said he had not given the make ready command and that I could have been DQ'd. I thanked him and carried on. Now I ask the RO to repeat the command just to be on the safe side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 11 DQ's11 opportunities to appeal to the CRO... 11 opportunities to appeal to the RM... 11 opportunities to appeal to arbitration committee... And Stage 11 Match started with sign-in on Sept 11 There's some number thing going on. Now, I can't speak of the 11 DQs. However, a friend of mine, on my squad, got DQed on that stage. After appealing to the RM, the RO stated that he did not see the gun break the 180, but assumed that it was drawn prior to turning because of the shooter's arm motion. Several of us saw the action and did not think he drew before turning. He was reinstated since the RO did not see the infraction. I can say that the rest of us on that stage made very sure we turned then draw. That was one of my slowest draw in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Having an RO stand on the 180 line watching your holster sounds like someone who is looking for an opportunity to DQ shooters. I was taught in RO class that it is our job to help the shooters have a safe and fair match. It wasn't our job to find any and every opportunity to yell "gotcha!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergie Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Were all the RO's at Nationals certified USPSA RO's even those with the clip board? Out of those 11 DQ's on that stage, was the same person calling all of them? Appendix A1 Certified CRO and minimum 1 Certified RO are mandatory on each stage at Nationals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Having an RO stand on the 180 line watching your holster sounds like someone who is looking for an opportunity to DQ shooters. I was taught in RO class that it is our job to help the shooters have a safe and fair match. It wasn't our job to find any and every opportunity to yell "gotcha!" Having the RO stand on the 180 also sounds like an RO who is trying to do a good job in making sure the 180 is respected, from a vantage that will provide the best indication if this rule is broken. It isn't the ROs job to find any and every opportunity to yell "gotcha"...it is his or her job to make sure in every instance that essential safety rules are respected and applied correctly. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Two of my friends, two great shooters got DQ'd on stage 11. I've heard stories, they're not pretty and better left unsaid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Having an RO stand on the 180 line watching your holster sounds like someone who is looking for an opportunity to DQ shooters. I was taught in RO class that it is our job to help the shooters have a safe and fair match. It wasn't our job to find any and every opportunity to yell "gotcha!" It is the RO's job to watch out for safety. I preach to RO's to cover the angles for safety. That means being in position to see if the 180 is broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blownhemi Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Don't know who this guy is but it sure looks like a 180 break to me. Turn, then draw. Not really that hard a concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) Having an RO stand on the 180 line watching your holster sounds like someone who is looking for an opportunity to DQ shooters. I was taught in RO class that it is our job to help the shooters have a safe and fair match. It wasn't our job to find any and every opportunity to yell "gotcha!" It is the RO's job to watch out for safety. I preach to RO's to cover the angles for safety. That means being in position to see if the 180 is broken. I agree. But what if the RO stands in this spot for certain shooters and then stands elsewhere (maybe non-gun side) for other shooters? Would this be reasonable and fair for all shooters? I'm not accusing this RO of this....just asking. Edited September 22, 2009 by jasmap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) Having an RO stand on the 180 line watching your holster sounds like someone who is looking for an opportunity to DQ shooters. I was taught in RO class that it is our job to help the shooters have a safe and fair match. It wasn't our job to find any and every opportunity to yell "gotcha!" Two of my friends, two great shooters got DQ'd on stage 11. I've heard stories, they're not pretty and better left unsaid. I mentioned this in another thread, when you have someone specifically looking for a problem as their sole duty (which there was on this stage) then sometimes they find the problem where none may have existed. So although I agree in principle with what Flex mentioned in trying to position yourself as an RO to maintain a good viewing vantage point, I disagree in assigning an RO to watch a specific point/action in an effort to "catch" infractions. As to the video in the above thread, I am glad you don't RO me. As is usually the case making secondhand calls from the bleachers you don't have a good vantage point in the video to the relationship of the gun vs. the 180. Secondly even though it may appear that the gun is out of the holster before the 180, maybe a review of 10.5.6 is in order. It specifically gives you a 6 foot circle around your feet to draw in. Edited September 22, 2009 by smokshwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blownhemi Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Obviously USPSA has a looser interpretation of 180 than IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Obviously USPSA has a looser interpretation of 180 than IPSC. 2nd thread, same crap. I'll be shocked if you last on this site to see 100 posts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blownhemi Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Why, because I'm speaking the truth? Is that a banning offense on this site? Or is a low post count some indication that I'm some kind of armchair shooter? ShokShwn quotes some rule at me (I don't have a USPSA book so it's irrelevant to me) and reckons that the 6 foot rule excuses whatever the shooter does on the draw is okay as long as he keeps the muzzle within that six foot. Well the RO is standing within that circle on this stage and I can guarantee he's not going to be happy if a gun is pointed at his toes regardless of some 6-foot circle. Where I shoot, you draw a gun while facing up range and you'll be going home. Turn before you draw - As I said before it's a pretty simple concept and it seems at least 11 shooters at the match didn't grasp that concept. RO's don't DQ shooters, shooters DQ themselves through unsafe gun handling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinj308 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Here's the book, http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2008HandgunRulesindexed.pdf, it's particularly relevant to the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Why, because I'm speaking the truth? Is that a banning offense on this site? Or is a low post count some indication that I'm some kind of armchair shooter?ShokShwn quotes some rule at me (I don't have a USPSA book so it's irrelevant to me) and reckons that the 6 foot rule excuses whatever the shooter does on the draw is okay as long as he keeps the muzzle within that six foot. Well the RO is standing within that circle on this stage and I can guarantee he's not going to be happy if a gun is pointed at his toes regardless of some 6-foot circle. Where I shoot, you draw a gun while facing up range and you'll be going home. Turn before you draw - As I said before it's a pretty simple concept and it seems at least 11 shooters at the match didn't grasp that concept. RO's don't DQ shooters, shooters DQ themselves through unsafe gun handling. Actually, it's against the rules to draw while facing uprange - the 6' rule does not apply. as for the video, it looks fine to me. He drew after he turned - the 6' rule does come into play here. (actually I think it's 3 feet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Secondly even though it may appear that the gun is out of the holster before the 180, maybe a review of 10.5.6 is in order. It specifically gives you a 6 foot circle around your feet to draw in. I must be missing something here. 10.5.6 states "While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while drawing or re-holstering." I understood that rule to cover the fact that, when facing downrange, due to the cant of the holster and the draw stroke the gun may be pointing slightly uprange as it is pulled from the holster. I don't see how it applies to this discussion on the 180, which is a different set of issues. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Secondly even though it may appear that the gun is out of the holster before the 180, maybe a review of 10.5.6 is in order. It specifically gives you a 6 foot circle around your feet to draw in. I must be missing something here. 10.5.6 states "While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while drawing or re-holstering." I understood that rule to cover the fact that, when facing downrange, due to the cant of the holster and the draw stroke the gun may be pointing slightly uprange as it is pulled from the holster. I don't see how it applies to this discussion on the 180, which is a different set of issues. Curtis It applies because as soon as the shooter begins to turn he is no longer "facing uprange" per the definition. At that point he is still drawing the pistol. The above rule takes over allowing the shooter a 3 foot radius (6 foot diameter) of leeway for the muzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Why, because I'm speaking the truth? Is that a banning offense on this site? Or is a low post count some indication that I'm some kind of armchair shooter?ShokShwn quotes some rule at me (I don't have a USPSA book so it's irrelevant to me) and reckons that the 6 foot rule excuses whatever the shooter does on the draw is okay as long as he keeps the muzzle within that six foot. Well the RO is standing within that circle on this stage and I can guarantee he's not going to be happy if a gun is pointed at his toes regardless of some 6-foot circle. Where I shoot, you draw a gun while facing up range and you'll be going home. Turn before you draw - As I said before it's a pretty simple concept and it seems at least 11 shooters at the match didn't grasp that concept. RO's don't DQ shooters, shooters DQ themselves through unsafe gun handling. You aren't speaking the truth. The fact is the USPSA rules govern the match and that makes them very relevant, regardless of your personal displeasure about being wrong. What is irrelevant is how the rules work where you shoot because they simply don't apply to the discussion at hand. If you would bother to watch the video you might notice that no less than two of the stage RO's were watching that shooter and did not DQ him. These are the same RO's that made the 11 calls that you wholeheartedly support. Decide which road you want to drive on, either the RO's in question made good calls and the above video is safe or the RO's in question can't see a DQ right in front of them in which case the other calls on the stage can be brought in to question. The rule I cited does not allow gratis unsafe gun handling. It allows that the firearm can be drawn safely with the muzzle pointing at the ground within a 3 foot radius (6 foot diameter) of the shooters feet. Any other unsafe actions would be covered by other rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 11 DQ's on stage 11. RO was calling a DQ if you just started to break the gun from holster and trigger guard was not even exposed. Saftey voliations can not be abritrated or challanged. How can you have a the 180 be 90 deg from the backstop berm when there was not one on the first place? The only one to be over turned was due to arb'ing that the stage was not legal per rule 2.1.4 and for some reason the arb commettie reinstated the shooter but they would not reinstate any others that did the same thing early in the match. Several bad calls IMHO, as well as, several very experianced CRO's and RM's and RMI's that I spoke with. MDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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